Not stopping once FI goal is reached - Kitces & Carl Ep. 66

dadu007

Recycles dryer sheets
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Feb 10, 2015
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Seems to be a common occurrence with clients, per Michael Kitces and Carl Richards: People who have definitely achieved their FI goals (and then some), but can't seem to quit the accumulation phase.
Good general discussion between Kitces and Carl and their approach with some clients who fit this description. I think it's good to hear; makes sufferers of OMY seem not so crazy or unusual. :)
YouTube link: https://youtu.be/Ak1uSmmt0xQ
 
Oh yeah, you want to have a little cushion. My spending went way up from what I was planning.
 
Seems to be a common occurrence with clients, per Michael Kitces and Carl Richards: People who have definitely achieved their FI goals (and then some), but can't seem to quit the accumulation phase.
Good general discussion between Kitces and Carl and their approach with some clients who fit this description. I think it's good to hear; makes sufferers of OMY seem not so crazy or unusual. :)
YouTube link: https://youtu.be/Ak1uSmmt0xQ

Very interesting discussion. I'm sure the psychological issues around money are more controlling for many of us than actual need. I see folks here who've been retired about as long as I have (15 years), are about my age (mid 70's), spend like I do (4% or less), have "plenty" (whatever that is) and are still 80+% equities. I don't criticize that but I don't understand it. YMMV
 
Also, simply put, some aren't ready for one reason or another to stop working. In DW and my case:

- I can't stay home with the 2 year old and 5 year old all day doing the SAHD deal... I'll go nuts. So I have a very low-stress contracting job I go to every day.
- Wife is running her own gym as a dream of hers. It's a lot of work, but she loves it.

We are FI now, but due to those circumstances, we're probably going to reach for a bit of a brass ring. The small business, especially, will likely allow us to let our portfolio grow without touching it for a couple of decades, which is really nice... but I'll check out of the working world once the girls start school in a few years.
 
No need to quit right at the "exact" moment of FI. Like others have said, it's nice to have a deeper bumper of excess funds than having to "budget" later on. But don't over do it. Set an amount of excess you need and then deeply consider letting go.
 
Did Jeff quit when he reached FI?
Did Warren?
Did Bill?
Did Steve?

Should we form a group called Quitters Anonymous?
 
Reasons why I might not want to “quit the (investing) game” after hitting our number:

- estate/heirs
- it’s fun
 
No need to quit right at the "exact" moment of FI. Like others have said, it's nice to have a deeper bumper of excess funds than having to "budget" later on. But don't over do it. Set an amount of excess you need and then deeply consider letting go.

+1

What hitting the FI "moment" meant to me was that it no longer matter if Megacorp chose to get rid of me, I would not be forced to find a job elsewhere.

The "buffer" built after that was more based on "what level of comfort do we want to target for spending in our retirement years?" as well as "how much cash do I want to start retirement with, to avoid being forced to sell equities during the inevitable market downturns?"
 
This is why I never had a real number goal. I estimated what I would need to retire, which is quite low, and then kept working because I knew I wanted to do more than just survive. Once I realized I would blow past that first marker, I started thinking about travel and food, which my spouse and I both love. Now we're trying to work a little longer to cover our 529 shortfall out of income rather than savings, but once the kid has launched we'll be ready to start figuring out what to do with our newfound free time and money. :D
 
We have been FI for some time and I have been "suffering" from OMY syndrome but since I have been working very part time since 2015 I don't feel terrible about it.

However, one day last year I did say to myself: "What you need all that equity for dummy* ?" We have no plans for an "estate" and no heirs. We have a pretty fixed lifestyle and it is likely to diminish, not grow. We have no aspirations to "eight figures"

And the future is dark and full of terrors. So now we keep the equity portion at a fixed amount of funds that reflects the "risk" or "volatility" that we are happy being subjected to in the market and then let it in turn feed the fixed income portion which can then grow to whatever outlandish figure it eventually becomes. Obviously this suits our particular situation and wouldn't necessarily apply to most people.


* rather more accurately I took to heart Bernsteins maxim: "If you've won the game, stop playing"
 
I FIREd a year ago and now my inner entrepreneur is coming out. I have one very part time, enjoyable contract and am pondering if I want to take on more. My requirements are:

- No office or commute; must be fully remote.
- No boss and minimal accountability to others.
- I set the hours.
- I can shut the work down and restart at-will.

….You get the picture. Why fight it if earning a bit is what I want to do with my abundant time?
 
It seems some posters are talking about continuing work after the FIRE goal is reached.

I want to hear from people who leave their asset allocation on “extra strength” after the FIRE number is reached. ie maintaining high % equity allocation in the portfolio long after the FIRE number has been attained.

Who has set, or plans to set, their portfolio on accumulation mode after hitting their FIRE number?
 
