My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

[azanon]

Greg,

God also (according to the bible) made you with the ability of free will, knew even before he made you that you would eventually choose to make decisions for yourself (god is omniscent, isnt he?), then had the audaciy anyway to blame you for doing just what he knew you would do from the beginning.

He blamed you so much so that you were expelled from virtual heaven, and sentenced to death (both physical and eternal).  How in God's name he wipes his hands completely clean from this, literally makes me laugh.

I love analogys Greg, do you?    I used to have a bearded dragon.  I had a beautiful cage for him in which i designed for him.  What would you personally think of me, his owner and caretaker, if i were to put a snare right in the middle of the cage (the apple tree) and that snare consisted of the most attractive thing that would draw him to it.   Further, what if i were to make this snare so enticing, that i put (or allowed) another lizard in the cage that could communicate with him that had the sole motive to try to talk my "beloved" pet into putting his foot in this snare.    What if on top off all of this, like ive already said, i knew my snare would eventually "kill" him.

Would you consider me partially responsible for him eventualy stepping in it?   Completely responsible?     I hope to God (pun intended), you'd answer you'd consider me completely responsible.   One would have to be some kind of crazy person to actually put the blame on the pet, lol.

We know according to the bible, God actually considers that to be our fault.   Yes, that's hard to believe isnt it.   

We wont even go into the jealous hissy fits Jehovah had on repeated occasions. Just this initial story is too much for me.

And you love this God?

Azanon

 

[greg]

Michael: I see a problem with your style or manner of argument. You always end up throwing out a quote from the Bible as your final statement. This, to me, smacks as a sort of smite. As a non-Christian the particular verse you send out has little meaning, little relevance to my daily life or importance to my value system. You, to my mind, use the verse as a cudgel. This bothers me and may bother others..

Might I suggest that you 'unpack' the verse for us, explaining how it might be relevant to our lives or how that verse was directly relevant to your own changing perceptions of the world. Sharing such information would help us make better decisions. If the 'truth' is in the Bible somewhere, perhaps you should help God unpack it for us. I believe we deserve at least an attempt. Anything less appears to be a smite--and I don't believe any person's God intends that.

REW: The above is also my formal apology.

--Greg

 

[greg]

Azanon

I certainly don't like your perception of him.

--Greg

 

[azanon]

Greg

If i said anything that is inaccurate with the account in Genesis or inaccurate with what we know of Jehovah according to the bible, do say.

What i'm doing here is thinking for myself, not letting someone else think for me. I personally think just about any rational person would come to the same conclusion that i jsut did about the genesis story IF they were to strip away all the pretaught prejudices and simply gave the bible a hard and honest critical analysis.

There is no way, objectively speaking, God was completelely void of any responsibilities with what transpired in the garden.

I think to believe you dont have the right to analyze things for yourself is very sad. You have such a powerful brain in which to do it with. Surely, that was meant for something.

Azanon

 

[laurence]

There are Christians who view much of the Bible as a Parable, not a literal accounting of events. I.E. the story of Adam and Eve represents the move from hunter gatherer to farming culture, tree of knowledge is about becoming self aware, etc.

Well, this thread has risen through the ranks to become what, the 4th longest thread ever? Shall we see if it can make it to 400 posts? Actually, it seems most conversations along this line are in their death throes when people start saying, "I think anyone who doesn't see it the way I do is a scruffy looking nerf herder!" and "All x type people are y!". But maybe Michael can rescue it by deconstructing the Bible passages he has quoted.

 

[azanon]

Greg (others)

I want to also say i didnt eventually reject God on a morality basis;  cause i wanted to do things my own way per se.   If i really believed there were a heaven that i could live in forever and be in a state of bliss as God's servant, i'd have no problem jumping through all of the christain hoops and restrictions as i live my life.  Even more of a motivator, if i believed there was a hell where you burned every second forever, I'D have to be insane to not follow God no matter how in the wrong God seems to be.

I just got to the point where i just cant buy it anymore.   All this mystical intervention, the metaphysical, donkeys that talk to man, the noah's ark story, and on and on, all that collectively, takes a imagination and a level of belief (without proof, aka faith) that i just dont have anymore.   I rejected the tooth fairy at about age 10, santa clause by age 11, and i guess God by age 25.   I'm a little embarressed that it took me 25 years to do so.  My only defense is that i had to undue 18 years of brainwashing from both my parents and my community.

