Living Wage Calculator

[Major Tom]

Craigslist, folks! It took me around 23 seconds to find a few awesome places to live in SF for around $400-600/month.

Yes, I would be renting a room and sharing a house with a couple of roommates. However the one place I looked at closely offered a much nicer kitchen than what I have in my own house.

Living wage doesn't equal living large wage. It's how the other half live.

I didn't realize that rooms in SF could be had that cheaply. I also did a search, but looked at the section for apartments and single dwellings, as opposed to shares. I lived in a nice mother-in-law unit in the Outer Sunset area of SF in 2008. It was ~450 sq feet at a guess and I was paying $1195/mo. Thanks to Craigslist, I noticed that similar units to that seem to be going for ~$1500 now. However, there are smaller (and more pokey-looking) mother-in-law and studio units going for as low as $750 in the Outer Richmond and Outer Sunset districts.

As you get closer to the downtown area, it gets more expensive, but you can get places for considerably less than the $2500 quoted by jkern if you look around. As Fuego suggested, they may not be the kind of places you'd prefer to live in but then, if you're living on a subsistence income in an expensive city, you can't always have what you want - but with a bit of luck and hard looking, you might get what you need (or however the lyric goes.....)

 

[Major Tom]

As an addendum to my last post, an old co-worker of mine retired in SF in 2008. I don't think he had much, if anything, in the way of savings, so the majority of his retirement was funded by SS. He had worked in medium-level retail jobs for most of his working life, so his SS payments would have been modest. Not sure of his exact age, but he looked to be 62-65.

How did he achieve this feat of retiring on a modest SS amount in San Francisco? Well, he was sharing a house with a long-term partner and several other couples. I believe they had all lived there for a while, so they would have been enjoying the benefit of rent control. After the first few months of retirement he did tell me that finances were a bit tight, but he was very happy, as he now had more time to devote to his artwork and well, everything else in his life. He was an intelligent, well educated guy with a lovely personality and a great love of life. Although I think many of us in this culture assume that living with roommates is something you do only when you're young, merely as a stepping stone to getting your own place, he was a sociable and mature individual for whom this type of arrangement seemed to work very well. It certainly was helping to control his accommodation costs.

As was mentioned in another thread here recently, somehow, most people manage.

 

[dallas27]

I figure the living wage is equal to what a frugal retiree needs. Think about what that must be like, to subsist yourself on 15-30 k a year, but with zero assets or emergency fund to provide mental safety and sanity. Any financial surprise could ruin you.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

 

[FUEGO]

I didn't realize that rooms in SF could be had that cheaply. I also did a search, but looked at the section for apartments and single dwellings, as opposed to shares. I lived in a nice mother-in-law unit in the Outer Sunset area of SF in 2008. It was ~450 sq feet at a guess and I was paying $1195/mo. Thanks to Craigslist, I noticed that similar units to that seem to be going for ~$1500 now. However, there are smaller (and more poky-looking) mother-in-law and studio units going for as low as $750 in the Outer Richmond and Outer Sunset districts.

I have no idea where those places I found were located (Balboa park??) but they appeared to be "on the peninsula" or whatever you might call the land jutting out between the bay and the Pacific.

I'd say in the context of "bare bones place to live" in the living wage discussion, that a single adult should consider shared accommodations before saying "it's impossible to rent a place for under $2500". Especially if we (through higher taxes or mandatory wages) are being asked to pay for their lifestyle.

Want a nicer place? Work more hours, make more money, get a side hustle, move to lower COL area.

 

[Major Tom]

Want a nicer place? Work more hours, make more money, get a side hustle, move to lower COL area.

Agreed. We all have to live within our means eventually (even if some of us initially try to ignore this "law of physics"). If our means are modest well, extra powers of adaptability and creativity are called for.

It's not rocket science, though some people try to turn it into that!

