SWR should not be constant over a Retirement Life

Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

Yes by all means keep up the good work.
We also have day to day budget covered so SWR is the variable option(not withdrawning yet). And yes emotions affect our spending pattern(hopefully not the 50-60% stock/bond split).

I have a hard core dividend bias(along with balanced index) so studies which include this element make me more comfortable than others-in which the div. is there but 'invisible'.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

I agree with the general theme of this thread. We should not limit our thinking to what is available with the tools that we have. Our tools are limited to the S&P500 index and a very few fixed income investments. This is because of the data that are available.

Now let's look at things from a broader perspective.

My investigations into switching stock allocations in accordance with valuations (as measured with Professor Shiller's P/E10) tell us to be out of stocks at this time. That is, you should allocated 0% to stocks (as represented by the S&P500). But what if prices were cut in half? Would you be as concerned about holding stocks? My research suggests that it is a good idea to hold 30% to 40% in stocks at those prices. What if prices were cut to one quarter? Would you feel comfortable with a high stock allocation? My research suggests that you buy as much as you can (a 100% stock allocation). Don't be overly concerned with the calculated thresholds. The best numbers are likely to be a little bit different in the future. That is, they will be similar, but not identical.

We know that you must include a growth vehicle such as stocks to make a retirement portfolio last. We know that selling stocks at depressed prices kills a retirement portfolio. The most important lesson from my research is that it is OK to wait for prices to get better. It is OK to wait for a decade if necessary.

Now let's look beyond our calculators. I have been a net seller of stocks recently. (This is a radical change in my behavior). But I have bought a few shares of Merck (MRK) as well. It was selling at a P/E around 13 to 14 and it pays a high dividend. Merck is obviously being priced as if all patents are about to expire and nothing at all is in the pipeline. Historically, Merck has commanded a handsome premium to the overall market. If stock prices in general were cut in half, buying Merck at recent prices would still make sense. [Currently, Merck has a P/E of 15.46 and a dividend yield of 3.28%. The S&P500 has a P/E of 29.03 and a dividend yield of 1.80%. The Dow Jones Industrial Average has a P/E of 19.69 and a dividend yield of 2.29%.]

I would expect a stock such as Merck to grow at least as fast as inflation. I do not expect it to go bankrupt. I would expect it to be able to maintain its current dividend amount for a few years. The dividend amounts would remain attractive even if they were not increased in the next few years. For those reasons, I think that stocks such as Merck (and other, similar investments) can help us get through a prolonged waiting period. We do not have to restrict ourselves to TIPS or any other particular investment choice.

I suggest that you look very closely into your desired income stream. It is possible to reach 3.5% in dividends in reasonably safe stocks even today without ever having to sell any shares. The biggest risk would be whether the dividends would increase enough to match inflation. This approach is not identical to Gummy's Sensible Withdrawal Rate strategy, but it is similar.

My experience is that real retirees (who look into the matter) make good choices. Studies that validate their decisions often come later.

Have fun.

John R.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

John R

Yep - my side money ( under 20% of total portfolio) is yielding 3.5 - 4% marked to market. Utilities, oils, banks, baby bells, REIT, closed end conv bond fund. Buy Mergent's Handbook of Dividend Achievers every couple years and DRIPs via Moneypaper. Also a net seller of stocks of late AND looking(not buying yet) at drug stocks( like Merck). Still have Lilly from the early 90's when it yielded 4%.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

I am itching to get back into REITS. They have a
very low correlation with the total market and
have zigged when the market zagged the last few
years. Vanguard's fund pays about 5% right now
and I am thinking about DCA to a 10% overall
position over 3 years. At my age I can't afford the
risk of plunging.

I checked the annual report for the Vanguard REIT
fund and found that the dividend amount per share
has been very stable aver the last several years.
This worries me a little as I would like to see some
evidence of dividend growth.

Individual REIT stocks like Washington REIT, New Plan
Excel, Weingarten and National Health Properties were
very good in the past and are growing their dividends
at about 10% per year. If I can't find some evidence
of growth in the Index, I might say to hell with it and
go back to buying individual REITS for my IRA.

