Military vs. Civilian

[FlowGirl]

Lots of talk about money and bennies, but not much talk about quality of life issues. From a military spouse's perspective I can tell you it is not worth staying just for the pension. My husband has been gone 3 months this year already and that's just training - the actual deployment doesn't start for another few months. In his 8.5 years of service, he's been gone about half that time including two 1 year overseas tours/deployments (fortunately not back-to-back). In addition as a military spouse my career options are much more limited, and we never have complete control over our lives.

If we had just wanted a good retiement I would have stuck with the cushy job I had at a government research lab - similar retirement benefits and get to see the spouse each night. Plus not a lot of chance of getting shot on the job. We didn't even really consider ER until the spouse decided he wanted to stay in the military a while - it was my "light at the end of the tunnel."

The only reason we live this life is that my husband loves it. I mean... really loves it! He's happier with his job than just about anyone else I know, and that's worth a lot. We have a lot of fun, we're happy, and I wouldn't trade our life for anything, but it isn't for everyone and it definitely isn't worth doing just for the pension.

It's also worked for us because the spouse is very aggressive about managing his career - current dream assignment was obtained by walking over to the unit, doing an "informational interview" with the XO, selling himself, and then getting them to submit a by-name-request to headquarters. Extremely rare in the Marine Corps. If he were the type who just threw himself on the mercy of the monitor or didn't constantly have his eyes open for new opportunities I think we'd be a lot more miserable.

 

[PsyopRanger]

Lots of talk about money and bennies, but not much talk about quality of life issues. From a military spouse's perspective I can tell you it is not worth staying just for the pension. My husband has been gone 3 months this year already and that's just training - the actual deployment doesn't start for another few months. In his 8.5 years of service, he's been gone about half that time including two 1 year overseas tours/deployments (fortunately not back-to-back). In addition as a military spouse my career options are much more limited, and we never have complete control over our lives.

If we had just wanted a good retiement I would have stuck with the cushy job I had at a government research lab - similar retirement benefits and get to see the spouse each night. Plus not a lot of chance of getting shot on the job. We didn't even really consider ER until the spouse decided he wanted to stay in the military a while - it was my "light at the end of the tunnel."

The only reason we live this life is that my husband loves it. I mean... really loves it! He's happier with his job than just about anyone else I know, and that's worth a lot. We have a lot of fun, we're happy, and I wouldn't trade our life for anything, but it isn't for everyone and it definitely isn't worth doing just for the pension.

It's also worked for us because the spouse is very aggressive about managing his career - current dream assignment was obtained by walking over to the unit, doing an "informational interview" with the XO, selling himself, and then getting them to submit a by-name-request to headquarters. Extremely rare in the Marine Corps. If he were the type who just threw himself on the mercy of the monitor or didn't constantly have his eyes open for new opportunities I think we'd be a lot more miserable.

I fall into the same category and I have gotten everything I have wanted the last few years, it is scary, I am waiting for something bad to happen. I think I’m just in the right place at the right time. I like my job, the travel and the interesting people I have met. In the past few years I have met Cheney, Rice, Powell and got to escort Peter Jennings and Christiana Amonpour to Saddam’s trial and made a lot of friends along the way.

 

[trixs]

If you really want the military pension and healthcare why not join the Air Force? The promotion rates are much slower than other services but there is a reason for that; Quality of Life! For the last few years my personal deployment rate has been 45 days every 6 months.

 

[Brat]

....  In the past few years I have met Cheney, Rice, Powell and got to escort Peter Jennings and Christiana Amonpour to Saddam’s trial and made a lot of friends along the way. 

I really want to like Rice, I adore Powell and find Christiana Amonpour fascinating. Some day when she quits the reporter gig I would love to have Christiana write about the middle-east, she could be as interesting and informative as Thomas Friedman.

 

[Spanky]

You would NOT be happy as a CPA.

I have a couple people you could talk to if you have any doubt.

It really depends on the individual. I know a few CPAs who are really happy about what they do. I also know some who do not like their work. The bottomline is that you should find work that is situable for your interest and skills and do not place so much emphasis on benefits and pays.

 

[samclem]

If you really want the military pension and healthcare why not join the Air Force? The promotion rates are much slower than other services but there is a reason for that; Quality of Life! For the last few years my personal deployment rate has been 45 days every 6 months.