 

[Andre1969]

That calculator gives a monthly housing average of about $1152 per month for a single person in my zipcode (20769). Which, could theoretically cover a $180-200K mortgage and property taxes. But, then you have utilities, homeowner's insurance, and upkeep.

As for renting? Well, there are no apartment buildings in my zipcode, so if you're renting anything, it's either a basement apartment, or your sharing a house with someone. So yeah, I guess that way, you could get something for around $1152 per month.

Anyway, in my case, property taxes were $3164 this year. Homeowner's insurance is about $900, and electricity is around $3200 (all-electric house, old, not very well-insulated). Water bill is about $500 per year (billed quarterly). You can probably get phone/internet/tv bundled for around $100 per month, or simply do without if you're on a tight budget. All that comes out to around $747 per month, $647 if you don't do phone/tv/internet. Now in my case, I have two roommates, so a single person would use less water, and less electricity, but the electric bill wouldn't go down that much, since the bulk of that is heating/cooling, and not individual usage.

Anyway, subtract all that out, and you're only looking at maybe $400-500 per month left over for the mortgage, if you're budgeting $1152 per month.

 

[athena53]

This calculator didn't make a lot of sense when I tested two areas: the KC suburb where we now live and the Bergen County, NJ town where I lived until 2003. When I left NJ I sold my 3-BR postwar tract house for $550K. The house we bought in a well-regarded KC suburb was a McMansion and cost $242K. Property taxes are commensurately lower.

The calculator says that 2 adults need $4K more per year pre-tax in the NJ town than our current town. Hardly. We started saving a ton of $$ after we moved here, which is a big reason I was able to ER.

 

[jkern]

Craigslist, folks! It took me around 23 seconds to find a few awesome places to live in SF for around $400-600/month.

Yes, I would be renting a room and sharing a house with a couple of roommates. However the one place I looked at closely offered a much nicer kitchen than what I have in my own house.

Living wage doesn't equal living large wage. It's how the other half live.

I just did a quick look at craigslist for shared rooms in SF and I didn't find awesome places for $400 to $600 per month. First page of search, the lowest I saw was $650/month that wasn't temporary or weekly. I opened the first $650/month ad and it was sharing a bunk bed with another person in a room. Not what I would call awesome. The first two ad's were $1500 and $1550 for a room in a shared place. Rooms shares went up to over $2000/month. Rooms shares appeared to average around $1000 to $1500. People making very low wages live a Standard of Living on the fringe, not what most of us would consider normal.

 

[FUEGO]

I just did a quick look at craigslist for shared rooms in SF and I didn't find awesome places for $400 to $600 per month. First page of search, the lowest I saw was $650/month that wasn't temporary or weekly. I opened the first $650/month ad and it was sharing a bunk bed with another person in a room. Not what I would call awesome. The first two ad's were $1500 and $1550 for a room in a shared place. Rooms shares went up to over $2000/month. Rooms shares appeared to average around $1000 to $1500. People making very low wages live a Standard of Living on the fringe, not what most of us would consider normal.

This time it took 12 seconds to find this one:

Large furnished sunny bedroom w/private bath available.

$480/month

Did you look at the rooms & shares at SF bay area rooms & shares - craigslist ?

I sorted by price and there appear to be a fair amount around the $500-600 range.

If I was near destitute, I could probably afford multiple minutes or even hours researching these places, asking friends, looking at community bulletin boards, etc for reasonably priced accommodations. I've found that somehow broke students and non-multimillionaires seem to get by in expensive COL areas somehow.

 

[samclem]

I've found that somehow broke students and non-multimillionaires seem to get by in expensive COL areas somehow.

The bigger question is why anyone of such limited means would choose to live in such a high COL area. We don't expect to find "affordable" apartments in Beverly Hills, I don't know why people expect find them at all in places like SF that have been bid up to such high levels. The fact that any exist is a bit surprising--though I might be less surprised by the "low" price if I saw the places in person.
Those pushing for "affordable" housing in such spots of high demand/low supply have a tough case to make: Why should cheap housing exist in a place that is very expensive?

