The Most Important Part of FIRE

Casino workers need to work all the holidays and during the busy time of the year. However, they will allow people to take a month or 2 off during slow times even if you don’t have enough vacation time. You don’t get paid but we know some smart people that save and then travel so they don’t have to wait for retirement to take a long trip.
 
Good article. Do we forget how young this country is? Still an experiment. Our challenges are just beginning. Capitalism, socialism...it's not one or the other, it's right combination of both. How does a country make 350 billion people happy? And still growing.

The FIRE generation are in the sweet spot. I'm grateful everyday. Ask a Gen Z, what do you want? What would make you happy? Unbridled capitalism without thought, empathy and care would wipe out all our resources. Not that socialism is entirely empathetic or caring. It's got to be a give and take or we're screwed.
 
Rianne said:
Good article. Do we forget how young this country is? Still an experiment. Our challenges are just beginning. Capitalism, socialism...it's not one or the other, it's right combination of both. How does a country make 350 billion people happy? And still growing.

The FIRE generation are in the sweet spot. I'm grateful everyday. Ask a Gen Z, what do you want? What would make you happy? Unbridled capitalism without thought, empathy and care would wipe out all our resources. Not that socialism is entirely empathetic or caring. It's got to be a give and take or we're screwed.
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+1
 
Rianne said:
Good article. Do we forget how young this country is? Still an experiment. Our challenges are just beginning. Capitalism, socialism...it's not one or the other, it's right combination of both. How does a country make 350 billion people happy? And still growing.

The FIRE generation are in the sweet spot. I'm grateful everyday. Ask a Gen Z, what do you want? What would make you happy? Unbridled capitalism without thought, empathy and care would wipe out all our resources. Not that socialism is entirely empathetic or caring. It's got to be a give and take or we're screwed.
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That's a lot of people! :D (we know what you really mean though):D
 
Yes I think the age of unbridled capitalism might be getting curtailed. Probably first up will be drugs and medical bills.

Multinational corporations might also be scrutinized, especially for taxes and employee relations.
 
VanWinkle said:
"unbridled capitalism" is all it took to lose me on this one"

no
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Oh, for goodness sake, it's an economic system, not a religion. It can and should be questioned and changed as necessary to meet our needs. We do need to be careful that the cure is not worse than the disease, but we should always be thinking of ways to improve.
 
joeea said:
"I was happier hitting the ball than reading the article."

Then this makes no sense.
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I think we all get his point, he's chosen to play golf vs. read the piece. Enough already, this wasn't a mandatory assignment.
 
Since I am choosing to waste my time watching NFL Red Zone (and being sure to get up and move during it some that I am not a complete couch potato) I did read the article :).

For those of concerned about the "unbridled capitalism" comment, perhapas that was an unfortunate phrase to use, as I thought the article was good. My only complaint - and it is me, because I try to write in very "net" terms" - was that the author was clearly getting paid by the word, the points could have been made in half the time. :)

I agree with the main point, that workers across the spectrum - including those making very good wages - are spending so much time working, or monitoring their work (e.g. doing email on vacation, something I was guilty of), that less time is being spend on family and personal social interaction. Also, with everything open all of the time, not only does that mean workers are working during formerly "closed" times, but consumers are spending their time at those places.

I think the author should have used, as a contrast example, Chick-Fil-A (I would not be surprised if that was avoided since that name could instantly cause some people to boycott the article and call for the authors head :)). They still have a policy of refusing to open on Sunday, to give their workers at least that day off. Few companies do anything like that these days. Surely if they were a public company they would be castigated by investors for that practice. But, given the long lines I see at every franchise when they are open, it does not seem to be hurting them.

The essence of the article, for me, is that, at a certain point, Time > Money. Deciding when that occurs varies by individual. From an FIRE perspective, it is a key decision point to decide.