Azanon

 

[laurence]

Greg (others)

I want to also say i didnt eventually reject God on a morality basis;  cause i wanted to do things my own way per se.   If i really believed there were a heaven that i could live in forever and be in a state of bliss as God's servant, i'd have no problem jumping through all of the christain hoops and restrictions as i live my life.  Even more of a motivator, if i believed there was a hell where you burned every second forever, I'D have to be insane to not follow God no matter how in the wrong God seems to be.

I just got to the point where i just cant buy it anymore.   All this mystical intervention, the metaphysical, donkeys that talk to man, the noah's ark story, and on and on, all that collectively, takes a imagination and a level of belief (without proof, aka faith) that i just dont have anymore.   I rejected the tooth fairy at about age 10, santa clause by age 11, and i guess God by age 25.   I'm a little embarressed that it took me 25 years to do so.  My only defense is that i had to undue 18 years of brainwashing from both my parents and my community.

Azanon

My parents are athiest, and I was until I was about 25, then became a Christian. So I hear where you are coming from. I know I have recieved a lot from my faith, but it could very well be a construct of my mind. If I'm wrong, that's fine, I won't pretend I don't have doubts. I'm content to interpret things my way, keep that strictly to myself, and enjoy life. If we are just worm food, I don't think I would behave any differently than I do now....I'm curious, what things were you not able to do when you were a Christian that you feel free to do now?

 

[azanon]

Just be careful of falling into Pascal's wagor, Laurence.  If you're not familiar with what that is, take a peek at Eric's write-up on it, from the same site i linked above http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/pascal.html   In short, Pascal's Wager says what do you have to lose by betting on God.  If you're right, you go to heaven.  If you're wrong, you're just wormfood just the same.  But there are problems with that approach and i agree completely with Eric Herrington on it.

What do I think i can do now that i couldnt do before?   Honestly, i'm not sure i want to admit to the one or two things at the forefront of my mind.   Trust me, there are definitely some differences though.   If you want to wonder what they may be, think of some things you might do if you could get away with it, you didnt believe you had to answer to God and it wouldnt' be legally punishable if you did it.   I'm sure you can think of a few examples.  At least one of those, i'm doing.

Do you think they're arn't differences?  How could their not be?  A true, believeing christian strictly following the guidance of the bible is going to be living a life that far contrasts somone who lives his life for himself.   If you think they're actually similar, that just means you either have a christain not doing what he's supposed to, or you have a really benevolent atheist/agnostic on your hands.

 

[laurence]

I'm familiar with Pascal's wager, aside from an occasional lotto ticket, I'm not a betting man. I just spared you a long explanation on why I'm a Christian, as I'm sure you've heard something similar as before. My point was more towards I know I've benefited from my faith and if I am mistaken, it's been a rather benevolent/beneficial mistake.

You have a definition of what makes a true Christian, it's different than mine, but as a California native, we tend to have more liberal interpretations out here. My circle of family/friends consist of Christians/agnostics/atheists/buhddist/Sieks...no Muslims, but that's happenstance, not on purpose. We all seem to respect each other's views pretty well.

As far as strict following of the Bible, I have listened to ten Christians explain the guidance of the Bible and gotten eleven interpretations. That made me realize all of that was missing the point.

I won't pry as to what those two things are, that's none of my business. I admit as a heterosexual married white male in America, a lot of my default behavoir dovetails nicely into expected Christian behavior. But I'm not a Fundamentalist, I don't take the Bible as literal truth, and I don't proscribe to the notion that it's my way or the highway, and there are a lot of us who feel like I do. For example, I DON'T believe you are going to spend eternity burning in the fires of damnation for being an unbeliever. I believe Ghandi is in a good place. These are things that I believe, and I don't expect anyone else to believe as I do. I could expound on the reasons why for quite some time, but I won't torture you with that. Suffice to say Christians do not all have one mind on God, or the Bible. For those that think my differences with their opinion means I'm burning in hell, well, I just feel sad for them.

 

[azanon]

For example, I DON'T believe you are going to spend eternity burning in the fires of damnation for being an unbeliever.

I dont believe that either, but the bible is pretty clear on that issue though. There's multiple versus to that point. I admit i'm not the most imaginative person, but "weeping and nashing of teeth", and "..... begging for just one drop of water to quinch his thirst", and "the lake of fire" seem relatively straightforward and sound quite literal to me. If you believe the bible, i'd strongly consider the possibility this was meant to be taken literally.

