Job decision

[maggieddd]

Currently I commute 50 miles one way to work. I was just offered a new job 5 minutes from my house. The job I am currently in pays more by about $2,000, has excellent benefits (the health coverage only costs me $64/month for family plan, I got 4 weeks paid vacations which I can carry over forever so at the moment I have 2.5 months vacation, 4 personal days, 2 weeks sick time, 13 holidays, my employer chips in 9% for to my 401K regardless of what I put in, I get free classes at state colleges and universities, I will get longevity pay in 1.5 years and many other benefits). The new job offers only 3 weeks vacation, 2 personal days, 10 sick days, the same amount of holidays, health coverage is $400/month plus $30/month dental, the employer chips in 5% to my retirement, I can take classes up to $2000/semester for work related courses. So the difference in pay is about $5,000.
Of course I trying to decide whether I should take the new job or not. What would you do in my situation?

P.S. I should probably mention that I like driving and do not mind the commute. I drive a hybrid vehicle so the gasoline does not cost me as much, but there is still wear and tear on it.

My head hurts

 

[REWahoo]

P.S. I should probably mention that I like driving and do not mind the commute.

With the information you provided, the above quote might be a key to your decision. Seems like you will trade $5,000/yr for ~2 hrs a day of your time. Worth it? You have to make that call.

You provide us with a comparison of the salary and fringe benefits but don't say anything about the relative merits of the jobs. Any pluses or minuses in your working environment or career opportunity by taking the new position?

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

With the information you provided, the above quote might be a key to your decision. Seems like you will trade $5,000/yr for ~2 hrs a day of your time. Worth it? You have to make that call.

So, if Maggiedd works 48 weeks a year, 5 days a week, that is 2 hrs x 5 days x 48 wks = 480 hours a year spent in the car (she may not "mind" the commute, but I am sure would rather be doing something else). But I'm seeing $4032 savings per year on health insurance alone at the old job. So the total difference is probably more than $5k, more like 8K per year.

Hard to put a price on what it's worth to you to have 2 hours a day more at home (that's 13% of your waking hours ).

When my kids were at home and little, I probably would have opted for the shorter commute. Now, I'd probably stick it out at the old job, plug in my iPod, learn Spanish, books-on-tape, and enjoy the ride.

BTW - if the old job gets you to FIRE even a few months sooner, you'll make up those road-hours real fast.

 

[maggieddd]

With the information you provided, the above quote might be a key to your decision.  Seems like you will trade $5,000/yr for ~2 hrs a day of your time.  Worth it?  You have to make that call.

You provide us with a comparison of the salary and fringe benefits but don't say anything about the relative merits of the jobs.  Any pluses or minuses in your working environment or career opportunity by taking the new position?

there will be more chances of advancement at the new position as I will be working at a university and I will be learning new skills.  Currently I work for a small office with about 30 people, not many chances of ad.  I have my own office right now, I would be working in a cubicle at the now job.  People are nice at my current job and I am pretty much my own boss as I am the only technology person here.  At the new job I will be working in a team and reporting to other tech people.  

 

[maggieddd]

So, if Maggiedd works 48 weeks a year, 5 days a week, that is 2 hrs x 5 days x 48 wks = 480 hours a year spent in the car (she may not "mind" the commute, but I am sure would rather be doing something else). But I'm seeing $4032 savings per year on health insurance alone at the old job. So the total difference is probably more than $5k, more like 8K per year.

Hard to put a price on what it's worth to you to have 2 hours a day more at home (that's 13% of your waking hours ).

When my kids were at home and little, I probably would have opted for the shorter commute. Now, I'd probably stick it out at the old job, plug in my iPod, learn Spanish, books-on-tape, and enjoy the ride.

BTW - if the old job gets you to FIRE even a few months sooner, you'll make up those road-hours real fast.

what about the vacation time I get now? I think it's worth to me much more than extra hours I would gain at home every day, because honestly I would be getting home at the same time as the new job is from 9-5 and the old job is from 8-4. And the extra hour in the morning I will just probably waste on sleeping :

 

[SteveR]

Based on your reply so far.....stay in your current job. Living in a cube farm s*cks after being in an office and reporting to a group of people rather than just one can be a jolting experience and one you may live to regret.

How much longer do you need to work to FIRE? That could also be a major issue in either job.

Remember,

The Devil you know is better than the Devil you don't.

Change for the sake of change can be good but it can also put you in a far worse situation. If the financial impact is also worse in the new job you may very well live to regret saving a couple hours of "self improvement" time a day.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

what about the vacation time I get now? I think it's worth to me much more than extra hours I would gain at home every day, because honestly I would be getting home at the same time as the new job is from 9-5 and the old job is from 8-4. And the extra hour in the morning I will just probably waste on sleeping :

Maggie, I think you've decided, and I think it's a good decision. Enjoy.

