When is enough , enough?

[TheWizard]

My BFF who passed at 79 this year always felt that "He who dies with the most toys, wins." SO, even though he was minus half a million dollars, he had "enough." He had enough to do all the stuff he wanted to do (though he always thought of more stuff he wanted to do.)

Can I fault him? Well, only because his DW is now picking up the pieces. Of course, she was almost as bad as he was in terms of spending money she didn't have. They lived their lives as they desired. It's not what I would have wanted but it was what they wanted.

I guess I'd have to conclude that they had enough. I know I do though YMMV.

How does someone get a net worth of MINUS $500K?

 

[brett]

That's sad. I'm watching some people go through another version of that.

They never sold options along the way. Today company's stock is way down ... and now they are getting laid off. When that happens you have 90 days to cash out vested options and everything else gets canceled. They aren't able to "wait for it to come back."

I was fortunate. I have a spouse who has an abundance common sense that she applies to these matters. Her opinion...make it happen.

I have an investment advisor who showed me some f'casts and advised me to eliminate risk as it pertains to early retirement by protecting our financial security. I listened to him and followed his sage advice.

My focus was on the net after taxes not the inevitable tax burden.

I was never one to drink the company rah rah rah, zis boom bah kool-aid!

 

[LateToFIRE]

How does someone get a net worth of MINUS $500K?

Debt

 

[LateToFIRE]

The very real problem however is that, as many have noted in other threads, there is no "burn down".

For many here, myself included despite DWs best efforts, our balances are far more today than on our first day of retirement.

I hope to experience the same - most of the models and calculators are showing me that we're more die with substantially more in NW than we start with - assuming we don't radically up-tier lifestyle, portfolio gains and passive income sources should well outpace spending, which has actually been the case even before retirement. But, I can't help but think the experience of you and many others who retired past decade or so reflects a golden era of incredibly low inflation, societal stability, and very cooperative markets. As they say, past performance is not a guaranty of future results.

 

[LateToFIRE]

I was fortunate. I have a spouse who has an abundance common sense that she applies to these matters. Her opinion...make it happen.

I have an investment advisor who showed me some f'casts and advised me to eliminate risk as it pertains to early retirement by protecting our financial security. I listened to him and followed his sage advice.

My focus was on the net after taxes not the inevitable tax burden.

I was never one to drink the company rah rah rah, zis boom bah kool-aid!

Had a business acquaintance many years ago who put his stock options into a trust for his kids, which triggered a huge tax bill, though a year later the options expired worthless when the venture went belly up. I would have felt sorry for him except for the fact that my own investment in same venture got wiped out too.

 

[GhostofTomJoad]

I think a lot depends on your motivation. Not the "how MUCH am I motivated," but the REASON that you might still be trying to grow your stash. I'm investing for heirs, so "the sky's the limit." I'll never get to the sky, but with the spouse-person still working, we are in a good and comfortable position. She's much younger. And we can still afford to add to the portfolio at least once per month. How much is enough? The question does not compute; it's just not a thing we ask ourselves. We will never be independently wealthy. But once we reach X dollars, I'll splurge and take her on a cruise and go nuts. It's expensive just to GO anywhere from where I live, in the only US State that sits on the map within Polynesia. Merry Christmas to all!

 

[Sunset]

I think a lot depends on your motivation. Not the "how MUCH am I motivated," but the REASON that you might still be trying to grow your stash. I'm investing for heirs, so "the sky's the limit." I'll never get to the sky, but with the spouse-person still working, we are in a good and comfortable position. She's much younger. And we can still afford to add to the portfolio at least once per month. How much is enough? The question does not compute; it's just not a thing we ask ourselves. We will never be independently wealthy. But once we reach X dollars, I'll splurge and take her on a cruise and go nuts. It's expensive just to GO anywhere from where I live, in the only US State that sits on the map within Polynesia. Merry Christmas to all!

Where does one go when they are already in Paradise

 

[timeforgolf]

The comments here are both interesting and enlightening. My wife is more willing to spend than I am. I sometimes wonder if I am in denial about my age and expected longevity, probably because my body is age appropriate by my brain still thinks I am 40.

 

[Car-Guy]

The comments here are both interesting and enlightening. My wife is more willing to spend than I am. I sometimes wonder if I am in denial about my age and expected longevity, probably because my body is age appropriate by my brain still thinks I am 40.