 

[Redbugdave]

That calculator does not take into account the added benefits a person or family would get from the state for being poor. The SNAP program, subsidized housing allowance, etc. I think many people are living better than the calculator estimates in real life because of programs like that and working under the table.

 

[FUEGO]

The bigger question is why anyone of such limited means would choose to live in such a high COL area. We don't expect to find "affordable" apartments in Beverly Hills, I don't know why people expect find them at all in places like SF that have been bid up to such high levels. The fact that any exist is a bit surprising--though I might be less surprised by the "low" price if I saw the places in person.
Those pushing for "affordable" housing in such spots of high demand/low supply have a tough case to make: Why should cheap housing exist in a place that is very expensive?

I would hope they are living in high COL areas in the hopes of finding a job that pays enough to compensate them for the COL differential (and then some).

I wouldn't expect all parts of SF or Beverly Hills to have "affordable" housing, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't relatively affordable housing somewhere within commuting distance (where's the guy gonna live that cleans the toilets at the plastic surgery offices and boutiques?).

 

[samclem]

I wouldn't expect all parts of SF or Beverly Hills to have "affordable" housing, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't relatively affordable housing somewhere within commuting distance (where's the guy gonna live that cleans the toilets at the plastic surgery offices and boutiques?).

Right. No part of Beverly Hills has "affordable" housing. The guys/gals who clean the toilets in Beverly Hills live in lower-cost areas (North Hollywood, the San Fernando Valley, East LA, etc) and take a bus or share a ride into Beverly Hills. That makes perfect sense, and nobody expects to find "affordable" housing in BH proper. I guess activists are demanding "affordable" housing in SF and other similar places because housing in these places used to be within the financial reach of blue collar workers. Well, if it ain't so anymore then they are in the same place as Beverly Hills and people with little money will probably need to commute into the city if they need to. It doesn't much matter what happened in previous times.

 

[Major Tom]

Right. No part of Beverly Hills has "affordable" housing. The guys/gals who clean the toilets in Beverly Hills live in lower-cost areas (North Hollywood, the San Fernando Valley, East LA, etc) and take a bus or share a ride into Beverly Hills.

Try taking the #4 bus from Santa Monica towards downtown LA in the evening and you'll see this happening. Large numbers of Latinos board the bus in West LA and Beverly Hills. When I used to get off at the east end of Hollywood, most of them were still on the bus, heading for parts more easterly (downtown/East LA etc. most likely).

 

[haha]

This time it took 12 seconds to find this one:

Large furnished sunny bedroom w/private bath available.

$480/month

Did you look at the rooms & shares at SF bay area rooms & shares - craigslist ?

I sorted by price and there appear to be a fair amount around the $500-600 range.

If I was near destitute, I could probably afford multiple minutes or even hours researching these places, asking friends, looking at community bulletin boards, etc for reasonably priced accommodations. I've found that somehow broke students and non-multimillionaires seem to get by in expensive COL areas somehow.

Anybody notice that this post "has been flagged for removal."

I absolutely do not believe these listings. In Seattle, a cheaper city, an attractive young woman might find a room for $500 if she didn't mind some ancillary duties. Otherwise, forget it.

Ha

 

[Major Tom]

Anybody notice that this post "has been flagged for removal."
Ha

I noticed that. Didn't see the original post, but there are a host of fake ads for rentals on Craigslist. Telltale signs are photos that look "stock", and rents that are far too low for the place being described. These ads often lack a phone number and require all communication to be via e-mail.

Having said that, I do believe there are ways to live in even high COL areas on marginal incomes if you're creative and adaptable. I have a good friend who looked on CL every day for 2 years before finding a small studio apartment in a nice part of Oakland, very close to Lake Merritt. She pays a sliver under $500/month which is an absolute steal. She's been there for 3 - 4 years, and equivalent places in the area now rent for ~$1000. When she found it, the building was managed by an elderly lady who took a brief look at her application, took a shine to her, and let her have the place on the spot. Even then, the rent was below market - now, even more so.

