Who's watching the watchers?

justin said:
Better watch who you contribute to this election season ;)

I'm gonna send yo name in for addition to "the list" :D I hear Ann Coulter and ole Rush are going to be keeping the list (the government outsourced that duty this year).

Seriously, what's to stop a team of commandos from secreting me away at any point if they really wanted to? Regardless of the legality or constitutionality of it all? Not that I would be paranoid to think it could happen... (Anybody watch 24 here? :D :D ).

Careful they could be reading these boards! :-X
 
As long as there's no convoy of black Suburbans out rounding up posters with a warped sense of humor, I'm probably ok...
 
Mwsinron said:
Careful they could be reading these boards! :-X

heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh

Hasn't anyone ever wondered whether Missoula was a pretty bogus cover story? :D 8)
 
justin said:
There are definite limits on what the government can get by with in terms of invasion of privacy.

since there is virtually no oversight, who is setting these limits?

justin said:
For US citizens, things could be way worse and we are nowhere near the level of "getting bound and gagged and hauled out of your house in the middle of the night for interrogation by the secret police with no legal redress". Unless you count that enemy combatant that got sent to Gitmo. :D

as I understand it, the reauthorization passed in September gave the government the right to do just what you describe, to American citizens. And guess who decides if you are an "enemy combatant." And guess who gets no lawyer or redress?

I think you have to realize that we are all "free" now completely at the pleasure of the government, not because of any "rights" like those we used to have.

justin said:
Overall, I'd have to say this particular concern is of limited relevance to me and doesn't really occupy much of my thoughts.

spoken like a true good German. You are the one that brought up the comparison first....
 
brewer12345 said:
Until the next election, perhaps.

That's a definite "perhaps"! I'll just have to see which candidate is the least bad.
 
bosco said:
spoken like a true good German. You are the one that brought up the comparison first....

Don't know why the nationality-bashing is appropriate... Why demean me just because I choose to focus my efforts on more important issues? You probably don't know how many lives I have helped, changed, or saved or what good I have done.
 
justin said:
That's a definite "perhaps"! I'll just have to see which candidate is the least bad.

You missed my point: there should be restraints on what the gummint can do to citizens no matter which paty is in charge.
 
brewer12345 said:
You missed my point: there should be restraints on what the gummint can do to citizens no matter which paty is in charge.

No, I understood your point. I was simply stating that I have no problem exercising my right to vote as I choose. I would have no second thoughts supporting the candidate of my choice. I am not cowering in fear. I can stand up for myself. I have no paranoid delusions of being sent to Gitmo for voting one way or another or expressing discontent with the status quo.

Questions like "what would you do if the government secreted you away to Gitmo" don't preoccupy my time. I'm more concerned with things like "what if I happen to get a flat tire on the way home, and my car flips over, and there's a truck full of fireworks right next to where my car lands and there's a clown there making faces and doing typical clown tricks including one where he lights and smokes a dozen cigarettes and the hot ashes fall into the fireworks truck causing a catastrophic explosion at the exact same time as I get struck by lightning and my car lands on the ground crushing me thereby causing me to instantly die a horrible death from being crushed, exploded, and electrocuted simultaneously". In other words, I regard it as a low probability event.
 
Should I be in shock or awe that the people I associate online with are so important/offensive that they believe they are being "watched" for a reason?
 
When I watched the towers fall on Sept 11 2001 Iturned around and asked the others in the room "Well now we will find out how much freedom we are willing to give up for security".
In a free and unencumbered society you must accept that the bad guys will get you if they want to bad enough.
Currently the bad guys can still get us but they have to try a lot harder.

If the survelance level in the US is too high for someone perhaps they need to relocate to somewhere with more freedoms ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
 
I find two things kid of odd here: one is the overall lack of concern about illegal activities the US gov. has undertaken; the second is the lame defenses...

While we busy ourselves around the world giving lip-service to freedom, we don't seem to care too much about establishing a Stasi/KGB-type intelligence eschalon in the good old US of A. Complacency.

It's not about "ME being so important".. exactly the opposite. It's not about the likelihood of being "electrocuted." (We have a lot of regulations that protect people from being electrocuted BTW). It's about deciding if the US is going to be a country run according to the rule of law.. or not... whether we've decided that's old hat, boooorrring, tiresome.. or whatever.