As a warrant officer, PsyopRanger has got a situation unavailable in the USAF (unfortunately). I know a lot of WOs that would never want to be either an NCO or a "regular" commissioned officer. And, before some Army guy says it, "maybe he'd rather be in the military than be in the Air Force. "

 

[trixs]

And, before some Army guy says it, "maybe he'd rather be in the military than be in the Air Force. "

Hey now, Be Nice!

 

[Brat]

My daughter, her husband, her brother-in-law and father-in-law are all CPAs.  They are all happy that they earned that professional credential.  They include a CFO, Controller, and a Professor.  The fourth has been able to devote his life to community service (Hodgkin's - promise made as the result of facing death in the eye). 

They are content with their professional decisions.   After considering PsyopRanger's style I really don't think he would be happy.  That doesn't mean that the knowledge wouldn't be valuable, I just think that the hours of audit required would drive him nuts.  It's not just a question of passing the exam, two of the four above passed it before receiving their college degrees (with 4.0s in Accounting), it is the tedious audit hours required for the certification.

HR folks call this issue 'fit', not meaning that they don't have the skills but meaning that the personality isn't a mesh with the role.

 

[PsyopRanger]

If you really want the military pension and healthcare why not join the Air Force? The promotion rates are much slower than other services but there is a reason for that; Quality of Life! For the last few years my personal deployment rate has been 45 days every 6 months.

I looked at the AF but I've already got so much time in the Army and my job/skills really don't transfer. Everyone knows the AF has the best "quality of life" but if the promotions rates are slower, it kind of hard to get a higher pension when your pension is based on your base pay?

One of my best friends was in the AF for 6 years, never made it past E4, maybe it was him?

 

[PsyopRanger]

As a warrant officer, PsyopRanger has got a situation unavailable in the USAF (unfortunately). I know a lot of WOs that would never want to be either an NCO or a "regular" commissioned officer. And, before some Army guy says it, "maybe he'd rather be in the military than be in the Air Force.

I talked extensively with Warrants and Regular officers, most told me go warrant. A full bird COL. In Intel told me that he was just a generalist, another middle manager among thousands. As a warrant, I am specialized in a certain area.

Not to mention Warrant is getting a 7% pay increase in 07 and there is talk of tightening the pay gap between Warrants and Regular officers. Current promotion rates are quite high as well. From W1 – W3 is 5 years.

 

[rs0460a]

One of my best friends was in the AF for 6 years, never made it past E4, maybe it was him?

IMHO, promotions have much to do with the current "situation" in the world along with the authorized levels for each grade.

For instance, I made E5 in slightly less than 3 years ('67-'70), but also remember that it was during that period that Nam was extremely "hot" (no, I'm not talking about the weather  )

I did my qual's on E6, but would have had to serve TIG until at least '72-'73 to be promoted.  That didn't meet with my personal schedule to "carry on with my life" in '71.

As far as the USAF, I was always ragged on by my "Army acquainteces" of having to spend four years, rather than their two (this was during the period of a very heavy draft).  My answer to them was simply "I'd rather spend four years in heaven than two years in hell"  8) .

- Ron

 

[trixs]

One of my best friends was in the AF for 6 years, never made it past E4, maybe it was him?

If he didnt make E5 in less than 5 years then he simply didnt study. To make rank in the AF (enlisted anyway) you have to test vs your peers. He who has the most points makes rank :

 

[JDARNELL]

As a warrant officer, PsyopRanger has got a situation unavailable in the USAF (unfortunately).   I know a lot of WOs that would never want to be either an NCO or a "regular" commissioned officer.  And, before some Army guy says it, "maybe he'd rather be in the military than be in the Air Force.

I talked extensively with Warrants and Regular officers, most told me go warrant.  A full bird COL. In Intel told me that he was just a generalist, another middle manager among thousands.  As a warrant, I am specialized in a certain area.

Not to mention Warrant is getting a 7% pay increase in 07 and there is talk of tightening the pay gap between Warrants and Regular officers. Current promotion rates are quite high as well.  From W1 – W3 is 5 years. 