I FIREd a year ago and now my inner entrepreneur is coming out. I have one very part time, enjoyable contract and am pondering if I want to take on more. My requirements are:

- No office or commute; must be fully remote.
- No boss and minimal accountability to others.
- I set the hours.
- I can shut the work down and restart at-will.

….You get the picture. Why fight it if earning a bit is what I want to do with my abundant time?

Emphasis added.

+1 Control of one's time is the core of this decision. My old job provided me with little control of my time. Being FIREd provides me with a ton of control.
 
... I want to hear from people who leave their asset allocation on “extra strength” after the FIRE number is reached. ie maintaining high % equity allocation in the portfolio long after the FIRE number has been attained.

Who has set, or plans to set, their portfolio on accumulation mode after hitting their FIRE number?
Well, I guess we qualify. 73YO, portfolio until recently was 75/25, now reduced to 70/30 after liquidating some equities to build up cash for a real estate purchase.

We have far more than we will ever need, so the equity tranche is really for heirs and charity. And, as you speculated, "It's fun" to watch it grow. On a moral level, I could argue that it's bad stewardship to metaphorically bury one's excess money in a hole versus investing it productively.

I think one factor in people's thinking IMO is the fallacy that volatility is risk. Risk is Enron, Montgomery Wards, General Electric, Sears Holdings, Worldcom, etc. Stocks that go down and never come back. Dips in the markets have, for around 100 years of data history, always come back. Same as riding an actual roller coaster -- no significant risk there either. Hang on and enjoy the ride. Risk from volatility does appear when SORR is considered, but that is what a carefully considered AA is for.

I just did an analysis for a nonprofit investment committee arguing that endowment funds should be almost 100% invested in equities. History as a guide tells us that over time and through the inevitable blips, equities have returned 100x what bonds have returned. For a long-term investor like an endowment fund, blips are don't-cares. As individuals we do not have the infinite time horizon of an endowment fund, but we can still take a pretty long view when the investments are destined to be held by the next generation or by a charity, which also has a long view.
 
It seems some posters are talking about continuing work after the FIRE goal is reached.

I want to hear from people who leave their asset allocation on “extra strength” after the FIRE number is reached. ie maintaining high % equity allocation in the portfolio long after the FIRE number has been attained.

Who has set, or plans to set, their portfolio on accumulation mode after hitting their FIRE number?

I am in accumulation mode currently, with ~91% Equities & 4-5% Crypto - the rest is Cash at the ready for the next pullback in Equities. My current strategy has met my goals each & every year, for the past 20 years.

Once my portfolio can self-sustain - where annually Cap Growth along with Divi's are:
1) meeting the annual growth (as a %) goal
PLUS
2) meeting my contribution amount (as $$'s) while w*rking

..that is the moment I will FIRE. At that time, I will re-evaluate the exact timing of removing myself from commitments, but will aim for a max of 6-months to be done.

I don't ever plan to adjust my AA or Strategy.. don't fix what ain't broke, go with what brung ya.. and all that.
 
Who has set, or plans to set, their portfolio on accumulation mode after hitting their FIRE number?

It depends on bond rates for me. Rates would have to be significantly higher than inflation before I'd eschew any of my equity portfolio for them. Bond rates approaching zero make absolutely no sense to me and I avoid investing in things I don't understand.
 
It seems some posters are talking about continuing work after the FIRE goal is reached.

I want to hear from people who leave their asset allocation on “extra strength” after the FIRE number is reached. ie maintaining high % equity allocation in the portfolio long after the FIRE number has been attained.

Who has set, or plans to set, their portfolio on accumulation mode after hitting their FIRE number?

I think I’m like that. I have more than I will ever be able to spend.

Right now I have:

18% cash
32% investments (90% stocks/funds/10% bonds)
40% real estate holdings (single family homes)
9% mortgage notes

I sometimes fear I’m too conservative. I really have no idea. It’s hard holding so much cash sitting there doing nothing. I am slowly reducing my real estate holdings.
 
It seems some posters are talking about continuing work after the FIRE goal is reached.

I want to hear from people who leave their asset allocation on “extra strength” after the FIRE number is reached. ie maintaining high % equity allocation in the portfolio long after the FIRE number has been attained.

Who has set, or plans to set, their portfolio on accumulation mode after hitting their FIRE number?

I'm something like that, age 71, in ninth year of retirement.
I had a small re-fied mortgage going into retirement and a seven year span until starting SS at age 70, if things went well.

Things did go decently well and now I find I have a few thousand $$ of excess retirement income most months, from my pension/annuity + SS. So I invest that excess in my taxable account, which I try to keep around 95% stock funds and 5% cash/settlement fund.

My larger tax-deferred account is 65% stock funds, so when I start RMDs in January, I expect my taxable account contributions to be even larger...
 
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