Wood Flooring

[eytonxav]

...which raises the level of the floor by at least 1.5" (3/4" plywood subfloor + 3/4" wood floor). I was referring to its usefulness in kitchen and bath applications, where such a height change would obviously play havoc with toe kicks, etc. There may be some people who do it, but I think it's much more common, practical, and cost-effective to use glue-down engineered flooring in such applications.

You do not need a 3/4" sub-floor, probably 1/2" plywood is sufficient for slab applications. Nevertheless, if you are just doing a kitchen or entrance way, that might be objectionable unless you can live with a beveled transition piece which I have seen used in many homes, and to me it looks fine.

 

[Cobra9777]

You do not need a 3/4" sub-floor, probably 3/8" or 1/2" plywood is sufficient for slab applications.

According to installation guidelines published by the NWFA (National Wood Flooring Association), installing a plywood subfloor over concrete requires a minimum nominal thickness of 5/8" (19/32, 15.1mm), with a preferred thickness of 3/4" (23/32, 18.3mm). Using 3/8" or 1/2" as you suggested would likely void your warranty, since NWFA installation standards are specified in most manufacturer's warranties.

(BTW, I noticed you edited your post to remove the reference to 3/8" plywood)

 

[brett]

Best floor we ever put into a kitchen was a Kars floating hardwood flooring. Looked great for years, wore well, and did not show every mark. In our kitchen for 14 years prior to us selling the home. The kitchen was the entry way to our home that was used by us and our two 2 children. Prior to selling, we did a very light sand, really akin to a steel wool rub, and applied another coat of finish. Brought it back to new.

I installed it. Once the floor was level and the first plank was squared off it went down like a dream. We live in the snow belt.....and it certainly is today.

 

[eytonxav]

According to installation guidelines published by the NWFA (National Wood Flooring Association), installing a plywood subfloor over concrete requires a minimum nominal thickness of 5/8" (19/32, 15.1mm), with a preferred thickness of 3/4" (23/32, 18.3mm). Using 3/8" or 1/2" as you suggested would likely void your warranty, since NWFA installation standards are specified in most manufacturer's warranties.

(BTW, I noticed you edited your post to remove the reference to 3/8" plywood)

I changed it from 3/8" as that seemed too thin, especially if the concrete is uneven, however I changed it well before your post, not after the fact, but its OK if you want to rub it in. I have seen subfloors in some developments that appeared to be thinner plywood, but I won't argue with the guideline, probably better to be safe than sorry.

 

[pb4uski]

The tile in our kitchen/hall/powder room had hair line cracks when we bought the place when it was one year old. By three years old, the cracks had turned in to chips. I attribute this to low quality, large tiles (13" squares) and lack of support under the tile. The tile was placed on 1/2" Durarock with plywood subfloor on 16" on center floor joists. We replaced the tile with 3/4" wood floors as part of a major remodel.

I have asked a guy who owned a tile business about the best way to support the floor for tile. He said to put in plenty of cross bracing. ....

We installed engineered wood floor in the kitchen of our prior house. It looked great and held up fine except in the sink/dishwasher area. Even though we had a rug there, the water damage was evident after just a couple years. ....

FWIW our experience has been very different.

We have 12" square tile in our entry and adjacent half-bath and have no cracks in over 3 years. The base is cementboard over the subfloor on joists that are 16" on center.

We have stranded bamboo in the great room which includes the kitchen and have had no water issues by the sink and dishwasher. That area looks the same as the dining and living areas.

 

[Mulligan]

FWIW our experience has been very different.



We have 12" square tile in our entry and adjacent half-bath and have no cracks in over 3 years. The base is cementboard over the subfloor on joists that are 16" on center.



We have stranded bamboo in the great room which includes the kitchen and have had no water issues by the sink and dishwasher. That area looks the same as the dining and living areas.

Same here with all my kitchen, entry way, and bathroom tiles of ten years. My previous 2 homes that I installed had no problems either. Guess I was fortunate, but one thing is sure. I almost created a nationwide shortage of screws when I installed the backerboard and also buttered the hell out of those tiles too.


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[MRG]

...snip.....
Please don't flame me but I have yet to see manufactured snap together that floats my boat. Just looks too perfect!

Won't flame as I agree. Here's why:

Most conventional wood floors are the 2 3/8" width cuttings. Compare that with an engineered product.

