Trader Joe's vs. Amazon and the rest of them

[CaptTom]

I just don't look at it as what xyz company "has to do". They are free to do as they wish (within the law/regs)...

You can make all sorts of comparisons like this. If a car manufacturer is successful selling only high performance, expensive cars, does it hold that's the model all car makers should follow?

...I'll say it again - if you think this is so simple, do mankind a favor and start and grow a successful business that treats its employees and customers like kings. Grow it so big and so well that everyone will want to work for you and be your customer. We would all appreciate that.

Basically, I'm saying it is easy to be an armchair quarterback.

-ERD50

I don't disagree with anything you say. That's the way the system works, and I'm nothing but an armchair quarterback.

But I'm not stupid. Many of these corporations lie to their employees, stockholders and the public. The motive appears to be pure, selfish, one-sided greed.

The argument that "greed is good," or is necessary for a business to succeed, falls apart when some companies demonstrate that ethical behavior toward employees, customers and stockholders CAN be successful.

When I hear a lie, I'm going to call BS. I'm not trying to change the world. I'm just following my own internal code of ethics.

 

[ERD50]

I don't disagree with anything you say. That's the way the system works, and I'm nothing but an armchair quarterback.

But I'm not stupid. Many of these corporations lie to their employees, stockholders and the public. The motive appears to be pure, selfish, one-sided greed.

The argument that "greed is good," or is necessary for a business to succeed, falls apart when some companies demonstrate that ethical behavior toward employees, customers and stockholders CAN be successful.

When I hear a lie, I'm going to call BS. I'm not trying to change the world. I'm just following my own internal code of ethics.

And I agree that lying to employees, stockholders and the public is wrong, in many (most?) cases it would be illegal, and I would like to see prosecution to reign it in.

I think you can follow "greed is good", without crossing the line into unethical practices. It's a matter of degrees. The "greed is good" mantra drives competition and can push people to do far more than they may have thought possible. Any tool can be used for good or bad.

And of course, some of this gets subjective. A US workers description of being 'screwed' in the workplace, or not treated 'well', would likely be a slice of heaven for most 3rd world workers. And as I said, these 3rd world countries are placing pressure on our labor market. But those people are being helped. I strongly suspect that the overall for humanity is very positive. Our isolation, and position as a super industrial power after WWII just might have spoiled us. It's the rest of the world's turn to share in the wealth.

I'll skip the direct (hypothetical) challenge to you to start a business that treats everyone like kings, but the reality is, if company A is really treating people that bad, that provides an opportunity for company B to attract those employees with a better environment (total compensation). It can only get so bad, and with unemployment figures dropping, companies are going to have to compete for labor.

I suggest making yourself far more valuable to your employer than a 3rd world worker. You'll have options.

I'll also add that I recall when people in high demand fields were 'job hopping', and getting 20% or higher increases, moving from one company to another every 18 months. I don't recall any tears for these corporations being 'mistreated' by the employees.

-ERD50

 

[Chuckanut]

I'll also add that I recall when people in high demand fields were 'job hopping', and getting 20% or higher increases, moving from one company to another every 18 months. I don't recall any tears for these corporations being 'mistreated' by the employees.

-ERD50

You make a good point about the job hopping. I saw a lot of that in the 1970's in the field of IT. Alas, most of the guys I know who did it wasted their money on fancy cars and high living. One fellow used the extra cash to buy several rentals so as to free himself from being what he called a 'wage slave'. He was one of the smart ones.

OTOH, in the late 1990's as people were preparing for the year 2000 computer disaster (remember? planes falling out of the sky, hospital equipment killing patients, all manner of devices would just stop working properly) I was offered the chance to more than double my yearly earnings as a public school teacher if I would take a job updating and maintaining legacy COBOL programs. However, I was being treated well for the most part and I had that rare benefit called a DB pension that I did not want to give up. And it helped I enjoyed my job and the students at that time. So, I turned down some pretty nice salary offers. I think I made the right move.

It's a feedback loop to a certain extent, between the employer and the employee. One breaks the loop at his/her own risk.

 

[CaptTom]

I think you can follow "greed is good", without crossing the line into unethical practices. It's a matter of degrees. The "greed is good" mantra drives competition and can push people to do far more than they may have thought possible. Any tool can be used for good or bad.

I agree with almost everything you've said. I'm only continuing this because it's an interesting discussion, and as you say, we're hovering around some grey areas which make simple, black-and-white answers seem incomplete.