BTW, I think REITS are a good inflation fighter. Most
lease renewals are indexed to the CPI. They might
even be better than TIPS if you can stand the volatility
and just spend the dividends (like John Galt),

Regards,

Charlie
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

. . . My investigations into switching stock allocations in accordance with valuations (as measured with Professor Shiller's P/E10) tell us to be out of stocks at this time. That is, you should allocated 0% to stocks (as represented by the S&P500). . .

This is where I have questions, John. Did your investigations tell you the same thing 12 months ago just before a nearly 40% run up in stocks? If stocks fell 25% over the next few days, weeks or months, the person who was in stocks 12 months ago would still be better off.

I have yet to see a method for determining timing that really works. And although you've done well (and/ expect to do well) with Merck, I have yet to see a method for stock picking that really works either.

For a large number of reasons, I don't believe the typical investor can determine -- with any degree of certainty -- what stocks will outperform the index over any specific period of time. After the exposure of the blatent corruption of the 90's, we know that we can't trust the financial reports. And after working for CEOs of two large companies, I can say with absolute certainty that they often are clueless about the markets they serve. Further, it is the unforseeable events that often become the primary drivers for major stock moves.

I don't mean to say that one should never buy individual stocks. But there is a risk associated with that that must be factored into the decision.

What are these indicators that you are telling us to use? How were they determined? How were they tested? What percentage of the time did they actually work and how well?

And on another point, what are the indicators that led you to buy Merck? Can you apply the rules to other stocks? I would have to find a lot of Mercks to replace my total market index fund investments or be extremely vulnerable to unforseen negative forces (like lawsuits, etc.).
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

JWR,

I agree with SalaryGuru on this one also!

- Having just finished Berstein's 4 pillars of Investing, He lays out a pretty good case of why the most competent money managers in the World Cannot Time the Market, Pick Individual Stocks, and assemble a portfolio that can consistently beat a portfoilo of constantly held index funds of different asset classes.

I'm taking this one to the grave with me - whether it's rich or poor - It's at least a sensible plan.

BTW - Have you read Berstein's - 4 Pillars of Investing? - If so, how come you believe that you are smarter than the market?

If not, I'd suggest reading it!
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

I don't know about John R but here's my two cents. Using his calculations the math works but
he also mentions the possiblility of a long(up to a decade?) wait which exceeds my 'emotional' capacity. Hence my balanced index out of the can(70-80%). Even with the S&P 500 above it's 1871 trend channel(overvalued) I'm willing to accept the possible portfolio underperformance long term in the hope (perhaps forlorn) that the overvaluation will persist long enough to be benificial early in ER.

As for my side/hobby money in individual stocks - they were selected using 'retro' valuation methods - Bogle's price to dividend and then Moody's(now Mergents) Handbook of Dividend Achievers for dividend consistency plus dividend growth from the classics - Utilities, oils, telephone, food, drug, etc. Why? - strictly for div. income plus div. growth. It was expected that they would underperform 'the market' but supply cold hard cash div.

Both the P/E10 and Merck(via price to dividend or other method) are ways to value stocks - on a chart might look like timing to a mere Philistine like me - they can coincide.

So my big bet is balanced index and let the computers rebalance.

Small side bet on div. stocks(who cares about performance) if the div.s keep coming. Now to further confuse the issue - will be selling some and shifting more toward div. growth as SS appoaches (1.5-2 yrs.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

Without spending a lot of time evaluating options, its possible that both approaches have some meeting points.

For example, using vanguards large cap value index satisfies the need to hold an index while still providing a good dividend stream from value stocks.

A managed fund like the Wellington fund that keeps 60% in high dividend value stocks and the rest in intermediate bonds, about half of which are corporate, at a fairly reasonable cost.

Even the asset allocation fund, which over its term has delivered similar returns to the s&p500 with lower volatility and frequently higher dividend yields.

I'll think on it some more (after a good nights sleep), and perhaps have some more constructive ideas, but combining some aspects of value indexing or actively managed value stocks/bonds and some selective stock picks (perhaps only 3-5) that are producing a high yield in a blue chip framework...rather than trying to make it a pure or black and white solution??
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

I have yet to see a method for determining timing that really works.
Sure you have.  I posted a link to one a while back:

http://www.kc.frb.org/publicat/reswkpap/PDF/rwp02-01.pdf

I actually pay attention to this method because it makes some intuitive sense.  P/E doesn't tell you the whole story because stock values don't exist in a vacuum -- stocks compete with other investments for cash, so the method above (written by a fed economist) looks at the spread between E/P (i.e., earnings yield-equivalent) and treasury yields (which tend to track other bond yields as well).