But hey - not everyone wants to live in a large metropolitan area in a small studio apartment. I get that.

 

[aaronc879]

What type of Standard of Living are they trying to define? For my area, Castro Valley/Pleasanton in SF Bay Area, they say for 1 person:

Living wage: 24K (gross)
Housing: 963 (Bull...1 bedroom rents are 1400 to 1800, does not include utilities)
Transportation: 283 (Bull...Insurance, repairs, gas, loan.. doesn't add up)
Everything else in life: 98 (Bull...... no way!)

If you make $24k here, you are poor and have to figure out alternatives (maybe living with the parents or relatives for free). I'm not advocating raising the wage at the low end of the scale, but why define it as a living wage. Technically, if you make a wage and you are living.....is that not a living wage?

There are multiple places for rent under $963/mo. Not real nice but provide a minimum shelter for someone on minimum wage. Here's one example: Small 1 Bedroom Duplex OPEN TUES 10/7 & THURS 10/9 6-7 pm

Transportation: No need for a car in a place with no freezing weather and little rain. Use a bike or public transportation or your feet.

 

[jkern]

This time it took 12 seconds to find this one:

Large furnished sunny bedroom w/private bath available.

$480/month

Did you look at the rooms & shares at SF bay area rooms & shares - craigslist ?

I sorted by price and there appear to be a fair amount around the $500-600 range.

If I was near destitute, I could probably afford multiple minutes or even hours researching these places, asking friends, looking at community bulletin boards, etc for reasonably priced accommodations. I've found that somehow broke students and non-multimillionaires seem to get by in expensive COL areas somehow.

I'm not saying that it is impossible to find a low cost way of living. My friends brother, who never really fit into society, lives in a tent in a parking lot. My point is what is the purpose of defining a "Living Wage" if it only means that you survived another day. It would be more useful to define an income that someone could actually live a relatively normal life in that location. BTW, I would not let my 23 year old daughter, who works in downtown SF, live in any of the places you found.

 

[rodi]

The SF craigslist adds were mostly for shared rooms (at the affordable price)... which is what someone with limited means, in an expensive area, does...

These are the tradeoffs. In a lower cost of living area, a low income single person might be able to get a studio apartment.

I have a good friend who lived in a womens only residential hotel (Like Bosom Buddies) for 18 months when she first moved to SF. She had a professional job at KRON, but the hotel was what fit her budget. After that she moved to rental shares. One of the reasons she moved back to the San Diego area was the cost of living...

 

[FUEGO]

I'm not saying that it is impossible to find a low cost way of living. My friends brother, who never really fit into society, lives in a tent in a parking lot. My point is what is the purpose of defining a "Living Wage" if it only means that you survived another day. It would be more useful to define an income that someone could actually live a relatively normal life in that location. BTW, I would not let my 23 year old daughter, who works in downtown SF, live in any of the places you found.

I'd say sharing a house or apartment in SF is a far bit better than sleeping in a tent in a parking lot.

What's a relatively normal life? Guess that's why it's so hard to figure out this living wage thing.

 

[Major Tom]

What's a relatively normal life? Guess that's why it's so hard to figure out this living wage thing.

There you go. You nailed it in two sentences.

 

[dallas27]

How is living wage not equal to the cost of living?


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

 

[samclem]

I'd say sharing a house or apartment in SF is a far bit better than sleeping in a tent in a parking lot.

You never met my college roommate.

 

[HFWR]

In Seattle, a cheaper city, an attractive young woman might find a room for $500 if she didn't mind some ancillary duties.
Ha

I did not place that ad...

 

[FUEGO]

How is living wage not equal to the cost of living?


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

In a tent, or in a rented room, or in a studio apartment, or are we entitled to single family houses, mcmansions, or perhaps real mansions?