Nords someone ex military Read This!

[dumpster56]

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-11/1178687306249090.xml&coll=1


Why? Why would this be the case? Why could a pizza delivery guy be able to drive on base with no clearence?

Sorry we have some issues I would say.

This is well INCREDIBLE! So a bomb laden pizza delivery car COULD get by the gate.

WHY?

 

[JPatrick]

Sorry to say, but security is still a little lame at some bases. I don't know if that is the case at Dix.
He may very well of had a check when/if he was issued a pass. However, those generally consist of local and/or NCIC files checks and if he was squeaky clean, or reasonably so, he would pass.
Now a full scale agent on the ground background check is expensive and time consuming---Better to say no pizza delivery allowed than to go to that extreme.

 

[samclem]

Security is quite a bit tighter than it was before 2001. In years prior, if the car had a sticker, it was waived onto the base. So, a bad guy could gain base access by stealing a car. Now, every base I go to requires at least the driver to present a valid ID card--some still require all occupants ofthe vehicle to present some form of ID. Some bases (including Ft Bragg) scan these cards to assure the card presented has not been reported missing/stolen. That's the outer ring of base security, gaining access to restricted areas (the flightline, command post, ets) requires various other security badges, clearances, etc.
On a daily basis, there's a limit to how much screening can be done at the gates, and even how mcuh makes sense. When we go to the highest threat levels, every vehicle is manually inspected--which can result in it taking people hours to get through the gates. This is meant to be done only for a very limited time. Remember, the typical base perimeter has scores to even hundreds of miles of unguarded chain link fence, so if these whackos had wanted to gain access to Ft Dix, they clearly could have despite any security procedures in place at the gates.
As JPatrick notes, doing background checks on the pizza delivery guy is not practical. Remember that there are lots of non-military, non-DoD civilians coming onto every base every day. The guy who fixes the copy machines, the folks delivering office supplies, the patients at the clinic, the people who work in the BX. None of these people require a security clearance in order to do their business on base. They all have to properly identify themselves at the gate and to have legitimate business on the base. Generally, the pizza guy/gal meets both of these criteria. Local commanders have wide latitude to deny access to individuals, and I'd expect there to be a clampdown on non-essential delivery personnel admited to military bases in the light of the present situation. It will last a few months, then the restrictions will gradually be removed.

 

[lets-retire]

Most Army posts are open posts. Meaning anybody can drive onto them during peace time. Ft. Dix was no exception. After 9/11 they did establish gates, however since it has been a very long time since the attack, if they still have them the procedures for entering are probably very lax. Normally during peacetime the pizza guys were allowed on a base without the gates being notified they just had to have a delivery to an address on the base. Since 9/11 many bases had changed their policy. I won't go into what the changes entail, but it was still very easy to get on base.

 

[dumpster56]

Most Army posts are open posts. Meaning anybody can drive onto them during peace time. Ft. Dix was no exception. After 9/11 they did establish gates, however since it has been a very long time since the attack, if they still have them the procedures for entering are probably very lax. Normally during peacetime the pizza guys were allowed on a base without the gates being notified they just had to have a delivery to an address on the base. Since 9/11 many bases had changed their policy. I won't go into what the changes entail, but it was still very easy to get on base.

We are at war. This is no peacetime.

Sorry there should be no excuses. The commanding Officer of Ft Dix should be removed.

 

[lets-retire]

I'll try to explain the theory. No base is 100% secure, ever. The high dollar and very deadly resources are protected. Ft Dix. is a training base so their resource is trainees. The government is not going to spend a lot of money protecting military people, they are expendable. High dollar and deadly resources can be used against the population, so they are protected better. To have the gates, if they are still there, 100% protected is pointless. Army bases are so large that the defense budget would have to be about 10 times it's current level to protect all of them. Since we can not protect the perimeter of the base adequately the security at a gate is essentially window dressing.