Even though stocks are overvalued by just about every metric out there, bond yields are so low that stocks look like they're still a safe bet.    Personally, I will probably reduce my stock exposure if/when interest rates rise (or as the spread narrows to the threshold mentioned in the above paper).
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

Bogle financial markets research center, june 5,2003 -'policy portfolio' speech pretty well sums it up for me. My favorite financial guru remains Charles DeGaul although Yogi Barra is coming on strong.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

I have yet to see a method for determining timing that really works. Sure you have. I posted a link to one a while back

Wab,

Well, how come there has never been a money manager that has beaten the Indexes year in and year out?
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

Cut_Throat

That's what keeps the debate going - the small group of managers that beat the market exist. The rub is determining who is based on 'past performance'. Various studies on persistance of managers/funds indicate the difficulty of - picking ahead of time - also the drag of increasing size (ie success). The odds are daunting even over very short(ten yr) periods.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

Well, how come there has never been a money manager that has beaten the Indexes year in and year out?
If you read Bernstein, you'll remember that there are managers who consistently beat the market.   The efficient market types tend to attribute their success to random chance (akin to a coin landing on heads many times in a row -- it's going to happen for somebody).

A couple of points, though:

The more money you need to manage, the harder it is to beat the market.   Both from an efficient market "odds" standpoint, and from a standpoint of finding enough good bets that you can believe in.   That's one reason Buffet says not to expect great forward returns from him -- he has too much money.

I don't really care about beating the market consistently, nor do I think I can do it.   I don't even think there's a single method (such as the one I linked to) that works.   But I do fervently believe that the market isn't that smart.  I think the market has short term memory and tends to overreact to recent news, for example.

I'm perfectly happy exploiting the few things I think I know, and even when I'm wrong, it provides me with considerable entertainment value  :)
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

Tobias (I think) gave a great example about fund managers who beat the market many years in a row, as Wabmester mentioned:

Take 512 pennies and throw them onto the floor. The roughly 256 that come up tails can be spent for dryer sheets.

The other ~256 get tossed again. The roughly 128 that come up tails get removed.

The remaining ~128 get tossed; you keep the ~64 heads.

Repeat, and keep the ~32 heads. (Why didn't I start here so I wouldn't have to type so much?)

Repeat and keep the ~16 heads.

Repeat and keep the ~8 heads.

Repeat, and keep the ~4 heads.

Repeat, and keep the ~2 heads.

Now you have finally weeded out the losers, so it is time to make your investment.  Put half your portfolio as a bet that penny #1 will come up heads on the next toss, and half as the same bet on penny #2 (gotta diversify, you know!), because they have consistently outperformed the other pennies, and are obviously just plain good at coming up heads.  
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

If you read Bernstein, you'll remember that there are managers who consistently beat the market.   The efficient market types tend to attribute their success to random chance (akin to a coin landing on heads many times in a row -- it's going to happen for somebody).

Wab,

I did read Bernstein (have you?) and he cannot name 1 money manager that has beat the indexes for the long haul -  A 30 year time period. Yes there are money managers that beat the market for 5-10 years. So what? They usually fail miserably after a run of success.

(Buffett is not a money manager - He is a business manager and actively participates in the Businesses of the companys that he buys.)
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

Cut-Throat, I just pulled one mutual fund at random out of my portfolio -- Vanguard Healthcare (VGHCX). Started 20 years ago, annualized return of 20.43% since inception. I believe that beats "the market."

But my main point was that it is harder for a fund with lots of money to beat the market than it is for an individual, so just comparing active fund managers to a market index isn't "proof" of anything.

I liked Bernstein's book. He's a smart guy who writes well, but he basically just reads research done by others and repackages it for the masses. A useful service for sure, but I still prefer understanding the underlying assumptions and making my own decisions based on how solid I believe those assumptions to be.

The fundamental assumptions MPT makes are that the stock market always trends up, and that the market is very efficient at valuing stocks. I think these assumptions are worth questioning.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

Wab,

The Vanguard Fund that you mentioned did not perform better than the average fund of the Health Care Sector. I had a web page up (but have now lost it) where the VGHCX fund had bettered the Health Care Sector about half the time (which is what you'd expect) - The other half of the time the other funds in that sector Clobbered this fund.