The conventional flooring is mainly manufactured from #2 common lumber, it's cheaper per unit of clear face cuttings. This lends itself to many smaller pieces from around defects (knots, bird pecks...). The area around defects has more twists and figure in the "grain" of the wood. So each piece is more unique looking. You also get shorter pieces from cutting the taper off the butt end of the log, they tend to yield a lot of highly figured wood, close to "fiddle back figure".

Remember that 3/4" piece of wood started out 1 1/8" thick plus the saw kerf. So each piece of lumber has at least 1 1/4" depth from it's closest pattern. So conventional flooring has many opportunities for smaller pieces of unique patterns.

The engineered products are a base surface covered in veneer. When I was manufacturing veneer we were trying to get to 1/100 of an inch in thickness(no idea what the standard is now). There was no loss to kerf as there was no saw. Veneer was sliced off on a huge razor blade 12" wide and 17' long.

The biggest thing was the logs veneer was made from. They were high priced and had few/no figure causing knots or other defects. They were the cream of the crop, perfectly straight butt logs with no visable defects of any kind. They produced perfect slices, logs after slicing were kept together in a book so the pattern could go on and on.....

There's no right or wrong, its taste specific. I used to love cutting high quality logs, you could see how identically perfect each piece was. But for flooring I love the unique patterns of each small cutting from a variety of logs. It's all good.


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[imoldernu]

I feel like the local weirdo in liking carpeting.

Wall to wall white low pile high quality carpeting throughout the house, except for Kitchen and Baths. It's now 15 years old, and looks as good as the day we bought the house. I do my own cleaning once a year, about three hours, and whatever small stains were added, are easily cleaned up.
So why carpeting? Most important... for our aging bodies, to cushion potential falls. Between carpeted floors and Prolia for DW, so far, no injuries. Most common cause of accidents for older persons.
Next... quiet, easy walking with no noise or slips.
And... since it's all wall to wall, there are no sills, so if and when necessary, easy for wheel chairs, canes, crutches etc.
Finally... it's warm. Feels warm and even when coming in to a room where the thermostat was turned down... easy to walk on. Everyone who comes in automatically takes of their shoes... not by request, 'cuz we've never asked anyone to do that... but because they like the feel of walking in their stocking feet.

About white? Not white-white, but an off white that doesn't show light dirt and stains.

So... one dissenting vote on wood.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Here is the floor in our kitchen (I cannot get it to a vertical position), almost two years old. We have a few throw rugs for form and function. We love it--for this house and for us.

 

[Sarah in SC]

Imolderu, you must not have pets!

I could go from low pile to shag in about four days with all these dogs and cats!

But you do have a good point about cushioning and warmth, and if we ever actually become pet-free, I would love to have a bedroom with carpet in it.


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[Teacher Terry]

Between 4 dogs & bad allergies carpet is a disaster. Yes with wood I wear socks in the winter. NOt having carpet really improved my allergies because all sorts of crap gets stuck in the fibers where you can't see it. You only see it when you pull up the carpet to replace it. However, if you do not have any of these issues then I can see liking carpet.

 

[Mulligan]

Between 4 dogs & bad allergies carpet is a disaster. Yes with wood I wear socks in the winter. NOt having carpet really improved my allergies because all sorts of crap gets stuck in the fibers where you can't see it. You only see it when you pull up the carpet to replace it. However, if you do not have any of these issues then I can see liking carpet.

The is conundrum I face as I my goal within the next year was to replace my carpet with hard wood flooring, as I have watched too much HGTV. I really enjoy the visual appearance of wood flooring but my actual interaction with it has been nil. I enjoy the warmth and quiet of carpet, and feel like my house is 5 degrees cooler in the rooms that have ceramic tile. Although I want wood flooring, I worry I will not like the hardness and noise factor of it. To compound the problem I have an open L downstairs stairwell that will have to have wood also and that would make the room even noisier.


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[Dash man]

The is conundrum I face as I my goal within the next year was to replace my carpet with hard wood flooring, as I have watched too much HGTV. I really enjoy the visual appearance of wood flooring but my actual interaction with it has been nil. I enjoy the warmth and quiet of carpet, and feel like my house is 5 degrees cooler in the rooms that have ceramic tile. Although I want wood flooring, I worry I will not like the hardness and noise factor of it. To compound the problem I have an open L downstairs stairwell that will have to have wood also and that would make the room even noisier.