To give you an idea of the amount of troops we are talking about. Right after 9/11 the base I was stationed at was almost locked down. There were about 10 or 15 areas where the base could be easily penetrated. This security required over 100 people per shift. We were working 12 hours shifts. Two shifts were working and two were off. To completely protect the base would have required at least another 400-600 people. The base was about 1/20th the size of Ft. Dix. With the draw downs of the early 1990's, that amount of manpower is not available. The underfunding of the Clinton era made personnel even less available.

 

[Nords]

We are at war. This is no peacetime.
Sorry there should be no excuses. The commanding Officer of Ft Dix should be removed.

You called me to rant about this?!?

Chill, Newguy. What type of world do you think you're living in?

If you want to know how to get onto a military base, go to their Pass & ID office and tell 'em you wanna deliver for Papa John's. They'll check your, um, ID and they'll give you a... pass. That's what they do. When you go through the gate the sentries might check for weapons & explosives, or maybe not. Are you feeling lucky today?

Wanna know why it's so easy for pizza drivers to get onto Fort Dix? Because most of the professional military security guys are guarding other things in Iraq for you to get all outraged about. There's nothing inside Dix's gate considered worthy of protecting from terrorists. (The soldiers might have a different opinion, but they're not paying for it either.) Most of the base is no more secure than your average industrial park. Some areas worth protecting inside the base may have unspecified additional levels of security but they're not likely to share that info with the media, let alone you & me.

The piers on submarine bases have sentries who check IDs. No one is allowed on a submarine if they're not on an access list with an ID card to match. However if the Domino's guy rolled up and poked a Glock outside the window then I'd expect the topside sentry to dive for cover and scream like a scared bunny as loudly as possible. Hitting the alarm switch would be an unexpected bonus. Hopefully somone would hear the ruckus and slam the hatches remove all the crap from the fouled hatches and try to hydraulically pump them shut. If a security alarm was sounded then the duty officer would have to locate the key to the small-arms locker (among the dozens of other keys he carries) and start handing them out (the small arms, not the keys). But nothing scares me more than the thought of a bunch of sailors running around a submarine with M-16s, 12-gages, & .45s. (We used to let them run around with a clip inserted but they kept shooting themselves. We could let them shoot a couple hundred rounds a month for proficiency, but then you'd bitch about spending your tax dollars on my ammo allowance.) I'll take my chances with the terrorists any day.

Frankly the security plan on most bases is for the terrorists to get inside the gate and start running amok while the hardened points fight a delaying action. Eventually enough supplemental security forces will get on the scene, pin them down, outflank them, and put them out of their misery. Just about everything outside the high-security area is cannon fodder until help arrives.

I've had to deal with base security at its highest level. Traffic was gridlocked for miles and it took two hours to get through the gate. No business gets done like that. One of the targets on these yahoo's lists was the Army-Navy game, and because of them I'm not looking forward to the additional security precautions that I'm gonna have to endure with Aunt Sandy & Aunt Anne at my nephew's West Point graduation this month. Of course if the security forces knew my aunts better then they'd probably agree with me that those ladies are pretty terrifying. But I'm not going to tell them that.

My initial reaction to hearing the terrorist plans was "Hunh, that's funny, I spent most of my time at Fort Dix trying to break out of the base, not into it..."

Maybe you're right about military service. Maybe if you'd been drafted and spent a couple years of conscripted service then you'd have a more realistic view of the military. You either have an extremely naive view of the way the world is, or you're trolling. Either way I'm not sure why that motivates you to pop your stack and vent to the board in this manner.

Anyone can rant about the headlines. It would seem more productive for you to get more motivated to fix things in your local area or to work on something where you can actually influence the results.

 

[yakers]

Like Nords said...

Most bases are open and you can get in for any good reason, like delivering something. What does the guard do if the UPS truck driver has a green card, turn them back? Then inside the bases are more secure areas and inside them even more secure areas. But the part of the base that has to deal with the public has to have public access.

 

[dumpster56]

You called me to rant about this?!?

Chill, Newguy. What type of world do you think you're living in?