And of course, some of this gets subjective. A US workers description of being 'screwed' in the workplace, or not treated 'well', would likely be a slice of heaven for most 3rd world workers. And as I said, these 3rd world countries are placing pressure on our labor market. But those people are being helped. I strongly suspect that the overall for humanity is very positive. Our isolation, and position as a super industrial power after WWII just might have spoiled us. It's the rest of the world's turn to share in the wealth.

Again, true enough. Lately I've been watching history documentaries during my morning work-out, and I'm starting to realize just how great it is to be alive, here, at this time. The vast majority of humans who have ever lived have been in far, far worse conditions. Many still are.

But take that same argument, and zoom in on income disparity in the US. Zoom in even more, and compare worker compensation to executive compensation.

I am grateful to have had a job making ten times more than an unskilled worker in China. Likewise, the top executives should be grateful making ten times more than me. Why do they need many times that much?

I'll skip the direct (hypothetical) challenge to you to start a business that treats everyone like kings, but the reality is, if company A is really treating people that bad, that provides an opportunity for company B to attract those employees with a better environment (total compensation). It can only get so bad, and with unemployment figures dropping, companies are going to have to compete for labor.

I hope you're right. And I think we're starting to see that. But I don't think it'll go as far or as fast as it should. Interlocking boards and top executives all feathering each other's nests are pretty firmly entrenched. It'll be hard to claw back the huge disparity they created when labor was cheap.

I suggest making yourself far more valuable to your employer than a 3rd world worker. You'll have options.

Which is exactly what I did for 36 years.

I'll also add that I recall when people in high demand fields were 'job hopping', and getting 20% or higher increases, moving from one company to another every 18 months. I don't recall any tears for these corporations being 'mistreated' by the employees.

Well then, those companies should just have made themselves more valuable to their employees, right?

I can assure you these companies weren't crying for the employees who were facing benefit cuts and harsher work environments, when the job market went the other way.

 

[Scuba]

One big reason companies like Southwest and Trader Joe’s have lower labor costs and happier employees is they aren’t unionized like many of the larger airlines and grocery chains are. The company I used to work for had two unionized locations and many others that weren’t. Eventually the employees at the unionized sites saw that non-unionized employees actually got better benefits and job advancement, so they voted to de-unionize. Win-win for employees and the company.

 

[razztazz]

One big reason companies like Southwest and Trader Joe’s have lower labor costs and happier employees is they aren’t unionized like many of the larger airlines and grocery chains are. The company I used to work for had two unionized locations and many others that weren’t. Eventually the employees at the unionized sites saw that non-unionized employees actually got better benefits and job advancement, so they voted to de-unionize. Win-win for employees and the company.

Not cause and effect. It only works if the employers treat the workers well in the first place. Then they won't be inclined to unionize. If they aren't being treated right then unionizing is the better option. It's just weird to say "They are happier and have better job lives because they aren't unionized."

Now, continue talking about Trader Joe's et al

 

[jazz4cash]

Not cause and effect. It only works if the employers treats the works well in the first place. Then they won't be inclined to unionize. If they aren't being treated right then unionizing is the better option. It's just weird to say "They are happier and have a better job live because they aren't unionized."

Now, continue talking about Trader Joe's et al

+1

 

[Scuba]

Not cause and effect. It only works if the employers treat the workers well in the first place. Then they won't be inclined to unionize. If they aren't being treated right then unionizing is the better option. It's just weird to say "They are happier and have better job lives because they aren't unionized."

Now, continue talking about Trader Joe's et al

I agree that employees must be treated well to not want to unionize. However there is definitely a productivity and profit advantage for those companies who manage to stay non-union.

 

[razztazz]

I agree that employees must be treated well to not want to unionize. However there is definitely a productivity and profit advantage for those companies who manage to stay non-union.

Definitely, of course there is. So, why don't they do it? Adam Smith said the same thing and asked the same question. But businesses in some warped personalization of ownership and marketplace have always tended to see labor as paper clips, hay for the horses and such. Expendable, replaceable, unfortunate expenses. But, yes, in a nutshell, if they treated workers, I'll just use the word "right", they'd be happier, at least likelier more productive (there's a limit with and without a gun pointed at your head) and less likely to unionize and see the relationship as adversarial.

 

[clifp]

A recent posting mentioned Amazon including some subtly labeled sponsored gift items in a list of baby shower items made by a customer.

Today I listened to this Freakonimics podcast (#359) on Trader Joe's and how it operates. They examine the big difference between modern grocery store marketing and how TJ's does it. Given that Amazon now owns a supermarket, I figure that is a good comparison to look at.