Neither am I "preoccupied with" getting clapped into a secret prison without due process. That hardly means I should look kindly on those who pretend the power to do so.

"What won't we allow?"

..just consider what it says about this administration. Not only did Comey think that he had to rush to the hospital room to protect Ashcroft from having a conniving Card and Gonzales manipulate his severe illness and confusion by coercing his signature on a document -- behavior that is seen only in the worst cases of deceitful, conniving relatives coercing a sick and confused person to sign a new will -- but the administration's own FBI Director thought it was necessary to instruct his FBI agents not to allow Comey to be removed from the room.

Comey and Mueller were clearly both operating on the premise that Card and Gonzales were basically thugs. Indeed, Comey said that when Card ordered him to the White House, Comey refused to meet with Card without a witness being present, and that Card refused to allow Comey's summoned witness (Solicitor General Ted Olson) even to enter Card's office. These are the most trusted intimates of the White House -- the ones who are politically sympathetic to them and know them best -- and they prepared for, defended themselves against, the most extreme acts of corruption and thuggery from the President's Chief of Staff and his then-legal counsel (and current Attorney General of the United States).

Does this sound in any way like the behavior of a government operating under the rule of law, which believes that it had legal authority to spy on Americans without the warrants required for three decades by law? How can we possibly permit our government to engage in this behavior, to spy on us in deliberate violation of the laws which we enacted democratically precisely in order to limit how they can spy on us, and to literally commit felonies at will, knowing that they are breaking the law?

How is this not a major scandal on the level of the greatest presidential corruption and lawbreaking scandals in our country's history? Why is this only a one-day story that will focus on the hospital drama but not on what it reveals about the bulging and unparalleled corruption of this administration and the complete erosion of the rule of law in our country? And, as I've asked many times before, if we passively allow the President to simply break the law with impunity in how the government spies on our conversations, what don't we allow?
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/05/16/nsa_comey/index.html

in case the import of this is not clear: John Ashcroft was way too moderate for these people. John Ashcroft.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/john_ashcroft_a.html

That the Bush admin. would RISK such a scene.. just to get around the FISA court that already approves 99.995% of warrants.. doesn't give anyone pause to ask "WHY"?

Enough jokes about black SUVs.. I'm serious..
"What will it take" to get you to see the criminal intentions here?
It won't get better. It won't plateau. It will get worse. I predict we'll see more as this admin. limps into the sunset.

Senate Intelligence Committee chair, Jay Rockefeller:
"For the past six months, I have been requesting without success specific details about the program, including: how many terrorists have been identified; how many arrested; how many convicted; and how many terrorists have been deported or killed as a direct result of information obtained through the warrantless wiretapping program.
"I can assure you, not one person in Congress has the answers to these and many other fundamental questions."
 
ladelfina,

You'll have to excuse the "black SUV" comment; most of my posts are intended to be humorous, thus the :p...

My stance, as I've posted here in the past, is to prefer less govt to more, lower taxes to higher, and more freedom, not less. I AM concerned that govt in general, and this administration in particular, can and will gradually encroach on our right to privacy in the name of "security". The price of liberty is eternal vigilance...
 
I caught part of Frontline last night on PBS.

Pssst - Contractors/private databases. Saves buckets of residual costs - on Civil Service, Pensions, rules AND Lawyers love the arms length relationship.

Shades of the Cold War Days.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D for them and then- non cola pension, Psst - Space Program, contract labor :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( for me.
 
Historically, I do not see this being the case :

Posted by: ladelfina

"It's about deciding if the US is going to be a country run according to the rule of law.. or not... "

Our country, while as wonderful and prosperous as it is, is not squeaky clean in its political affairs (rules only apply when deemed necessary) - and I will not pretend it is. Nor will I turn my back on the goodness - only to be miserable and constantly complaining about the filthiness. I can hear that on the news.
 
Boy, "they" obviously have tons of files on everybody. If so:
- Where's the office with the millions of people needed to listen to it all, analyze it, and build a complete picture of the activities of all the innocent Americans? Maybe this has been outsourced to India?
- Where are the innocent Americans who have materially suffered from the abuse of this power? Where's the powerful person who had the calls to his mistress made public by the folks flying the black helicopters? Surely there's a politician whose calls were used against him by the great imperial power.