If you want to know how to get onto a military base, go to their Pass & ID office and tell 'em you wanna deliver for Papa John's. They'll check your, um, ID and they'll give you a... pass. That's what they do. When you go through the gate the sentries might check for weapons & explosives, or maybe not. Are you feeling lucky today?

Wanna know why it's so easy for pizza drivers to get onto Fort Dix? Because most of the professional military security guys are guarding other things in Iraq for you to get all outraged about. There's nothing inside Dix's gate considered worthy of protecting from terrorists. (The soldiers might have a different opinion, but they're not paying for it either.) Most of the base is no more secure than your average industrial park. Some areas worth protecting inside the base may have unspecified additional levels of security but they're not likely to share that info with the media, let alone you & me.

The piers on submarine bases have sentries who check IDs. No one is allowed on a submarine if they're not on an access list with an ID card to match. However if the Domino's guy rolled up and poked a Glock outside the window then I'd expect the topside sentry to dive for cover and scream like a scared bunny as loudly as possible. Hitting the alarm switch would be an unexpected bonus. Hopefully somone would hear the ruckus and slam the hatches remove all the crap from the fouled hatches and try to hydraulically pump them shut. If a security alarm was sounded then the duty officer would have to locate the key to the small-arms locker (among the dozens of other keys he carries) and start handing them out (the small arms, not the keys). But nothing scares me more than the thought of a bunch of sailors running around a submarine with M-16s, 12-gages, & .45s. (We used to let them run around with a clip inserted but they kept shooting themselves. We could let them shoot a couple hundred rounds a month for proficiency, but then you'd bitch about spending your tax dollars on my ammo allowance.) I'll take my chances with the terrorists any day.

Frankly the security plan on most bases is for the terrorists to get inside the gate and start running amok while the hardened points fight a delaying action. Eventually enough supplemental security forces will get on the scene, pin them down, outflank them, and put them out of their misery. Just about everything outside the high-security area is cannon fodder until help arrives.

I've had to deal with base security at its highest level. Traffic was gridlocked for miles and it took two hours to get through the gate. No business gets done like that. One of the targets on these yahoo's lists was the Army-Navy game, and because of them I'm not looking forward to the additional security precautions that I'm gonna have to endure with Aunt Sandy & Aunt Anne at my nephew's West Point graduation this month. Of course if the security forces knew my aunts better then they'd probably agree with me that those ladies are pretty terrifying. But I'm not going to tell them that.

My initial reaction to hearing the terrorist plans was "Hunh, that's funny, I spent most of my time at Fort Dix trying to break out of the base, not into it..."

Maybe you're right about military service. Maybe if you'd been drafted and spent a couple years of conscripted service then you'd have a more realistic view of the military. You either have an extremely naive view of the way the world is, or you're trolling. Either way I'm not sure why that motivates you to pop your stack and vent to the board in this manner.

Anyone can rant about the headlines. It would seem more productive for you to get more motivated to fix things in your local area or to work on something where you can actually influence the results.

Interesting nords.

However I would say that my fathers days as a conscript in Korea, friends that spent two tours of duty in Vietnam a cousin who went thru West point and 4 tours in Vietnam and cambodia, oh yea he was there when Nixon said we were not and I did have a draft card but sorry my lottery was 288 does not say that I have no right to question that since we are at war and we are told that there are sleeper cells here in america that I should expect that our soldiers bases are protected.

 

[lets-retire]

My initial reaction to hearing the terrorist plans was "Hunh, that's funny, I spent most of my time at Fort Dix trying to break out of the base, not into it..."

Not that there's much right outside the base anyway.

 

[donheff]

I've had to deal with base security at its highest level. Traffic was gridlocked for miles and it took two hours to get through the gate. No business gets done like that.

When I was working I had my annual Christmas bowling party at Fort Myers. When security was high the line was a nightmare. For most bases, the risk is not high enough to operate like that except in very unusual circumstances.