Should America Be Run by … Trader Joe’s? (Ep. 359) - Freakonomics Freakonomics

Just wanted to second the recommendation for this podcast. I'm admittedly a huge fan of the Freakonomics folks, and listen to many but by no means all of their podcasts. This was one of my favorites.

 

[Chuckanut]

Trader Joe’s has no loyalty program. [emoji33] No little card to scan. No discounts for special people like me. No online ordering!!!

How can it possibly survive?

:sarcasm:

 

[disneysteve]

I’ve been to TJ many times but have never seen the appeal. Very very small selection. Very very few of the products we buy regularly. And generally pricey. Stores are also really small. No self checkout is a negative too.

As for WF, I go there almost never. High prices. Not stuff we buy regularly.

I do the bulk of our shopping at Wegmans. Great selection. Great prices. Over the past year or so I’ve also been shopping more at Walmart and Aldi. There are a few Aldi items that we like and Walmart has better prices on some of the stuff we get at Wegmans. Number one complaint about Aldi is the lack of self checkout.

 

[braumeister]

I’ve been to TJ many times but have never seen the appeal. Very very small selection. Very very few of the products we buy regularly. And generally pricey. Stores are also really small. No self checkout is a negative too.

As for WF, I go there almost never. High prices. Not stuff we buy regularly.

Exactly my opinions. But we're probably outliers, since so many folks really like those places.

Nearly all my grocery shopping is at one of the largest Kroger stores which happens to be close to home, so my selection is vast and the prices are usually pretty good. Coupons and gas discounts are also a plus. I also like Costco, but that's farther away so I only go there about once a month. There is a little Aldi nearby and I like their baby back ribs better than what I can get elsewhere.

 

[disneysteve]

We do also have a BJs membership and go there about once a month for certain items.

 

[Midpack]

We go to TJ’s for several things (frozen lunches, HBA, sprouted bread, chocolate, etc.), good prices-value IME. We like tech, but never noticed how TJ is different. But it would be hard to rely on them for everything. So we buy most of our stuff at Harris Teeter (fuel points are nice), Costco and Target. We’re regulars at all four, depending on price/value for each. We shop at WF a couple times a year at most, seems like more of a statement than grocery.

 

[MarieIG]

I go to TJ's very rarely. Last time I went solo, there was a tremendous line and I walked out.

DH will go from time to time to pick up some Eziekiel bread, if he can't find it elsewhere. I'll go with him occasionally to see if there is anything I want (maybe some organic frozen vegetables or some other exciting find).

 

[ERD50]

I’ve been to TJ many times but have never seen the appeal. Very very small selection. Very very few of the products we buy regularly. And generally pricey. Stores are also really small. No self checkout is a negative too.

...

Actually, once you learn your way around their products, all of the above is a positive. And what I mean by 'learn your way around their products' is, you've learned which products you like, and are offered at a good price. Some of their stuff is a very good value. And even though small, they have a rather eclectic mix, so every once in a while we try something new. It might become a regular for us, or maybe not, but even then it can be fun to try something new.

Small store? Get in, get to the shelf that has what you want, grab it, grab the other things you know you buy there, and you are in/out in no time. Compared to walking up and down an entire aisle of hundreds of 'me too' products. Hmm are re-fried beans in the 'canned vegetable' area, or the 'ethnic foods' area (half-way across a huge store)?

No self checkout? OK, but if the line backs up, they ring a bell and someone comes and opens a register in no time. I rarely have to wait long at all. And, they have learned - they point out a person, and say "I'll take you here sir/madam", so no ambiguity/awkwardness about who jumps to that new line. It's some of those small things that make shopping there more pleasant than most big places.

We still need to fill out our weekly shopping with one of the larger grocery stores, but that's no different than shopping at Costco - you aren't likely to find everything you want there either, but we buy what makes sense at each place. We don't eschew one or the other because they aren't the be-all end-all.

-ERD50

 

[FindingForward]

I keep trying to like Aldi, since everyone I know seems to shop there, but after trying several times, I've given up. Every time I go, out of 8-10 register lanes, only ONE cashier is open with a ridiculously long line of grumpy people snaking back.

No manager seems to be around to lead or help and other employees are nowhere near the register. Stuff all over the floor and sloppily stocked. This was not a one-off visit experience: has happened several times.

I guess it's just a poorly managed location - but it's been this way for years. Luckily I have costco, sams, walmart and publix. Good enough for me!

 

[Sunset]

I keep trying to like Aldi, since everyone I know seems to shop there, but after trying several times, I've given up. Every time I go, out of 8-10 register lanes, only ONE cashier is open with a ridiculously long line of grumpy people snaking back.

