Treasury Bills, Notes, and Bonds Discussion

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... What's the vig, the points, the gravy that gets the buyer to buy my dirty old used Treasuries instead of new ones?? Has anyone sold and what kind of discount did you run into?
@calmloki, you'll probably get quicker and more accurate answers to questions like this if you just call your broker's bond desk. At Schwab, at least, I have found those guys to be both patient and helpful. Just for grins I brokerchecked one of them and he had been in the business for 17 years. So, well qualified. Again at least at Schwab they are not paid on commission.
 
What's the vig, the points, the gravy that gets the buyer to buy my dirty old used Treasuries instead of new ones?? Has anyone sold and what kind of discount did you run into?

Your sale (if large enough quantity) should be at about the same YTM as what a new bill would yield with the same duration.

For instance, using times to make the math easier. Let's say you bought a one-year T-bill at 2.04% rate (2.05% return) which would have cost $98.00 per $100.

Now assume you are 6-months into that, and decide to sell. Let's assume that rates have jumped to a 4.09% annual return. Well, your T-Bill would be worth $98.00 (Because a six month T-bill w/4.09% YTM would have a discount price of $98 per $100.)

How about a case where you would lose money? Easy - let's say the rates went from 2.05% to 5.14%. Your T-Bill would need to price at $97.50 per $100 to give a 5.14% YTM over that six-month period.)

ETA: A case where you make money but less than if rates stayed even: 6-month YTM @ 3.05, your T-Bill would price at $98.50 per $100.
ETA: A case where interest rates dropped, e.g. 6-Month YTM @ 1.01%, T-Bill price is $99.50 per $100.

You can sort of use the T-Bill rate calculator: https://goodcalculators.com/treasury-bills-calculator/ to play with the price paid field to calculate the resulting YTM on a six-month remaining bill.

I'm too lazy (and busy grading endless stuff) to create a spreadsheet for this, thus the link to the calculator.

This should give you an idea of a "fair" price bid if you were to sell them on the secondary market.

SIDE NOTE: WARNING, Headache producing.
Also note that calculations for long bonds can be much complicated in terms of OID (original issue discount) and market discount from par. Here's a write up if you want to punish yourself in understanding the complicating factors: https://s3.amazonaws.com/static.contentres.com/media/documents/990086a6-d87e-46df-bdb4-681554969ee5.pdf
 
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Dumb question, How do you deal with deploying the full amount you want invested. Let's say you want to invest $10,000 but at current rates you only spend $9,700 to buy that face value. Where do you put the other $300?

Buy smaller increment of treasury, somewhere else, or do you view that as having invested $10,000.

I blow it off and just leave the small discount in MM fund which has rising yields too.
 
I blow it off and just leave the small discount in MM fund which has rising yields too.

That works. We need some new issues closer to 4%. Seems when I search, it jumps from 3% or so to 6% or so coupons around the 2-4 year mark on secondary ones.

Maybe next auction will get us closer coupons to current market rates.

My brain likes the idea of deploying close to the amount I want though I get the yield is the yield if held to maturity.
 
I only invest in 13 week and 26 week T-bills, so I guess the discount doesn’t seem that large.
 
Anyone buying 13 or 26 week T-Bills on Monday?

I am, but running out of liquid funds to transfer to Schwab. :(

I am. I am buying 3 month bills every other week in my taxable account and 3 month bills in my RO IRA every other week that I'm not buying in the taxable account.
 
I've been lengthening my maturities little by little. I bought at the 2 year auction this week and got 4.29% YTM (4.25% coupon) and will buy a little at the 52 week auction in a few days. I'm guessing the yield will be between 4.1% and 4.2%. Rates have had a tremendous rise since the beginning of the year. While I think it is likely rates will continue to rise over the next 6-12 months there are no guarantees and the rate of rise is likely to slow. I figure I may as well lock in some 4%+ yields now for the next year or two.

I still buy 26 week bills as well, but that is to fill in holes in my ladder. I'm st the point where I have something maturing ever 7-14 days so paying attention and actively rolling forward with higher yields is now part of my weekly tasks.
 
I don't understand auctions..If it's a new issue why is the coupon rate different from the YTM?

The auction determines the discount (or premium) from par. There is a discount in addition to the coupon.
 
Anyone buying 13 or 26 week T-Bills on Monday?

I am, but running out of liquid funds to transfer to Schwab. :(
Yes, I'm buying some 26 week T-Bills next week and some more the following week. I staggered a bunch of purchases starting in March when the yield on the 26 weeks were between 1-1.5%. Since the yield on the 1 yr is only about 0.1% higher I'm staying with the 26 weeks for now. Mathematically, it doesn't make sense to buy longer term if the Feds do raise the short term rates by another 0.75-1.0% between now and the end of the year.
 
So the coupon is set and then the auction price determines YTM?

Yes, for notes and bonds. For example, let's say they auction a 2 year note with a 4% coupon where half (2%) was paid semi-annually. It would be 4% YTM if the auction price was exactly $100.00. If the auction resulted it it being priced at a discount, e.g. $99.50 per $100.00, the YTM (adjusted for the semi-annual payment compounding effect) would be 4.263%.


Bills are essentially 0% so the auction determines the discount from par. For example, on a six-month T-Bill, if the auction result is $98 per $100 par, the resulting YTM is 4.123%.
 
No, but I have orders in to purchase 52 week bills at auction on Tuesday.

Put in orders for the 13 week in three accounts. It brings me in on 1/3 before the January Fed meeting . . .
 
Anyone buying 13 or 26 week T-Bills on Monday?

I am, but running out of liquid funds to transfer to Schwab. :(

Yep, buying some 13 weeks because they come due early January. but, I've been spending like a drunken sailor on T bills.

I just had a CD mature, so am trying not to spend it in one gulp.
 
What would you do?
Buy 1 yr T-Bill at auction on Tuesday, buy the the 4.34% 1 year T-Bill that Schwab has available on their offerings page, or buy 14 month Schlumberger bond (Moody's A-2) with YTM of 4.861%
 
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I had originally planned to do 13 week, but switched to 26 week because the spread has widened and 6 month is close to 1 year in yield.
 
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