Those Who don't/didn't do Roth Conversions

[PERSonalTime]

I and DW have significant amounts of T-IRA/401K funds. Pension meets our day-to-day needs, and we have not done any Roth conversions.

At this stage in life, we really don't want to be bothered with doing the conversions. I'm interested in hearing from others who have NOT done Roth conversions and do NOT plan to do so. Why did you make that choice, and do you lose sleep worrying about potential or current RMD issues?

 

[HI Bill]

I haven’t. My priority in my first decade of ER is maximizing spending. Not worried about inheritance tax issues. Will have to pay more in taxes in the mid-60s onward, but according to Bernicke, our spending will decrease and SS will kick in.

 

[Kings over Queens]

I am in a disagreement with my CPA about conversions. He strongly feels against them, refuses to consider them for himself, simply put, he would prefer to accumulate more wealth with tax deferrals and letting the government contribute to that. He is 68 and still deferring.

His words, "I don't care about the tax after I'm dead, my kids can deal with it." He isn't worried about RMD's.

That's his view as recently as August of this year.

 

[COcheesehead]

I haven’t.
Why?
High tax bracket
No heirs
Removing assets to pay the tax from portfolio that could continue to grow - reducing asset base.
RMDs aren’t required until we hit 75
It’s prepaying a tax you may never owe.
It’s an educated guess at best about paying a tax now that we would not owe for almost 20 years.

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

I am a conversion advocate, trying to use all the tools at my disposal.

That having been said, it is a small lever! In most cases, it won't make a great deal of difference. Don't want to use it? Don't use it! Don't worry, be happy.

 

[ERD50]

If you are already taking pensions that meet your spending, you probably aren't really in a position to benefit from Roth conversions. So don't. It's not one-size-fits-all.

I'm taking them for the next few years as I'm delaying my pension and SS, so I can convert to the top of the 12% bracket, and my taxes will clearly be much higher rate with SS, pension and RMD.

But that's my situation, and it doesn't sound like yours.

-ERD50

 

[RetiredAt49]

The only reason why I perform Roth Conversions is to “generate taxable income”. The only reason I have to generate income is to keep above Medicaid limits and hit an ACA sweet spot where I hardly pay for health insurance thanks to subsidies.

Additionally, I’m 51 and a majority of my NW is in a taxable brokerage account. During bear markets, I perform TLH so I seldom incur capital gains (because I have years worth of losses I carry forward) so enjoying hardly paying a dime in taxes even when performing Roth Conversion (although the amount is usually only around $30-$40k a year - again just enough to be above Medicaid limits).

 

[Sunset]

OP - Do you do long term capital gains harvesting to get tax free money or are your pensions too high ?

 

[fh2000]

The only reason why I perform Roth Conversions is to “generate taxable income”. The only reason I have to generate income is to keep above Medicaid limits and hit an ACA sweet spot where I hardly pay for health insurance thanks to subsidies.

We are 67 and 62. We do the same, very small amount of Roth Conversion just to allow DW to reach ACA income lower limit.

When she reaches 65 and start Medicare, we will re-evaluate if we need to increase conversion or not.

 

[COcheesehead]

The only reason why I perform Roth Conversions is to “generate taxable income”. The only reason I have to generate income is to keep above Medicaid limits and hit an ACA sweet spot where I hardly pay for health insurance thanks to subsidies.

Additionally, I’m 51 and a majority of my NW is in a taxable brokerage account. During bear markets, I perform TLH so I seldom incur capital gains (because I have years worth of losses I carry forward) so enjoying hardly paying a dime in taxes even when performing Roth Conversion (although the amount is usually only around $30-$40k a year - again just enough to be above Medicaid limits).

Income vs capital gain tax? You can only shelter $3000 of income above capital loss vs gain.

 

[RetiredAt49]

Income vs capital gain tax? You can only shelter $3000 of income above capital loss vs gain.

Capital losses can be carried forward for any number of years to offset future capital gains. $3k of those capital losses can also be applied to offset any earned income annually.