Hello PsyopRanger,

I made the transition from Army enlisted to AF officer back in the early 90s.  At the time I was an E-5 in the 82nd with a line # to E-6.  I looked at the pay difference officer and enlisted and decided I was more than capable of doing the job if the 2Lts and 1Lts.  Plan was to go back in the Army but I ended up in the AF.  You mentioned the pay increase for warrants but look at retirement $$ for regular officers.  They may tighten it some but I bet the 0-5 gap will remain. 

Once in the AF I have done really well against my peers. I think the Army background is what did it.  I too have been one that has always gotten what he wanted until this assignment.  Its not to bad but not my first choice. 

Quality of life is much different.  I was deployed with the Army last year and I had forgotten the Army motto "If it ain't painful it ain't right."  But hey I can do anything for a period of time. 

Would I change anything?  Probably not.  I am very happy with the military and I think that when I leave I will be in great shape for the life after.  So if you are going to stay I say do what is best for you in the long run and also what will be the best use of your talents. 

Tomcat98

 

[PsyopRanger]

Hello PsyopRanger,

I made the transition from Army enlisted to AF officer back in the early 90s. At the time I was an E-5 in the 82nd with a line # to E-6. I looked at the pay difference officer and enlisted and decided I was more than capable of doing the job if the 2Lts and 1Lts. Plan was to go back in the Army but I ended up in the AF. You mentioned the pay increase for warrants but look at retirement $$ for regular officers. They may tighten it some but I bet the 0-5 gap will remain.

Once in the AF I have done really well against my peers. I think the Army background is what did it. I too have been one that has always gotten what he wanted until this assignment. Its not to bad but not my first choice.

Quality of life is much different. I was deployed with the Army last year and I had forgotten the Army motto "If it ain't painful it ain't right." But hey I can do anything for a period of time.

Would I change anything? Probably not. I am very happy with the military and I think that when I leave I will be in great shape for the life after. So if you are going to stay I say do what is best for you in the long run and also what will be the best use of your talents.

Tomcat98

Tomcat98,

Thanks for the advice. Actually I've been holding out on all my info, my current plan is to get my masters in psychology while I am a warrant, then apply for and do my professional certification in the Army and eventually apply for a direct commission as a Psychologist. The direct commission would put me at an O-3 level and probably retire as an O-4 or higher.

I have been going back and forth as to what to get my masters in but I think this is where I would be the most happy.

So eventually, I will be looking at the regular “O”

 

[newellcr]

PsyopRanger,

I can't believe that three pages into the discussion of an "Is it worth it?" question and no one has suggested yet that you do a calculation!!!  Just kidding.  It isn't all necessarily calculations, but, there were some pension questions a while back of a similar nature.  The Cliff Notes version is that once you are heavily invested into a 20 year (or 30) and out situation, it gets very difficult to make up the financial ground you would loose by jumping even if the pastures are much greener. 

Just using round numbers a $20k/yr COLAed pension has a future value in today's dollars of nearly $500k (the SWR equivalent is approximate but relatively accurate for military 20 and out folks will get the pension for a very long time), AND you get the healthcare.  For someone 10 years into a 20 and out, to get just the future value of the pension ($500k) you need to invest about $3000/mo (working in current year dollars to account for inflation). 

I'm not sure what your numbers are, but this is food for thought. 

Kind Regards,

Chris

 

[Lazarus]

Well, If I had it to do over again. I would have stayed in the AF till 20y. Didn't want to then but I think it would have put me on the road to ER sooner.

 

[OAG]

I would point out a couple of facts.

The Military pays into SSA (since about 1950 something) therefore the years count towards the 35 SSA uses (and they add "credits" for early years of service to bring up the level).

The big thing in ER is Medical Insurance which is not my worry (Tricare is about $230 a year or $460 for Family; until 65 when only Medicare part B is necessary to get Tricare for life (basically, full coverage with NO copayments, full portability etc)).

Or course I speak from personal experience having enlisted at 17 years old (as a HS dropout) and "retiring" at 21 years of service and 38 years old (as a College Graduate (BS Business) and as a CW4 (Chief Warrant Officer). Could have actually retired on the money but did work at whatever I wanted to do, went back to school under "GI Bill", worked in Real Estate, did property mangement, worked for the govenment as a contractor, lots of other stuff. Now I consider myself fully retired. New car in garage, new $350K condo, enough in the bank to live well enough on. and $0 Debt (no mortgage, etc). My biggest gripe is TAXES, both RE and Income; but that is the price of freedom and a small price to pay at that.