I was too until about two years ago. I'm no longer in denial. The pendulum has swung the other way and now I just hope I can make another decade. 50/50 chance.

 

[livingalmostlarge]

You don't want to end up like my in laws. Cheap to the detriment of their health. They would rather save every penny than part with any of it.

They sold a home for $750k in August. They are saving it for another home. But my mil slept in the car when my fil went to the ER for heart problems rather than use some of that money for a cab and a hotel room. Mind you they are Canadian with free medical for life, pensions, rrsp, and as equivalent.

They also refuse to pay for cell phones or long distance. So they use smartphones only on WiFi fee but no plan. So she rode the bus in the wrong direction until the driver figured it out. And used his cell phone to call her a cab to the hospital.

This is a couple with millions in the bank. This is not the first house they sold. They eat $100 of groceries a month and try to spend less than $1000 a month for expenses.

DH, his brother, and myself tell them to spend. We pay for everything since when we see them they will not pay for anything. I mean literally anything. They bought themselves coffee once at the San Diego Zoo (which I bought the tickets for) and didn't offer my husband or two kids (I didn't even expect an offer) hot chocolate or coffee. Then say there and drank it in front of my 3 and 5 year old. I told DH please get us some so we can also enjoy it during jungle balls at the zoo.

We also saw them 12/15-12/17 this year after my fil heart surgery. Did they give my kids a gift for Christmas? Nope. Have they ever? Nope. Birthday? Nope. In fact this summer my mil called my house on meta portal and asked to talk to my dk2. But since she was a day after my dk2 birthday we were on the way to camp. She told DH to have me call her at home since she didn't have long distance on her home phone so she could wish my dk2 happy birthday instead of paying $1 to call me.

Want to die with money and nothing else?

Because of my in laws I realized that I don't want to outlive my money. I'm not saying we don't save we do. But I am loosening the strings and spending more. We sold some stock this year and i decided to spend 6% maybe even 8% instead of saving all of it.

We are 44 and 46. We have to enjoy it along the way. What's the point of deprivation? To end up like my in laws? I mean we are literally going to save 92-94% of our windfall or pay taxes. Is it the end of the world to enjoy some?

 

[Luvtoride]

Living, Wow!! That is some story. Sorry to hear such a stark example of miserly living when there is no reason to be! Nothing you say will change their ways at this point.
Best of luck.

 

[FLSUnFIRE]

I hope I have enough. I expect that my spending will naturally increase as my wealth does. Just as when I was working and planning for FIRE, I allowed my spending (and saving) to increase as my income increased. Knowing myself, I think that when my portfolio hits about 1.5x my starting point I'll probably begin to feel "rich" and worry less about SORR and will start spending more...especially as I begin SEPP/start larger withdrawals to avoid RMDs later. I have a list of splurges in my mind (kitchen remodel and possibly luxury travel if I can rewire my brain to BTD).


I just slapped together this chart of my Post-FIRE NW... will be interesting to look at it again in several years. I'm hoping that the Dec update will have me back to 100%.

 

[livingalmostlarge]

My in-laws are also rude, thoughtless, greedy, and mean to people. Last year for DH cousins wedding, she lived in the same city as us and is very close to us. We knew the wedding date by 9/2021 for 8/2022. I bought tickets, booked Airbnb 3 bd, minivan all in Sept 2021. Anyway in April my bil and in laws decide they aren't going to the wedding. I make my DH call to confirm so I don't lose $$$.

Anyway I booked the Fairmont hotel across the street of the wedding venue and get a sedan for the four of us instead of 7 people. So I gave everyone notice and booked a brunch with cousin and her parents. Well two weeks before the wedding my in laws change their mind and say they are coming to the wedding, this is in another city that we have to fly too. They then get mad at us for cancelling the Airbnb and minivan. They tell us they want to stay with us and get a suite. I say no. I also say to DH cousin do not feel obligated to change the seating chart and try to invite them after the final payment had happened to come to the wedding. The RSVP was 7/1 for a wedding 8/20. They changed their mind 8/2. No go. Also we didn't cancel our brunch plans or include them. DH felt terrible for them but I put my foot down and said tough luck. Do not say one word to your cousin the bride I will strangle him. He bite his tongue and I felt vindicated that they were jerks and he finally had to acknowledge their behavior.