For example, during the bear last year I performed a lot of tax loss harvesting (roughly $400k). I had minor capital gains last year (say $10k) so I get to carry forward $390k in capital losses to offset future capital gains.

 

[COcheesehead]

Capital losses can be carried forward for any number of years to offset future capital gains. $3k of those capital losses can also be applied to offset any earned income annually.

For example, during the bear last year I performed a lot of tax loss harvesting (roughly $400k). I had minor capital gains last year (say $10k) so I get to carry forward $390k in capital losses to offset future capital gains.

I get that, but it’s only $3000 per year against income which is how withdrawals are taxed - how conversions are taxed.

 

[GhostofTomJoad]

Well, wife and I pay zero fed. tax. Someone said above: to convert T-IRA to Roth is paying a tax we may never owe. Many years in age between us. She will retire to the old country after I'm gone. Much lower cost of living. She'll continue to get 50% of my traditional pension, plus she can use dividends and capital gains to do whatever she wants. She'll be the one to worry about who gets the rest of the portfolio, before it's her turn to die. There is already a brand-new house on her family's land she had built. Well, I certainly helped with the cost, too. So she DOES have a place to go. Her brother inhabits it already.

....I traditionally remove a few thousand in Jan. and aim to grow the taxable investment account. The amount removed never is big enough to change our tax situation. But 2023 has not been a great year. We'll see what the portfolio looks like on 31 December.

 

[PERSonalTime]

I am a conversion advocate, trying to use all the tools at my disposal.

That having been said, it is a small lever! In most cases, it won't make a great deal of difference. Don't want to use it? Don't use it! Don't worry, be happy.

Thanks OtL!

 

[PERSonalTime]

If you are already taking pensions that meet your spending, you probably aren't really in a position to benefit from Roth conversions. So don't. It's not one-size-fits-all.



I'm taking them for the next few years as I'm delaying my pension and SS, so I can convert to the top of the 12% bracket, and my taxes will clearly be much higher rate with SS, pension and RMD.



But that's my situation, and it doesn't sound like yours.



-ERD50

Correct. We're already in the 22% bracket.

 

[PERSonalTime]

OP - Do you do long term capital gains harvesting to get tax free money or are your pensions too high ?

Too high.[emoji849] But is that really a bad thing?

 

[pb4uski]

I am in a disagreement with my CPA about conversions. He strongly feels against them, refuses to consider them for himself, simply put, he would prefer to accumulate more wealth with tax deferrals and letting the government contribute to that. He is 68 and still deferring.

His words, "I don't care about the tax after I'm dead, my kids can deal with it." He isn't worried about RMD's.

That's his view as recently as August of this year.

A retired CPA here. If your CPA lives to be 100 then he might care more. In my experience, few CPAs are really knowledgable about personal financial planning and retirement planning unless they are one of the few who specialize in that niche practice area. Most CPAs are audit or tax focused and are clueless about when Roth conversions are beneficial and when they are not.

He might not yet have done the math and thinks that deferral is always better which is a popular misconception. If you do the math, Roth conversions are really just a tax arbitrage game... voluntarily paying some now to avoid paying more later. Me and other retired CPAs and financial professionals on this forum who have studied Roth conversions think that it makes a lot of sense in many, but not all, circumstances.

In fairness, it is also situational... a tradeoff between what one would pay in tax today vs later. If unstarted pensions and SS will push you from 12% to 22%, then there are substantial savings to be had to at least convert to the top of the 12% bracket. OTOH, if unstarted pensions and SS will push you from 22% to 24% then it isn't very lucrative. So while if may not be lucrative for him, it might be worthwhile for you or vice versa.

For us, the benefits are substantial so we are doing them. For a more modest income friend, he can make measured withdrawals in the first decade and never pay federal taxes again as long as he lives unless he sells his rental property so I recommended that he just do withdrawals from tax-deferred to his brokerage account rather than Roth conversions.

For many people in ER living off of taxable savings until pensions and SS start will have headroom to do 0%, 10% or 12% Roth conversions vs paying 22% once pensions and SS start so it is a no brainer.