There have been index funds created lately at Vanguard to track this sector. I'm betting the index fund will outperform the activley managed fund over the next long term periods.

So, it was not this Fund Manager's stock picking ability that helped him have a 20% return, but rather the whole sector in general. I would not make my whole portfolio this sector, but you could certainly have it be asset class like Real Estate and make it 10% of your portfoilo.

I do understand why the bigger the fund the harder it is to beat the market. And that is why index funds look even better.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

Cut-Throat, now we're splitting hairs. The Efficient Market Hypothesis says that all stocks are fairly valued, so you can't beat the broader market by making a sector bet. Yet, health care is a sector that has beaten the market for the last 20 years. You can't wiggle out of this one by trying to reclassify health care stocks as a separate asset class.

To prove to yourself that is possible for an active manager to beat the market for whatever term you want to pick, use this trivial portfolio:

1) Pick a stock, sector, or whatever that you think will outperform for some term, say 1 year.

2) Be right. Just for 1 year. You seem to agree that this is easy to do.

3) Now switch to TSM. Your annualized returns will beat the market forever. Guaranteed.

This may seem "dumb" to you, even though it would prove Bernstein wrong. However, this is basically what I do with my stock investments. I have a core holding of TSM, and I try to juice it up with a few side-bets that I think will outperform. I also adjust my allocation based on what I think will happen on a macro level. Finally, I allocate a larger chunk to real assets than most people, because I want to have something left if everything goes completely to hell.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

1) Pick a stock, sector, or whatever that you think will outperform for some term, say 1 year.

2) Be right. Just for 1 year. You seem to agree that this is easy to do.

I certainly do not agree that this is easy to do at all ! That is why I will remain invested in a group of asset classes and in index funds.

Listen WAB, I have already admitted that I cannot outsmart the market! I don't think I'm smarter than Bernstein either.

So if you've found a method that works for you, I'm happy for you!
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

Professor Shiller did the heavy lifting when he created P/E10. [P/E10 is the price of the S&P500 index divided by the average of the most recent 10 years of earnings.] He got the idea to use the average of ten years of earnings from Benjamin Graham's writings. He has posted his research at his site.
http://www.econ.yale.edu/~shiller/

The kind of timing that I am talking about is the kind that Warren Buffett and Sir John Templeton have engaged in. You buy when there is value. You don't buy when everything is overpriced. Warren Buffett has stated recently that he cannot find anything worth buying these days. He is not happy about that. But he is willing to wait.

I have posted much, but not all, of my research on the SWR Group Research discussion board at www.nofeeboards.com. Almost everything that I have done uses the historical sequence method that FIRECalc and the Retire Early Safe Withdrawal Calculator use. In fact, I routinely use those calculators. [One finding that really surprised me was that www.retireearlyhomepage.com misreported the effects of switching in accordance with P/E10.]

There are many details. But if you are looking for a short-term frequent trading kind of activity you will have to exclude me. I am talking in terms of one or two allocation changes per decade. In addition, my focus has been upon Safe Withdrawal Rates, which necessarily looks over a long time period.

My example with Merck was not to make a specific portfolio recommendation. It was to point out that you have many more options available than those that are built into Safe Withdrawal Rate calculators. There are broad-based indexes that are reasonably safe but which throw off higher dividends than the S&P500 does at this moment. In addition, there are REITS, which I know relatively little about, but which have been around for only a short time.

For retirement purposes, people are seldom interested in the best average returns alone. They are usually looking for an income floor that is reasonably well assured plus some growth, but not at great risk.

Yes, I have read William Bernstein's The Four Pillars of Investing.

[Bernstein's single, consistent error is that he acts as if accepting higher risk guarantees a higher return. The proper way to state things is that you should never accept any risk with receiving adequate compensation.]

The reason that almost all money managers fail to keep up with the market is their expenses. I consider a long-term advantage of 1% as excellent and 2% to be rare and outstanding. If active managers kept all mutual fund fees well below 0.5%, I think that they could give low cost index funds a run for their money. [WARNING: hidden trading costs add to expenses. Buying or selling in large volumes affects prices.]