I noticed that the article was more focused on "what can companies do to fix this" versus "what choices can an individual make to fight this trend, such as LBYM. So perhaps that is where the "Unbridled capitalism" view comes from. However, I differ in that individuals in many cases can make those choices to go against the flow, if they focus on more on what they truly need versus what they want, or what others have that they want. :)
 
I think some better focus on this might help. We were traveling recently and pulled off to eat at chick fil a and it was closed because it was Sunday. We thought that was a good thing. Costco has good hours for their team and seems to do pretty well. We like it that many companies refuse to open on Thanksgiving. I don’t mind a little inconvenience from companies I use as long as it’s for the right reasons.

Reminds me of a story. Many years ago, I found myself in a sleepy southern town and needed cash. I was getting gas and I asked to old fella next to me if he knew where I could get some cash. I said something like “if you needed money today, where would you go?” He said something I’ll never forget.

“Son. If I needed money today, I would have gone to the bank on Friday.”

There are ways to make things work without running all of ourselves into the ground.
 
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Jerry1 said:
I think some better focus on this might help. We were traveling recently and pulled off to eat at chick fil a and it was closed because it was Sunday. We thought that was a good thing. Costco has good hours for their team and seems to do pretty well. We like it hat many companies refuse to open on Thanksgiving. I don’t mind a little inconvenience from companies I use as long as it’s for the right reasons.

Reminds me of a story. Many years ago, I found myself in a sleepy southern town and needed cash. I was getting gas and I asked to old fella next to me if he knew where I could get some cash. I said something like “if you needed money today, where would you go?” He said something I’ll never forget.

“Son. If I needed money today, I would have gone to the bank on Friday.”

There are ways to make things work without running all of ourselves into the ground.
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True, but keep in mind that some people want to work holidays. When I was in college working in fast food, I always volunteered to do so as the premium pay was worth it to me.
 
I found the article to be well written. Most Atlantic pieces do go on for awhile, and challenge the reader.

The demands on workers are increasing. If I was starting out I'd probably have Outlook on my mobile. Where I work I see a leader dedicating one monitor to the group calendar. Given the nature of the work, it's kinda overkill. Everything's on schedule.
 
Scuba said:
True, but keep in mind that some people want to work holidays. When I was in college working in fast food, I always volunteered to do so as the premium pay was worth it to me.
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DH's first job out of college was for a 24/7/365 manufacturing facility. Chip fab - they literally can't shut down the machines for any length of time without significant maintenance work needed upon restarting. He would volunteer for every holiday, that triple time was a big help when we were just getting started.

I think it's great for people to have the option to work holidays if they want, it's the required (or implied required) work that gets me, and I'm not sure how to ensure it's truly voluntary.
 
Retail workers don’t get paid enough to work holidays so I won’t shop on those days and add to the misery. Now if you work in a casino it’s understandable that holidays and weekends are mandatory.
 
jollystomper said:
I agree with the main point, that workers across the spectrum - including those making very good wages - are spending so much time working, or monitoring their work (e.g. doing email on vacation, something I was guilty of), that less time is being spend on family and personal social interaction. Also, with everything open all of the time, not only does that mean workers are working during formerly "closed" times, but consumers are spending their time at those places.

The essence of the article, for me, is that, at a certain point, Time > Money. Deciding when that occurs varies by individual. From an FIRE perspective, it is a key decision point to decide.
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I agree that people spend so much time working they have less and less time for their families and social interaction. But I would also say that we live in a time when its become very easy, and almost expected, for people (even within their own houses and family units) to retreat to there respective areas and their TV's, phones and social media apps. Even the smallest things like eating together at the table have become passe' and that is one of the things that helps bring family units together.

There was a lady that used to work for me would tell me she didn't have time to cook meals for her family each night. But she would tell me how she binge watched shows or spent 3 to 4 hours watching TV each night.

I only bring these up because I believe that even if you gave people more time, I dont know that this would equal social interaction.
 
Jeffman52 said:
I agree that people spend so much time working they have less and less time for their families and social interaction. But I would also say that we live in a time when its become very easy, and almost expected, for people (even within their own houses and family units) to retreat to there respective areas and their TV's, phones and social media apps. Even the smallest things like eating together at the table have become passe' and that is one of the things that helps bring family units together.

There was a lady that used to work for me would tell me she didn't have time to cook meals for her family each night. But she would tell me how she binge watched shows or spent 3 to 4 hours watching TV each night.