Demanding people accommodate them and cater to their whims. Along with expecting everyone else to pay when they have enough is enough.

 

[Texas Proud]

LOL, I was at my sister's house and she showed me what the neighbors had bought for their kid that is in kindergarten...


It was a Polaris offroad 'truck'... not sure of the model but it was a nice one... looking at prices it could be one starting at $12K... but might be more... the other was a small 4X4....


Yep, I guess they have 'enough'... BTW, he has a jacked up pickup that my sister says she can walk under the side mirrors without ducking..


I guess this should be in the 'blow that dough' thread...

 

[GhostofTomJoad]

LOL, I was at my sister's house and she showed me what the neighbors had bought for their kid that is in kindergarten...


It was a Polaris offroad 'truck'... not sure of the model but it was a nice one... looking at prices it could be one starting at $12K... but might be more... the other was a small 4X4....


Yep, I guess they have 'enough'... BTW, he has a jacked up pickup that my sister says she can walk under the side mirrors without ducking..


I guess this should be in the 'blow that dough' thread...

Ya, I just never understood that stuff. WTF is the attraction. Better BIG than LOUD, however. Somehow---dammit--- the two always seem to go together. Big AND loud together just sucks last week's bedsheets. Accomplishes nothing but to destroy everyone else's peace and quiet. Like the (many) suck-brains here, for whom artillery sized fireworks are a thrill. Not to mention the ORDINARY fireworks. Simply no consideration for humans OR pets. Mommy and daddy never got the memo, never taught them how to be civilized.

 

[cyber888]

Just retired this year. We did not spent as much as I thought.
So, I bought first-class tickets to Munich to visit Germany, Austria and Switzerland this Spring. We know that at some point, we won't be able to travel to far away places.

 

[cyber888]

Eat $100/ month ? Are they trying to starve themselves?
That's crazy.

You don't want to end up like my in laws. Cheap to the detriment of their health. They would rather save every penny than part with any of it.

They sold a home for $750k in August. They are saving it for another home. But my mil slept in the car when my fil went to the ER for heart problems rather than use some of that money for a cab and a hotel room. Mind you they are Canadian with free medical for life, pensions, rrsp, and as equivalent.

They also refuse to pay for cell phones or long distance. So they use smartphones only on WiFi fee but no plan. So she rode the bus in the wrong direction until the driver figured it out. And used his cell phone to call her a cab to the hospital.

This is a couple with millions in the bank. This is not the first house they sold. They eat $100 of groceries a month and try to spend less than $1000 a month for expenses.

DH, his brother, and myself tell them to spend. We pay for everything since when we see them they will not pay for anything. I mean literally anything. They bought themselves coffee once at the San Diego Zoo (which I bought the tickets for) and didn't offer my husband or two kids (I didn't even expect an offer) hot chocolate or coffee. Then say there and drank it in front of my 3 and 5 year old. I told DH please get us some so we can also enjoy it during jungle balls at the zoo.

We also saw them 12/15-12/17 this year after my fil heart surgery. Did they give my kids a gift for Christmas? Nope. Have they ever? Nope. Birthday? Nope. In fact this summer my mil called my house on meta portal and asked to talk to my dk2. But since she was a day after my dk2 birthday we were on the way to camp. She told DH to have me call her at home since she didn't have long distance on her home phone so she could wish my dk2 happy birthday instead of paying $1 to call me.

Want to die with money and nothing else?

Because of my in laws I realized that I don't want to outlive my money. I'm not saying we don't save we do. But I am loosening the strings and spending more. We sold some stock this year and i decided to spend 6% maybe even 8% instead of saving all of it.

We are 44 and 46. We have to enjoy it along the way. What's the point of deprivation? To end up like my in laws? I mean we are literally going to save 92-94% of our windfall or pay taxes. Is it the end of the world to enjoy some?

 

[Slim11]

Op, here, Well I think I just have to settle in, and let the idea of being retired sink in. I am still not used to it. So, I have little projects to do, and I say I can do that tomorrow. But then In a few days I have an overwhelming need to do them all as fast as possable to feel produtive. Its a mindset.

This may be the same with the money, I think I have plenty more then I need, but I keep putting off on spending it. Its a mindset. If I want something but dont need it, I am shying away from buying it.