No manager seems to be around to lead or help and other employees are nowhere near the register. Stuff all over the floor and sloppily stocked. This was not a one-off visit experience: has happened several times.

I guess it's just a poorly managed location - but it's been this way for years. Luckily I have costco, sams, walmart and publix. Good enough for me!

Sounds horrible. Try a different Aldi.

Ours is always well stocked and neat on the shelves. No piles on the floor. They open a new cash when about 4 people in the line.

I like our Aldi, but I am wary of their fresh fruit/vegies as in the past I found it goes moldy faster, maybe they buy older stuff or don't store it as well in back ?

 

[disneysteve]

They open a new cash when about 4 people in the line.

You’re lucky. At any of the stores here there is generally one cashier and the line extends up the middle aisle at most times. They badly need self checkout.

 

[Major Tom]

This thread began several years ago. I'm surprised that I didn't comment on it before as I absolutely love Trader Joe's. It is the only grocery store I have ever enjoyed shopping at. Shopping for food at other stores has always felt like a chore by comparison. My local TJ's is often busy, yet enjoyable to frequent, as it contains a microcosm of the community. Going there almost feels like a social event. The employees remind me of record store employees - there's a certain combination of industriousness and casual friendliness that makes the store comfortable for me.

Trader Joe's made the smart move of not doing their restocking overnight. They do it throughout the day. That way, there are always employees to help out if you need to find something. In contrast, the nearby Safeway is the size of a football field, and feels like a ghost town when I try to find an employee. They are nowhere to be found. Besides, I don't need an entire long aisle dedicated to nothing but soft drinks. It is huge, clean, clinical, and crashingly dull.

The checkout folk at TJ's are friendly. I like seeing the way the employees interact with each other. In the 13 years I have been going to this particular location (Oakland, CA - Lakeshore) I don't think I have ever seen a single employee who looked as if he/she really didn't want to be there, which is quite a feat in a business that involves dealing with the general public.

When I first moved to California in the late 80's, from the more mundane atmosphere of the UK, Trader Joe's had a fun and casual ambience that I wasn't used to in a market. The nautical theme, the signage, the Fearless Flyer. Gosh - I had arrived in a place where shopping for groceries could actually be novel, and fun! The fresh produce is sometimes a bit touch and go but, for that, there is a weekly farmer's market in the same neighborhood if absolute freshness is important to you. This particular store made the smart move of having only one line feeding all the checkouts, which works quite efficiently.

So yes, I like Trader Joe's. Thanks for reviving this thread Chuckanaut. It was good to see a post from haha too. Gave me good feels - as does Trader Joe's.

 

[braumeister]

You’re lucky. At any of the stores here there is generally one cashier and the line extends up the middle aisle at most times. They badly need self checkout.

Same here, and the stores are few and far between where I live.

 

[Chuckanut]

We need a store like Aldi or even (gulp!) Walmart near me. Other than TJs the local stores are owned owned mostly by Kroger or Albertsons. The others are boutique markets with prices that are way up there.

A few months ago I ended up shopping at a neighborhood Walmart grocery store. I was shocked at how much cheaper many of the items are than with the Kroger/Albertsons duopoly. I’m talking many items 15 to 40% less.

The big problem with the nearby TJs is parking.

 

[pacergal]

There is a new TJ in a nearby town. It is small, but so nice! Wide aisles, well lit up.
We go there for the variety of food choices and fun holiday offerings. Just discovered "Peruvian Inca corn snacks"-like the old cornnuts but baked/puffed and not so hard on teeth, and TJ Trail mix crackers-Yum. DGS#2 loves their dried/freeze dried fruits.
We hadn't been in one for so long. This new one had such a nice looking meat section.

Our normal shopping choices are Safeway, Walmart, Kroger, and much less often-Costco. But will now be adding more frequent TJ stops!

 

[Gotadimple]

The thing with Trader Joe's is that it has a vibe. It sells food, drink, flowers, some pet products. It has a monthly newsletter which is solely entertainment and tells you what's new in the store AND includes a grocery checklist for 'your shopping convenience.'

If you need Kosher products (you don't need to be Jewish to like Kosher products) the staples are there. Need something made well for a dog or cat - they got it. Want organic, got that too. Looking for something different - you won't find it in Kroger's (especially since the Pandemic) - but you can match up Fig jam and crumbled cheese on a TJ cracker with a nice $2 Chuck and you have hors d'oeuvres.

PLUS they are just plain nice. The stores are clean, and the fresh flowers are reasonable.