 

[ladelfina]

Thanks, Nords for your "real-life" description. I think newguy888 is understandably infected with the "extreme paranoia" virus.. in this sense it's kinda backfiring.

The gov't. has led us to believe that the terrorist threat is so widespread/imminent/crafty that:

• our phones and e-mail and financial transactions must be monitored, and our mail opened
  
  
• the 'no-fly' list keeps us safe from all the Robert Johnsons and David Nelsons and Ted Kennedys who must be detained for hours and strip-searched at airports
  
  
• breast milk and hand cream are potentially dangerous articles
  
  
• politicians are calling for electronic monitoring leg bracelets for all Muslims in the US...
  
  
• the official list of "high-risk" targets includes things like water parks and we've paid untold millions so they can buy night-vision goggles and biohazard detectors in places like Kansas and Wisconsin..

etc. etc.

Seeing as you need to empty your pockets and go through a metal detector and possibly turn in your cell phone to go into Federal/State bldg.s... In newguy's defense, I can see why someone might be led to believe a miltary installation of whatever kind might not leave itself open to just any "Candy-Gram!"

I understand the rationale that leads to military "business as usual".. would that the average person could do the same.

----
After almost 5 years.. the DHS still debating over the NADB:
http://www.dhs.gov/xoig/assets/mgmtrpts/OIG_06-40_Jun06.pdf

"Some classes of assets where national criticality needs to be
determined include 1,305 casinos, 25 golf courses, 24 swimming
pools, 44 recreational centers and 163 water parks. Other asset types
and quantities reported included 130 public libraries, 159 cruise ships,
34 Coca Cola bottlers/distributors, 244 correctional facilities, 718
mortuaries, 571 nursing homes, and 3,773 malls, of which only 399
met DHS’ criteria of over 1 million square feet."

: :

Like.. "the mortuaries we'll buy as a critical terror target but we might need a little convincing on the golf courses. We'll get back to you in a couple of Friedman Units..."

"Illinois, home to some of the nation’s tallest buildings in its city of
Chicago, listed 28 tall buildings or just two-thirds as many as the 41
reported in Indiana."

"New York lists only two percent of the nation’s banking & finance
sector assets, ranking between North Dakota and Missouri."

Again, this is the point they are at in 2006, three years after initiating the database.
Can't someone just Google the tallest buildings? Are we saying the DoD doesn't know what our nation-criitical infrastructure is? Is this all make-work for a bunch of people, or is this for real?



The fact that anyone is even wasting time writing up reports like this is depressing in itself.

 

[dumpster56]

Thanks, Nords for your "real-life" description. I think newguy888 is understandably infected with the "extreme paranoia" virus.. in this sense it's kinda backfiring.

The gov't. has led us to believe that the terrorist threat is so widespread/imminent/crafty that:

• our phones and e-mail and financial transactions must be monitored, and our mail opened
  
  
• the 'no-fly' list keeps us safe from all the Robert Johnsons and David Nelsons and Ted Kennedys who must be detained for hours and strip-searched at airports
  
  
• breast milk and hand cream are potentially dangerous articles
  
  
• politicians are calling for electronic monitoring leg bracelets for all Muslims in the US...
  
  
• the official list of "high-risk" targets includes things like water parks and we've paid untold millions so they can buy night-vision goggles and biohazard detectors in places like Kansas and Wisconsin..

etc. etc.

Seeing as you need to empty your pockets and go through a metal detector and possibly turn in your cell phone to go into Federal/State bldg.s... In newguy's defense, I can see why someone might be led to believe a miltary installation of whatever kind might not leave itself open to just any "Candy-Gram!"

I understand the rationale that leads to military "business as usual".. would that the average person could do the same.