I still have to ajust my thinking a bit, the problem lies in doing the opposite of what I have been doing so far in my life. Plus the unknow of being younger and retired. I tell people I am retired, they say you look great for 65, I say I am 50. Lol. People don't even understand it.

For now I am still pondering taking intrest distributions from my 457 plan, whether I spend it or convert it to a roth, IDK. Ill let the rest grow a bit, pay for the kidos collage in 10 years, and then at 60 maybe travel a bit more. So, is enough, enough, probably. But the fear of the unknown, and if I will be good 30 years from now. I will probably be just fine.......the more that time passes without working and seeing that the bills are paid, and everything is ok helps a lot.

 

[dknighd]

When is enough , enough?

Good question? No easy, or right, answer.

I originally thought this thread was about money, but it took on a whole new meaning after the last few posts. Sometimes toxic people have to be ignored. But that is hard to do when they are a relative.


Some random thoughts on the money thing.
I don't think my relationship with money will ever change. I like have having money in the bank! Apparently when I was 10 I took change out of the bottom of my moms purse, and put it in a bank account. I thought that money was going to waste.


I still think of money in basically the same way. All my life, before I spend money, I think: 1) can I afford this, 2) do I want to afford this, 3) is there something else I could not afford if I spent that money now? And of course, the big question, is this a waste of money?


When I was 30ish I started thinking about saving for retirement. Now I'm 60ish I started thinking about long term care, and perhaps making the house handicap accessible.


The darling one thinks we should fly first class. And we can probably afford it. But once you start, it is hard to turn back.


I've started putting deposit cans in the recycle bin. Easier than trying to get my deposit back. And they get recycled either way. I'm trying not to look at the price of things in the grocery store. We can afford groceries, becuase we have money in the bank.



I've pretty much decided, I want to die with money in the bank.

 

[dknighd]

The nice thing is, if you have money in the bank, or a reliable income, or both, you know what you can afford. You can afford part of what you have in the bank.


Always keep some aside, in case you want, or need, to go on vacation. Or have an unexpected bill. Or find somebody who needs that money more than you do.

 

[dknighd]

For most of my life, it was


1) can I afford this


Often the answer was no, not yet.

 

[Finance Dave]

My brother was a VP at a large company and made great money. Although we have similar philosophies and spending ideas, he made more money and thus was "ahead" of me in the journey to FIRE. We once were talking about asset allocation at/after FIRE, and I had been aggressive most of my life. He said "You only have to get rich once". That really stuck with me, and I've been much more conservative since he said that.

When we first met with an advisor, he recommended we keep a certain % of equities forever...it was around 40%...to keep up with inflation. I determined that if I'd w*** another 18 months or so, then have a PT gig in retirement for just a few years earning just $5k/year, I could dial that 40% back to 20%...so that's what we did. I sleep much better at the 20% equities number now. I've missed out on a lot of growth, but I also smile when the market tanks like it did in the early COVID days...and then I bought more!

 

[HMMY]

You have to balance having enough money with having enough time. Good health may be more finite than wealth, since enough wealth continues to grow even while being spent. Do things while you can. Be generous when you can. I'd rather share with warm hands then leave a bundle when I die.

 

[palomalou]

I turn lights off, clip coupons, do my own DIY, etc., etc.,



So, we're frugal as a matter of habit but have no problem spending money if it makes out life even a little bit easier. But maybe, being frugal our whole lives freed up that money so we could treat ourselves in retirement.

I am 100% with Music Lover (ha, am a retired musician), who phrased it much better than i would have.

 

[flyingaway]

My brother was a VP at a large company and made great money. Although we have similar philosophies and spending ideas, he made more money and thus was "ahead" of me in the journey to FIRE. We once were talking about asset allocation at/after FIRE, and I had been aggressive most of my life. He said "You only have to get rich once". That really stuck with me, and I've been much more conservative since he said that.

When we first met with an advisor, he recommended we keep a certain % of equities forever...it was around 40%...to keep up with inflation. I determined that if I'd w*** another 18 months or so, then have a PT gig in retirement for just a few years earning just $5k/year, I could dial that 40% back to 20%...so that's what we did. I sleep much better at the 20% equities number now. I've missed out on a lot of growth, but I also smile when the market tanks like it did in the early COVID days...and then I bought more!

Did you invest the other 80% in bond funds?