BTW, time spent sleeping is never a waste . One of life's great art forms. My DW is jealous of very few things I can do that she can't, but power-sleeping and napping are among them.

 

[maggieddd]

Based on your reply so far.....stay in your current job.  Living in a cube farm s*cks after being in an office and reporting to a group of people rather than just one can be a jolting experience and one you may live to regret. 

How much longer do you need to work to FIRE?  That could also be a major issue in either job. 

Remember,

The Devil you know is better than the Devil you don't. 

Change for the sake of change can be good but it can also put you in a far worse situation.  If the financial impact is also worse in the new job you may very well live to regret saving a couple hours of "self improvement" time a day.

I am 28 years old so I have a long way to go.

I am leaning towards staying in my current job the only thing I am worried about is that I am not learning any more skills which might be bad if I was ever to look for another job.

Anyway, I have to let them know whether I take the new job or not probably today

 

[maggieddd]

Do you think this is a good thing to write:


I appreciate your offer and I know I would contribute to meeting your goals but when I reviewed the salary and the benefits I realized that the impact on my financial situation wouldn’t be favorable. Unfortunately, I will not be able to accept this postion.

Thank you

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Sounds OK to me.

An alternative would be to call them asking if that is the best offer they can give you, verbally. Then just a nice letter telling them how great they are but at this time you have decided to stay with your current position, hope our paths cross, etc. without mentioning the money (after all, if they offered a bit more you might still not take the position). They'll get the message

I'm being picky here, but have hired alot of folks but it's always best when a recruit comes across as subtle about the money thing until necessary.

Glad to hear of your wise decision.

 

[SteveR]

Sounds OK to me.

An alternative would be to call them asking if that is the best offer they can give you, verbally. Then just a nice letter telling them how great they are but at this time you have decided to stay with your current position, hope our paths cross, etc. without mentioning the money (after all, if they offered a bit more you might still not take the position). They'll get the message

I'm being picky here, but have hired alot of folks but it's always best when a recruit comes across as subtle about the money thing until necessary.

Glad to  hear of your wise decision.

I agree with Rich's comment too.
People who want to quibble about small amounts of money as the only issue in a potential hiring situation cause some red flags to appear. Sure money is a major consideration but it is not the only one. If we are close in $$ and that is the only issue, I am sure we can find a way to an agreement in most cases. But honesty is a big deal for me and trying to squeeze out another few $$$ in salary makes me think less of the candidate. Real benefit issues, stock options, large wage differences, relocation packages, etc. are solid issues that can make or break a hiring deal. A few $$ is just petty to me.

Candidates that decline a job for "gray area" reasons get their resume filed in the circular floor file pretty quick.

 

[Zipper]

Maggie DDD, could we have some pictures!

 

[maggieddd]

Maggie DDD, could we have some pictures!

of?

 

[Nords]

Maggie DDD, could we have some pictures!

Ya know, Zip, that "DDD" acronym could stand for a lot of other things besides what you're apparently thinking of...

like
data display debugger,
dynamic digital depth, or
dichlorodiphenyldichloroethane.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

One interesting thing I noted from hiring a few hundred people. Women either took the first offer or rejected it. Guys always asked for more pay and/or bonus. We usually kicked up the offer by 10-20%. I always wondered if that didnt have something to do with the pay gap between men and women.

The usual HR routine is to gauge the marketplace and what current employees at similar jobs are making and offer some average middling figure. Its almost always flexible, at least a little bit.

 

[Brat]

One interesting thing I noted from hiring a few hundred people.  Women either took the first offer or rejected it.  Guys always asked for more pay and/or bonus.  We usually kicked up the offer by 10-20%.  I always wondered if that didnt have something to do with the pay gap between men and women.

The usual HR routine is to gauge the marketplace and what current employees at similar jobs are making and offer some average middling figure.  Its almost always flexible, at least a little bit.

Well said. HR folks, pour a tall one and read the two DOL Notices in the June 19 Federal Register about their approach to compensation analysis. My comments are included in their footnotes.

 

[Spanky]

One interesting thing I noted from hiring a few hundred people. Women either took the first offer or rejected it.

Interesting observation - my wife always takes the first offer and never bargain for more.

 

[Caroline]

Don't know if you've rejected the job yet but thought I'd add a comment...

My sister drives... er... used to drive a very small Hyundai. I assume your hybrid is equally small and light.

This weekend she got t-boned by a huge pickup. Fortunately for her he nailed her just BEHIND the driver's door, and she had (unbeknownst to her!) a car with a side airbag. Apart from a neck-ache, she's ok.

The entire back end of her car, on the other hand, is unrecognizable. And parts of it were found hundreds of yards away. If she'd been one nanosecond later through that intersection, we'd be burying what we could find of her this week.