----
After almost 5 years.. the DHS still debating over the NADB:
http://www.dhs.gov/xoig/assets/mgmtrpts/OIG_06-40_Jun06.pdf

"Some classes of assets where national criticality needs to be
determined include 1,305 casinos, 25 golf courses, 24 swimming
pools, 44 recreational centers and 163 water parks. Other asset types
and quantities reported included 130 public libraries, 159 cruise ships,
34 Coca Cola bottlers/distributors, 244 correctional facilities, 718
mortuaries, 571 nursing homes, and 3,773 malls, of which only 399
met DHS’ criteria of over 1 million square feet."

: :

Like.. "the mortuaries we'll buy as a critical terror target but we might need a little convincing on the golf courses. We'll get back to you in a couple of Friedman Units..."

"Illinois, home to some of the nation’s tallest buildings in its city of
Chicago, listed 28 tall buildings or just two-thirds as many as the 41
reported in Indiana."

"New York lists only two percent of the nation’s banking & finance
sector assets, ranking between North Dakota and Missouri."

Again, this is the point they are at in 2006, three years after initiating the database.
Can't someone just Google the tallest buildings? Are we saying the DoD doesn't know what our nation-criitical infrastructure is? Is this all make-work for a bunch of people, or is this for real?



The fact that anyone is even wasting time writing up reports like this is depressing in itself.

People still do not get my rants. They are showing how much BS the leadership here in america are throwing at the american people. We get 24/7 news reports about 6 guys who were going to Jihad the base at Ft Dix. Then we get politicians saying that the pizza guys do not need clearence to get on base. Then I look around and see americans getting stuck at airports and not being able to bring a bottle of water on a plane. Wire taps on regular joes trying to make a living. Being told that we are one day away from a sleeper cell going off in an american city. That we are fighting the terrorists over there so they are no here. More BS than I could ever believe.


No Paranioa Virus here with the newguy. I am making observations about our government and the military from an outsiders view. Bottom Line, Bin laden and al zwahiri are still free over 5 years since 9/11. That IS the crime that started all this stuff. And american Troops on Islamic lands are well a nono in many muslim minds. Leadership here in america and a way to stop buying muslim oil is the answer.


From Nords reponse
Wanna know why it's so easy for pizza drivers to get onto Fort Dix? Because most of the professional military security guys are guarding other things in Iraq for you to get all outraged about. There's nothing inside Dix's gate considered worthy of protecting from terrorists. (The soldiers might have a different opinion, but they're not paying for it either.) Most of the base is no more secure than your average industrial park. Some areas worth protecting inside the base may have unspecified additional levels of security but they're not likely to share that info with the media, let alone you & me.
..


Yes guarding stuff in Iraq. Uh how long do you want to stay there? 50 years? lookat the Israeli palistinian conflict. That is what Iraq will look like.

 

[REWahoo]

People still do not get my rants.

If you think that's the case, perhaps you should change your method of delivery.

rant : to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild or vehement way; rave: 'The demagogue ranted for hours'.

[Origin: 1590–1600; < D ranten (obs.) to talk foolishly]

—Synonym: bombast...

 

[Robert the Red]

Wouldn't it be simpler for a pizza delivery guy to poison the pizzas? Say with some fast acting carcinogen so that the base starts to get a rep as a "cancer hole" -- not with something that's easily tied back to the pizza.

 

[Texas Proud]

Newguy,

I am not sure if you are outraged that the security is 'lax' at the base or 'too much' at others... but it does seem like you think the base should have more security since you called for the base commander to be fired....

I put this up there with the missle defense shield and the Mexican border wall... a big waste of money for people who THINK it will actually protect something... it would cost billions upon billions to 'secure' every military base in the world... and then what prevents them from going to a night club just off base and taking out a lot of soldiers that are having a good time

We get outraged at some of the smallest things now a day... I am amazed that anything gets done with all the paranoia...

 

[Nords]

Newguy,

My comments were directed at your strident claim that someone needs to be relieved of command for... well, I'm not sure what you think they did wrong. But you can leave politics & conspiracies out of it.

Although I normally say "It's been good talking with you", in this case I have to admit that it's been an interesting experience attempting to exchange thoughts with you.

You have a nice life now.