There definitely have been abuses by the intelligence community in the past (that's what the Church Commission was all about. It is also why career inteligence professionals--civilian and military--have consistently been the most reluctant to get involved with anything "close to the line." It's usually politicians who cause the trouble). We need to be constantly vigilant to avoid these abuses again (as well as abuses by civilian law enforcement, which is a largely separate animal). Folks like Ladelfina do an important service by keeping vigil for the potential of abuse. But, like everything else, balance is required. Right now I don't see any signs that abuses are really happening to innocent Americans. On the other hand, I see enough evidence of whackos on the loose that I'm convinced nobody is really doing any wide scale monitoring. If they were, I'd think we wouldn't have to count on a guy working at "Video Hut" to learn about the activities of Muslim illegal alliens planning to attack Ft Dix.
 
justin said:
Don't know why the nationality-bashing is appropriate... Why demean me just because I choose to focus my efforts on more important issues? You probably don't know how many lives I have helped, changed, or saved or what good I have done.

my point was that your argument seems to boil down to "it won't happen to me so I don't care. Facts be damned." Sound familiar?

You are probably right, nationality-bashing is not appropriate. I meant "good German" in the generally accepted context of someone who allows injustices to happen to others based on the assumption that it can't happen to them and will "play by the rules" even when the rules were wrong which seemed to me to be what you were saying. But I probably should have found a different way to make my point. Please accept my apology.

For the record, I am of 100% German descent, and German was the first language of both my parents. So if implying that you were German is demeaning, then I have also demeaned myself.

Let's also remember that "German bashing" is still acceptable, at least in a broader, non-personal sense. They were still running Hogan's Heroes when Bill Dana was long gone. Would "Springtime for Hitler" have been tolerated for any other nationality?
 
Help, please help - some black SUV's just showed up and men with suits are circling my office building... I keep hearing them mumbling something about "gitmo, gitmo" and I can hear the faint thump-thump of a helicopter in the distance. Oh no, here they com---dgfjhlad;ge//'''
 
justin,
we they have been tailing and wire tapping you since those wild days on Avent Ferry Road.

Remember seeing these guys out front? Thought they were ordinary cops didn't you?

Guess again, NSA on the left and CIA on the right. Book em, Dan O.
 

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OldAgePensioner said:
justin,
we they have been tailing and wire tapping you since those wild days on Avent Ferry Road.

Remember seeing these guys out front? Thought they were ordinary cops didn't you?

Guess again, NSA on the left and CIA on the right. Book em, Dan O.

Ooh, ooh...

Trivia: Al Lewis was also on Car 54, later to be Grandpa on The Munsters...
 
OldAgePensioner said:
justin,
we they have been tailing and wire tapping you since those wild days on Avent Ferry Road.

Remember seeing these guys out front? Thought they were ordinary cops didn't you?

Guess again, NSA on the left and CIA on the right. Book em, Dan O.

Dang - I better watch out.

I just got back from near your old stomping grounds - had to take a trip to Hope Mills and Fayetteville to straighten ( :bat: :dead: ) some folks out. I stopped by Fort Bragg and told a couple of Special Ops guys that you've been looking at dirty pictures on the internet.

Better watch out for black SUV's and slow, low-flying helicopters the next few days... ;) Let me know how the guantanamo bay area of cuba is this time of year.
 
justin,
my last stay wasn't bad. The curried goat at Gitmo Gourmet was fab.

Here in SF, the NSA uses seagulls, I'm on the 41st floor so they had to resort to camera surveillance with gull-pod technology. Those basserds.

BTW, I was in Cary about 6 months ago to get gas on the way to RDU and so I hit Western and noticed a sign announcing NC State University. When did that happen?

Also BTW, the guys in the Black SUV's might be pimps so look to see if the drivers are wearing these, if so you're in big trouble boy, NSA, book em.

HFWR,
I'd like to claim I'm too young to have watched those shows but alas, I'm older than homo erectus. Ooops, can I say that here?

I just Googled and he looked the same on both shows. Funny.
http://www.specialopswatch.com/
 
OldAgePensioner said:
BTW, I was in Cary about 6 months ago to get gas on the way to RDU and so I hit Western and noticed a sign announcing NC State University. When did that happen?

Probably 2000 or 2001? If you mean that big massive sign on western right as you get to campus - I think they call it a "gateway" (you're supposed to feel like you are entering campus!).
 
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