We've been reminded that you risk more than small increments of time when you spend long hours behind the wheel.

FWIW,
Caroline

 

[vic]

One interesting thing I noted from hiring a few hundred people. Women either took the first offer or rejected it. Guys always asked for more pay and/or bonus. We usually kicked up the offer by 10-20%. I always wondered if that didnt have something to do with the pay gap between men and women.

I guess I am not typical female then. Even though I was being RIF'ed at the time, I still rejected the offer until they got the $$$$ up.

Maggie, stay where you are. 'Teamwork', bosses and cubes are hell. I might even go back to work if I could get myself a job that you currently have.

Still, I would not completely reject the other party. I would still leave it open for the future. Just have a nice chat and say that because of some personal circumstances or whatever you can not take it at this time but that it was a very difficult decision blah blah blah.

Vicky

 

[maggieddd]

I have an update
After writing a nice email telling them that I would not be able to take the position I was asked to call them for a chat. So I did that on Monday evening and I was asked about the reasons for my rejection and what they would have to do in order to make me take the job. Well, I asked for extra $$$$ to cover the difference in health insurance cost and also I told them that I already had vacation booked for 1 month and they would have to let me take the time off. I was told they would get back to me and they did. But they asked me to call them. Well, I got nervous and I didn't call them yesterday. I know I have to call them today. I am nervous because I am afraid that they would agree to my terms but I am so sure that I don't want to take the job any more. I only asked for $5,000 more.
Ahh, what should I do if they agree to pay more?

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

I have an update ...Ahh, what should I do if they agree to pay more?

Had to smile when I read your update. I think you have to have a chat with yourself.

While your ambivalence is understandable, you did negotiate in good faith, right? And you did state your expectations quite explicitly, right? So if they meet your self-inflicted terms and you don't take the job, you will really be tap dancing to maintain your integrity.

Feels to me like what's really knotting you up is change itself. Personally I feel strongly about good faith in negotiating. You can be tough, you can win or you can lose. But if the other party steps up to the plate and meets all of your terms, and you then back out, I would have a hard time negotiating with you in the future -- I'd never know when you will be good to your word. Just my view.

OTOH, it's your life and you have to be comfortable with the job. Change is hard, but can be valuable, too. Good luck.

 

[maggieddd]

Had to smile when I read your update. I think you have to have a chat with yourself.

While your ambivalence is understandable, you did negotiate in good faith, right? And you did state your expectations quite explicitly, right? So if they meet your self-inflicted terms and you don't take the job, you will really be tap dancing to maintain your integrity.

Feels to me like what's really knotting you up is change itself. Personally I feel strongly about good faith in negotiating. You can be tough, you can win or you can lose. But if the other party steps up to the plate and meets all of your terms, and you then back out, I would have a hard time negotiating with you in the future -- I'd never know when you will be good to your word. Just my view.

OTOH, it's your life and you have to be comfortable with the job. Change is hard, but can be valuable, too. Good luck.

Yes, I know it's me. 
The thing is, I was told yesterday that there is no free parking or I could park for $8.00/day or of course bike or take the T.  If I did drive that's additional $1,900 a day.  Quite a lot.  If I take the T will be less but still there is a cost to it.  I was not figuring that out in my initial calculations.

 

[REWahoo]

Ahh, what should I do if they agree to pay more?

Chances are they won't initially offer you all you asked for. And if you say "no" to their offer of compromise, be prepared for them to say, "OK, we will give you what you want."

Then you will really understand the wisdom of the old adage, "Be careful what you ask for..."

Good luck on your decision.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Chances are they won't initially offer you all you asked for. And if you say "no" to their offer of compromise, be prepared for them to say, "OK, we will give you what you want."

It's getting awkward here: she already made her counter offer and they accepted as I understand it. Now she has to say that her own terms are still not acceptable and she wants more. Not looking real slick from the prospective employers perspective if she chooses to do that .

Or do I misunderstand?

As the world turns...

 

[saluki9]

One interesting thing I noted from hiring a few hundred people. Women either took the first offer or rejected it. Guys always asked for more pay and/or bonus. We usually kicked up the offer by 10-20%. I always wondered if that didnt have something to do with the pay gap between men and women.

The usual HR routine is to gauge the marketplace and what current employees at similar jobs are making and offer some average middling figure. Its almost always flexible, at least a little bit.

Funny, my brother in law did a lot of hiring for one of the major investment banks. He said basically the same thing. One thing he added was the 95% of applicants left money on the table. They were so happy to be hired that even if they asked for more, they would agree to 5-10% more than first offer when they really could go up 20-30% on base salary.

Sounds like another topic they should be teaching those guys paying $75K+ for their MBAs