 

[pb4uski]

Well, wife and I pay zero fed. tax. Someone said above: to convert T-IRA to Roth is paying a tax we may never owe. Many years in age between us. She will retire to the old country after I'm gone. Much lower cost of living. She'll continue to get 50% of my traditional pension, plus she can use dividends and capital gains to do whatever she wants. She'll be the one to worry about who gets the rest of the portfolio, before it's her turn to die. There is already a brand-new house on her family's land she had built. Well, I certainly helped with the cost, too. So she DOES have a place to go. Her brother inhabits it already.

....I traditionally remove a few thousand in Jan. and aim to grow the taxable investment account. The amount removed never is big enough to change our tax situation. But 2023 has not been a great year. We'll see what the portfolio looks like on 31 December.

If you pay zero federal tax then you likely have some headroom to do Roth conversions and still pay no tax at all. In that case, that amount is a no-brainer to do at least that amount rather than let that headroom go wasted.

Absent Roth conversions we would pay no tax so we have an amount of headroom that we could convert and our tax bill would still be zero so that is a nobrainer.

 

[pb4uski]

Capital losses can be carried forward for any number of years to offset future capital gains. $3k of those capital losses can also be applied to offset any earned income annually.

For example, during the bear last year I performed a lot of tax loss harvesting (roughly $400k). I had minor capital gains last year (say $10k) so I get to carry forward $390k in capital losses to offset future capital gains.

Plus you can use up to $3,000 annually to offset ordinary income.

 

[big-papa]

Just retired this past summer but still looking at the possibility of conversions, perhaps starting next year. I've looked at it a number of different ways so far and I always come back to the same results: the benefit for our spending is marginal at best. Because the decision/analysis for Roth conversions always require some sort of prediction about the future, I'm worried that it wouldn't take much of a change to move the needle from "marginal" to "worse" when reality doesn't match predictions. Legacy/heirs are not a consideration for this for us.

Still, however, I'm not done looking at it.

Cheers.

 

[Kings over Queens]

A retired CPA here. If your CPA lives to be 100 then he might care more. In my experience, few CPAs are really knowledgable about personal financial planning and retirement planning unless they are one of the few who specialize in that niche practice area. Most CPAs are audit or tax focused and are clueless about when Roth conversions are beneficial and when they are not.

The question I asked him during the discussion, "But Peter, as a CPA, aren't you hard wired to avoid or delay tax as long as possible?" He responded affirmatively.

In his defense, he mirrored your sentiments, in that it's not a one size fits all situation.

We're getting into the weeds a little as the OP asked for comments from people who haven't or won't do conversions. I do appreciate your reply. Haven't started yet, but I'm in the pro conversion camp. I'm funding roths instead of deferring presently.

 

[punkinhead]

I haven't because we're in the same marginal rate now as when we were working. Having more Roth would help if one of us died and went from MFJ to single or if marginal rates went up significantly. But the downside is IRMAA for my wife and lower ACA subsidies for me. We're a marginal case so whether Roth conversions are good or bad depends on our assumptions and even with pro-Roth assumptions it doesn't make a substantial difference.

 

[jebmke]

We stopped doing Roth conversions when we reached a point where we decided that all of our estate would go to charity.

 

[DayDreaming]

I did a couple of years of Roth conversions prior to the ACA. Once I started getting my health insurance from the ACA, I didn't want the additional income from Roth conversions so I stopped doing them.


Basically, I'm in great shape financially. Looking at i-ORP, it shows that if I don't do Roth conversions, I will die with more money than I ever imagined. And shows that if I do Roth Conversions, I'll end up with a little bit more when I die. I've decided that I'm not going to worry about it, and probably won't do any more conversions. I should also note that I have no heirs and my money will be willed to charities.

 

[target2019]

It comes down to how you feel about paying more tax now, versus what happens at RMD time.

With hard numbers entered into a spreadsheet, you can see the effect over time. Age is a significant factor.