Another reason i'm not a christain is, I believe, it direclty conflicts with what i really am, which is a scientist (i hold a MA in Biology). I learn about my world through the scientific method alone. There is what i know, and what i dont know (as ive said). Belief/faith have no place in my way of thinking and evaluating my world. I am not going to claim something as a truth on the basis of faith or belief, because i believe to do so is, by definition, illogical and irrational.

 

[cube_rat]

 I learn about my world through the scientific method alone.   

<opens door, slowly peeks in>

Try reading The Case for a Creator which attempts debunk darwinism and makes cogent case about intelligent design.

<ducks and quietly closes the door...>

 

[laurence]

Well, I won't get into what those versus may or may not have been reffering to, the irony of debating scripture with an atheist is too much for this simple man.  I know several scientists, including DW (MS, works in Biotech) who are Christians and have no feelings of conflict. As a computer (a.k.a. poor man's) scientist, I have not lost any sleep over it, either.  

But my point was not to try and convince you of anything, I find those at my door in suits with Bibles at 8 in the morning on saturday just as annoying as the next guy.  I just wanted to clarify there are those of faith who are not as...vitriolic as those you've come in contact with.  I'm sorry you've had to deal with a disproportionate number of them, they certianly don't speak for me.

EDIT: ack! I'm not opposed to people believing in intelligent design, but please keep it out of the classroom! THere is a reason of seperation of church and state! Intelligent design is just back door creationism, IMHO.

 

[haha]

If you want to wonder what they may be, think of some things you might do if you could get away with it, you didnt believe you had to answer to God and it wouldnt' be legally punishable if you did it.   I'm sure you can think of a few examples.  At least one of those, i'm doing.

Got  a lady friend amigo?

Ha

 

[Zipper]

Your parents had it right Laurence.

Tell us who contaminated you?

 

[cube_rat]

EDIT: ack!  I'm not opposed to people believing in intelligent design, but please keep it out of the classroom! THere is a reason of seperation of church and state!  Intelligent design is just back door creationism, IMHO.

Nope, I'm not advocating creationism in the classroom. I was just stating that the book attempts to look at intelligent design as an argument against darwinism.  And no, I'm not a religuous nut at all.  I happen to be a cosmology freak who is in awe with the big bang theory and the ancient universe.

<ducking out again...>

 

[wabmester]

Got  a lady friend amigo?

Or maybe he's talking about that other sin: spilling your seed. (Forgive me Father for I have sinned. BTW, can I borrow your hanky?)

Azanon, you are welcome to the Church of Wab. The only sin is forgetting to tithe 10% of your income to our church.

 

[laurence]

Your parents had it right Laurence.

Tell us who contaminated you?

LOL! If it's any comfort, I'm often mistaken for an agnostic/athiest. I'm very non-jiudgemental.

In the interest of full disclosure, DW is christian, but I refused to convert for her sake. I posed the very same arguments Azanon has put here, and we had an inter/non-faith wedding. Long story short, one day I changed my mind, and when DW found out she almost hit the floor in shock.

 

[Michael]

Try reading The Case for a Creator...

You might also enjoy the works of Dr. Hugh Ross (Fingerprint of God, Creator and Cosmos, Beyond the Cosmos). He is heavily into astronomy, and shows how the universe is fine tuned for man. I found them to be a very enjoyable read, as the universe fascinates me also.

 

[Michael]

I believe we deserve at least an attempt.

I don't claim to fully understand the Bible, but I will attempt to explain why I quoted what I did.

But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.  That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;
James 1:6-7 NIV

The above verse implies to me that only the prayers of true believers will be answered.  I quoted the verse in an attempt to show that those who wanted to investigate the Bible's miracle claims first hand might begin by seeking true believers.

I never noticed much in the way of healing/miracles personally, until I started working with a true believer.  We became friends, and I was able to observe his family life during numerous visits to his home.  When he and his wife prayed, things happened.  This was also true of other true believers that he associated with.

 

[Tadpole]

I think all ideas should be in all textbooks. Don't forget alien/UFO seeding of planet earth. Also, greek mythology as science (who am I not to believe it was true?), and what about my personal belief - life sprang from big-bang crop circles?

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I don't claim to fully understand the Bible, but I will attempt to explain why I quoted what I did.

But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.  That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;
James 1:6-7 NIV

The above verse implies to me that only the prayers of true believers will be answered.  I quoted the verse in an attempt to show that those who wanted to investigate the Bible's miracle claims first hand might begin by seeking true believers.