I only bring these up because I believe that even if you gave people more time, I dont know that this would equal social interaction.
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I agree. It's not work that prevents people from spending time with their family or having satisfying social interaction.

People make time for whatever they consider to be important.
 
I'm fine with putting some bridles on capitalism, but never mind that.

If the overall point is that the most important part of happy retirement is being able to determine your own schedule (i.e., where your time and energy goes), I completely agree. Hard to argue with that one. I guess the only challenge is that it is a 24/7 responsibility, and some people would rather have a job do it for them.

I also agree that "making the most of time" is very important. It's something I deal with every day in retirement, with varying degrees of success. I think it's important not to get too perfectionistic or goal-driven about it. We don't want to turn retirement into a job. Spending time on silly diversions is allowed.
 
Wow, I've been fortunate to w#rk as a consultant for the past 28 years. My schedule has varied from 8-9 hour days (5 days a week), to 10-hour days, 4 days a week. Except for about three Saturdays, and a handful of travel days on Sundays, I've not had to work the weekends. I've not had to work nights. I've kept my working hours to 50 or less per week, with most weeks averaging 40 hours. I've been fortunate to have 3 to 4 weeks off per year, plus standard holidays, for most of my adult life. Jobs like mine still do exist, but they are becoming exceedingly rare. And even those with the opportunity to stick to such schedules, succumb to w#rking longer days, to appease management, or to show that they are w$rking harder than their colleagues. Few salaried w$rkers, IMHO, are actually more productive, despite their increased hours.

Balance in everything. This article is yet another reason to plan, save, and invest, because your j#b may not exist forever, and it's always good to have options!
 
Jobs have gotten worse and worse. At my last job the front desk ladies had to check their schedules at the end of EVERY SINGLE DAY to see if they had to work the next day or not! Imagine those with children or elderly parents to take care of- or whatever other responsibilities! Try to make an appointment! I was lucky enough to be a somewhat independent field employee- but I would have quit on the spot with that schedule!


Now at my husband's job- the national company he works for is instituting a PTO Phase system. (don't you love the way they spin the changes each year?- try to make them seem better when they are almost always for the worse and in favor of the employer and not the employee).


Employees now have to put in for their PTO time in November- the year BEFORE they plan to take them.(used to be in February of the current year). Only 2 weeks allowed to be put in for. If you have more then you have to wait for the second phase in November before you can put them in to be approved. Lastly- the third phase is the "waiting list". And you cannot put in for 2 weeks where there are two holidays involved. They consider one week a Sunday to a Saturday. (see what they did there? Covering the XMAS/New Years weeks scenario).


This as they lay off more people and centralize and outsource things to India.



SMH... Thank goodness he is retiring 12/31.
 
The best thing about retirement is being master of your own time. Some people have a lot of difficulty with that kind of freedom given 30-40 years of having the same work/weekend routine for all that time.



I took an early retirement with a reduced monthly pension in 2001 with my kids still in high school. I was 47 and it was a bit scary because I didn't want to go be a full time employee anywhere any more. I wanted to be the master of my own time. I didn't want to earn no money (DW was working and 3 years younger and extremely supportive of the decision), so I took on jobs I wanted to do. I was an organist for a small church for 10 years, did tax preparation one year, coached girls high school bowling for 8 years, graded standardized tests for a while and took two good-paying consulting jobs (one for 14 months the other for 5.5 years) where I was able to work on my own schedule almost all the time.



That went on for 13+ years and during that time I was able to spend more time with my children and shuttle them to and from college as needed without worrying about whether I'd have to take PTO. I finally retired for good in 2014 at age 60 and have not looked back. Most days are good. I have hobbies and interests and go to the local bridge club at least a couple of times a week just to make sure I get out of the house and interact with people. I've volunteered to serve on boards of non-profits. All of that keeps the brain going and I can honestly say I've never been happier.


Time is what you make of it whether retired or working. Even when retired you can make your time as structured or unstructured as you like. If you are happier on a schedule, make yourself one. There's plenty of daily/weekly things to do even when retired. If you are happier without one, go with the flow. Just find what makes you happy.
 
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