I posted brief overview of my research earlier in this post.
http://64.37.106.236/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=news;action=display;num=1078877131

The historical record shows that a total return (for the S&P500 index with dividends reinvested) that matches inflation a decade from now is highly unlikely based on today's valuations. In fact, a total return in real dollars two decades from now is unlikely to be as high as 2% above inflation. The market has very little predictability in the short-term, but it has quite a bit in the long-term. There are always dramatic moves in the market, whether as bear market rallies or as bull market corrections.

Have fun.

John R.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

Bernstein's single, consistent error is that he acts as if accepting higher risk guarantees a higher return. The proper way to state things is that you should never accept any risk with receiving adequate compensation.]

John,

I suggest that you go back and read the 4 Pillars, because he absolutely does not say this!  What he does say is that a higher risk will give you a chance of a higher return. And that you expect to receive only the chance at the higher return.

I think you'll admit that Berstein would have been a fool to say guarantee a higher return. Guarantee a Chance of higher return Yes. But only a Chance.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

It may be that I was remembering some of his posts at his web site.

I read his writings frequently.

I know that I have seen him make this error in presentation often. I do not think that he actually believes the misstatement.

Have fun.

John R.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

My experience is not good with market timing and stock picks. In the mid-90's I thought I was pretty good for a couple of years. I did so well with my investments that I convinced myself that I was pretty smart even. But over the long haul, I would have been better off in a total market index fund. As Bob Smith often points out, you have to be right twice -- when to get in and when to get out. I've had similar sub-index experience with sector funds.

Now maybe my poor results are because I'm just not as smart as some of you who are convinced that timing or trading is a good thing. Okay . . . I can accept that, but unless you give me a formula that really works for you or you are willing to give me day-to-day advice on what to buy and what to sell, it does me no good to acknowledge your superior mental abilities. I'll be better off sticking with index funds.

Regarding the site wabmester points us to: I remember reading that article previously. Although the method described did seem to provide some advantage when backtested over a significant time period, it involved some pretty drastic moves into and out of the market. It wasn't clear to me that these moves would not end up costing more in tax implications and fees than it would have made above the market index approach.

A fundamental issue I see with trying to develop a trigger formula using P/E or P/E10 is that you are buying (or selling) based on a rearview mirror metric. When you buy stock, you are buying the right to participate in future earnings -- not past earnings. If you assume that future earnings and future prices will not change dramatically from the immediate past or 10 years past, then these metrics might be of some use. But it seems to me that when the market moves most dramatically, this assumption is wrong. Yet that's exactly when you need to get in or get out.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

It is important to remember that P/E10 is based on the average of ten years of earnings. The E10 part varies slowly. It is well behaved. Prices fluctuate immediately.

I have looked at the normal, single year trailing P/E alone and in combination P/E10. It does poorly.

The underlying logic is that prices are necessarily related to earnings, although loosely. This narrows the spread in long-term returns to something less than what we would expect from the almost purely random variation that we see from one year to the next.

In terms of the 1990s and the bubble years, I believe that the rational indication would have been to avoid stocks. That is why Greenspan picked up and used the term Irrational Exuberance. But bubbles happen every now and then, no matter how obvious they may seem looking backward.

Notice that the historical sequence method does not include sequences at current valuations at the start or middle of the retirement period. Today's extreme valuations show up only at the end of the sequences. But portfolio safety is most heavily influenced by what happens at the beginning of one's retirement. After 10 or 11 years, your portfolio will have grown a lot or you may be in danger. There are very few intermediate cases.

Have fun.

John R.
 
Re: SWR should not be constant over a Retirement L

John, I briefly scanned Shiller's paper on Valuation Ratios, and I didn't see anything to get excited about.  He was basically arguing that the stock market of 1996 was overvalued, and that P/E ratios should return to historical levels.

I felt that way in 1996 too.  And in 1997.  And in 1998.  And in 1999. I finally decided at the end of 1999 that I shouldn't be investing in a market that I no longer understood, and I liquidated about 90% of my stocks.

Things don't look much better today, but at least I feel I have a better understanding of the forces contributing to the new bubble, so I plan to ride it out until those forces weaken.

One thing that Shiller's new research highlights is kind of interesting though.   He points out that just before Japan's bubble popped in 1989, investor confidence had reached an all-time high (around 90%).   Today, US investor confidence is at a similar level.

There's only one thing that scares me more than investor overconfidence, and that's when people start saying "the rules have changed."
 

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