PS: that 1979 Retired Check has almost trippled in value (current dollars). And SS adds about 75% more to the kitty.

 

[JPatrick]

I would point out a couple of facts.

The Military pays into SSA (since about 1950 something) therefore the years count towards the 35 SSA uses (and they add "credits" for early years of service to bring up the level).

I don't really understand how that adding credits works.  Can you enlighten me ArmyGuy?

 

[Nords]

(and they add "credits" for early years of service to bring up the level).

I don't really understand how that adding credits works.  Can you enlighten me ArmyGuy?

It's answer #454 at the SS website-- military wage credits.

The final incarnation of the program ran from 1978-2001 and added up to $1200 to your SS wage numbers in exchange for earning at least $3600/year. There were earlier versions of the program going all the way back to 1940.

The program ended in 2002.

 

[JPatrick]

It's answer #454 at the SS website-- military wage credits.

The final incarnation of the program ran from 1978-2001 and added up to $1200 to your SS wage numbers in exchange for earning at least $3600/year.  There were earlier versions of the program going all the way back to 1940.

The program ended in 2002.

Interesting--Thanks

 

[jclarksnakes]

PsyopsRanger
....I spent almost 21 years in the army flying helicopters as a warrant officer. I had enlisted for WO flight school and Vietnam. The US pulled forces out of VN while I was in flight school but I had already decided that I liked flying helicopters so much that I wanted to stay in. The post VN years were tough to make rank. I saw many good officers get passed over and booted out. I retired as a W4 in 1993. I have friends who totally retired after 20 to 30 years in. Only a few of them totally retired at 20 to 22 years without substantial savings. Those few who are doing it without savings or other sources of income do prove that someone can retire on $25,000 per year but they are not living the ER life that would work for me. I went back to college and got a degree in nursing and work parttime at that. I could have FIRE'd before my 50th B'day but I still like going to work so I am staying at it a while longer. It seems to me that you are in the army at an ideal time for career advancement. I cannot imagine that your skills and experience will not be needed for many years to come. You are at the point where your decision to stay or go is important. The decision a few years down the road will be heavily biased towards staying because you will have so much time invested. With your training and experience you can do well working in the army or outside it. The COLA'd military pension and Tricare are great but you could probably do as well or better in the right job outside the army. By saving and LBYM you will be ready for an ER either way that you go. The factor that matters the most is what you WANT to do.
jc

 

[al_bundy]

military and civilian is really hard to compare since there are so many jobs in the military that pay at diferent rates and some jobs don't transfer at all. I spent 8 years in the army and left because my math showed that a 401k is worth more than army retirement.

I was a communications tech and went into IT in civilian life after playing with computers in the army. if i was artillery or armor then i don't know what i would have done. i also noticed that a lot of career military people don't do anything except work in something government related all their life. Either as a government employee or selling insurance or something else outside a military base.

 

[Scrooge]

military and civilian is really hard to compare since there are so many jobs in the military that pay at diferent rates and some jobs don't transfer at all.

Back in the late 1990s, I read a couple of articles comparing what people with comparable skills were making in the military and in the private sector. Some of the numbers were in the same ballpark, but in certain cases there was a great deal of difference in compensation, up to 100% (!). Sometimes you were clearly better off in the military, sometimes it was the other way around.

 

[Arif]

Back in the late 1990s, I read a couple of articles comparing what people with comparable skills were making in the military and in the private sector. Some of the numbers were in the same ballpark, but in certain cases there was a great deal of difference in compensation, up to 100% (!). Sometimes you were clearly better off in the military, sometimes it was the other way around.

Back when I was in the Army (geez that make me sound old) the Army Times would publish a full spread article comparing jobs in the civilian sector vs. military. Even the jobs that you think wouldn't correlate were compared. For instance, a tanker would be compared to a mechanic. Not always exact but they made an effort. Those articles always got me thinking about life after the military. It was key in making the decision to compete for a slot in the Finance corps instead of say Infantry.

 

[Bimmerbill]

You mean my 21 years in Artillery have no worth in the civilian world?