 

[lets-retire]

People still do not get my rants. They are showing how much BS the leadership here in america are throwing at the american people. We get 24/7 news reports about 6 guys who were going to Jihad the base at Ft Dix. Then we get politicians saying that the pizza guys do not need clearence to get on base. Then I look around and see americans getting stuck at airports and not being able to bring a bottle of water on a plane. Wire taps on regular joes trying to make a living. Being told that we are one day away from a sleeper cell going off in an american city. That we are fighting the terrorists over there so they are no here. More BS than I could ever believe.

From the reports I've heard, the Ft. Dix six are a bunch of idiot wanna-be's. That is why they flew below the radar. The reason the pizza guys do not need an escort to get on base is, the bases are not 100% secure to begin with. The areas containing important resources are secured. The wire taps you complain about are being done on people suspected of terrorist ties. Otherwise don't you think these Ft. Dix six would have been monitored? If the Ft. Dix six weren't being monitored, why would you think the rest of the average joe's are being monitored? Unless the government has a reason to monitor someone they are not being monitored. Yes some of the politicos might be monitored when they shouldn't, but the average joe, sorry it ain't happening. It is the frenzy the Libs and the news has stirred up.

 

[justin]

Here's a tidbit of info. I do engineering work for a consulting firm and I just finished working on beefing up certain security elements at all base access control points (ACP is the acronym they use : ) for a nearby huge military base (not naming names).

In working on the traffic analysis for the ACP's, the base told us their clearance rate through a single-lane ACP is 350 cars per hour. That works out to an average of 10 seconds per car to verify ID's and/or windshield stickers and to do any sort of inspection. Doesn't seem like a random pizza delivery boy would have a hard time accessing a base with this level of security and scrutiny.

 

[Joss]

"People still do not get my rants."


Uh... yeah... I think we pretty much do.

In Vaudville they used to say, if you weren't carrying the crowd that it was either your material or your delivery. You might want to take a look at them both.

 

[lets-retire]

In working on the traffic analysis for the ACP's, the base told us their clearance rate through a single-lane ACP is 350 cars per hour. That works out to an average of 10 seconds per car to verify ID's and/or windshield stickers and to do any sort of inspection. Doesn't seem like a random pizza delivery boy would have a hard time accessing a base with this level of security and scrutiny.

If they are just checking stickers, how long does it take to "see, wave, and maybe salute"? ID's and stuff, well I'm not going there.

 

[justin]

If they are just checking stickers, how long does it take to "see, wave, and maybe salute"? ID's and stuff, well I'm not going there.

I think the 10 second average clearance rate is an average over all vehicles (those with stickers or not, and those with varying forms of ID, including delivery vehicles).

 

[Mwsinron]

"People still do not get my rants."

No offense but Newguy you seem to be outraged about everything that pops up. Maybe I dont get your rants

 

[CCdaCE]

I get your rants in context that everything seems to be pretty hosed up. But, you have to turn off the TV once in awhile and think for yourself. No offense?

I'm saying, sure there's a lot of things that can be going better. But, on the whole, are "we" getting it right? By "we", I mean politicians.

One word that describes my observations is "attitude". Do you see Bush as "all F'd up" or as a saint? (obviously not). Or somewhere in between.

Ok, if he's all F'd up... what are you gonna do about it? Write your Congressman/Senator/etc. Get it off your chest. Intelligently, to the point, politely, etc.

You're wasting your time here. Either everyone agrees or disagrees for their own reasons they've already stated.

/end troll/rant/flame war.

-CC

 

[samclem]

I think the 10 second average clearance rate is an average over all vehicles (those with stickers or not, and those with varying forms of ID, including delivery vehicles).

Justin,
Was tjis a recent survey you did? I'm not aware of any military post that presently allows vehicles to enter based solely on a sticker--everywhere i go I need to produce a picture ID. In fact, I was told by a friend recently that Eglin AFB isn't even issuing stickers anymore, since they figure they're already checking IDs--and will be for a looong time to come.