I never noticed much in the way of healing/miracles personally, until I started working with a true believer.  We became friends, and I was able to observe his family life during numerous visits to his home.  When he and his wife prayed, things happened.  This was also true of other true believers that he associated with.

This is a true story (for your amusement).
When Hemingway was married to his 2nd wife
(Pauline Peiffer, a devout Catholic) he developed temporary
impotence. He tried everything but nothing worked.
Finally, Pauline said, "Why don't you try prayer? You've
tried everything else." So he (feeling as he put it
"Like a damn fool!") found a Catholic church, got on his knees
and prayed fervently for an uplifting message from heaven.
Then, he went home and they made love "Like we
invented it." "And that", he said, "is when I decided to
become a Catholic."

JG

 

[azanon]

Try reading The Case for a Creator which attempts debunk darwinism and makes cogent case about intelligent design.

Anyone that attempts to debunk darwinism is an idiot.  I'm sorry if that wasn't gentle. 

Darwinian thinking is the foundational basis for modern science today.   If you take darwinian process and natural selection out of science, our modern understanding of science would literally crumble all the way to freshman biology courses.   Seriously, we'd have to close the doors to the biology department and completely regroup because things like structure/function and "survival of the fittest" forms the foundation of our thinking; meaning the way we (scientists) evaluate our world operates in accordance to these foundational understandings.

Intelligent design, even if it was true, is not science.   Science starts with the unknown, hypothesis are formed then tested, and only after repeated, overlapping evidence, does one move to a theory, such as  the theory of evolution.   

Religion works completely the opposite;  it is assumed from the outset something is true (because the bible said it), then one attempts to collect evidence to "prove" the original, and already accepted assumption.

 

[Jarhead*]

This is a true story (for your amusement).
When Hemingway was married to his 2nd wife
(Pauline Peiffer, a devout Catholic) he developed temporary
impotence.  He tried everything but nothing worked.
Finally, Pauline said, "Why don't you try prayer?  You've
tried everything else."  So he (feeling as he put it
"Like a damn fool!")  found a Catholic church, got on his knees
and prayed fervently for an uplifting message from heaven.
Then, he went home and they made love "Like we
invented it."  "And that", he said, "is when I decided to
become a Catholic." 

JG

Reminds me of the old saying, "There are no atheists in a Fox Hole."

 

[brewer12345]

Or maybe he's talking about that other sin: spilling your seed.   (Forgive me Father for I have sinned.   BTW, can I borrow your hanky?)

Azanon, you are welcome to the Church of Wab.   The only sin is forgetting to tithe 10% of your income to our church.

Yeah, but do we still get to celebrate the Feast of Maximum Occupancy?

 

[azanon]

Well, I won't get into what those versus may or may not have been reffering to

I believe i saw occam's razor mentioned once earlier in this thread.  For a recap, the most likely explanation is usually the correct one.   Specifically, if the bible says you'll be thrown in the lake of fire, occam's razor would say that the bible was really talking about a lake of fire.   Sure, you can have alternative explanations, but you know from the outset, using occam's razor, they will inherently be less likely to be true.   But you are entitled to an opinion, and like all my christain friends, i encourage you to "keep the hope alive!"!  

the irony of debating scripture with an atheist is too much for this simple man.
What's ironic, is i actually consider myself the simpleton.   I'm an agnostic, not an atheist.  It is you that has the answers to life figured out because you know for sure all these things about God and such since you proclaim he is alive.   Me, being the simple and humble man, admits I dont know whether God is alive or not, because neither I nor anyone else has proven it one way or the other yet.

The atheist is just as arrogant as you are, in that he proclaims God doesn't exist when he cannot prove it.  Again, i dont mean to offend you by saying you're arrogant, but how could you not be, if you say you know for sure God exists, yet cannot prove it?  

Yes, i'm aware 80% of the USA have identified themselves in national polls as "christain", so that definitely puts me in a minority.   Then again, it was once a general consensus that the world was flat, too.

I know several scientists, including DW (MS, works in Biotech) who are Christians and have no feelings of conflict

I know several people that claim to be scientists, many of which happen to have the actual respective degrees, that arn't scientsts (IMO if you insist).   Anyone that rejects darwinian process and the theory of evolution is not a scientist in my opinion.   Again, the very foundation of modern science today is structured from darwinian thinking and process, and its is the #1 guidance for how a real scientist would carry out original research.   If one rejects this, it is extremely difficult for me to even knowledge said person as a scientist. Many science professors, especially the ones holding the higher degrees like Ph.D's, would agree with me on this.