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The only time noise bothers me with wood floors is the clicking of my dog's nails when he walks on it. I do find wood floors are much warmer than ceramic tile. I usually wear socks in the winter, but my feet do not get cold on wood floors when I walk in bare feet. They are so much easier to clean, so the downside is negligible to me. I did have to put carpet pads on the stairs so my dog wouldn't slip, and gave him a throw rug so he can lay somewhere and gave traction when he stands up. Dogs aren't fans of wood floors, but they adjust.


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[Mulligan]

The only time noise bothers me with wood floors is the clicking of my dog's nails when he walks on it. I do find wood floors are much warmer than ceramic tile. I usually wear socks in the winter, but my feet do not get cold on wood floors when I walk in bare feet. They are so much easier to clean, so the downside is negligible to me. I did have to put carpet pads on the stairs so my dog wouldn't slip, and gave him a throw rug so he can lay somewhere and gave traction when he stands up. Dogs aren't fans of wood floors, but they adjust.


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So you do not notice a "noise" or "echo" issue with wood flooring concerning conversations or tv? I never considered cleaning a negative with carpet as I do not have animals and it stays very clean do to frequent vacuuming and yearly steam cleaning. My preference for wood was more about looks than anything.


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[Dash man]

So you do not notice a "noise" or "echo" issue with wood flooring concerning conversations or tv? I never considered cleaning a negative with carpet as I do not have animals and it stays very clean do to frequent vacuuming and yearly steam cleaning. My preference for wood was more about looks than anything.


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Furniture in the room keeps it from echoing. No problem with the TV, and I have a surround sound system. Women's shoes can be a little noisy, but it's rare since DW is usually wearing slippers, socks or bare feet at home.


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[ERD50]

Same here with all my kitchen, entry way, and bathroom tiles of ten years. My previous 2 homes that I installed had no problems either. Guess I was fortunate, but one thing is sure. I almost created a nationwide shortage of screws when I installed the backerboard and also buttered the hell out of those tiles too.

...

When I tiled our 3-season room addition ( ~ 300 sq ft), I researched and did it the 'right way', and I found out many installers do not take the time. It was a lot of work, I should have bought one of those screw guns you can use standing up.

Anyhow, the 'right way' (manufacturer's instructions) is to lay down a 1/4" x 1/4" square-toothed trowel of thin-set ('mud'), then set the cement backer-board down on that, and then screw every 6 inches (IIRC) while the mud is wet - you're right, that is a LOT of screws!

After that has set, then you set the tiles in thin-set on top of the cement backer-board. Many (most?) installers skip the step of setting the backer-board in mud, they just screw it down. But that is key. Any little gap, and walking on it will push it up and down and eventually the screw-hole gets worn out and the whole thing becomes loose - tiles crack. But the mud fills gaps, and cements the whole thing down, and nothing moves.

I went the extra mile since these were 13" tiles in an unheated room, where it occasionally gets below freezing. Eight years, and not a single crack. It was worth the effort.

Our kitchen, done by the 'pros' (and not a fly-by-night group, and old established business here that does quality work), has many cracked tiles.

-ERD50

 

[Mulligan]

When I tiled our 3-season room addition ( ~ 300 sq ft), I researched and did it the 'right way', and I found out many installers do not take the time. It was a lot of work, I should have bought one of those screw guns you can use standing up.



Anyhow, the 'right way' (manufacturer's instructions) is to lay down a 1/4" x 1/4" square-toothed trowel of thin-set ('mud'), then set the cement backer-board down on that, and then screw every 6 inches (IIRC) while the mud is wet - you're right, that is a LOT of screws!



After that has set, then you set the tiles in thin-set on top of the cement backer-board. Many (most?) installers skip the step of setting the backer-board in mud, they just screw it down. But that is key. Any little gap, and walking on it will push it up and down and eventually the screw-hole gets worn out and the whole thing becomes loose - tiles crack. But the mud fills gaps, and cements the whole thing down, and nothing moves.



I went the extra mile since these were 13" tiles in an unheated room, where it occasionally gets below freezing. Eight years, and not a single crack. It was worth the effort.



Our kitchen, done by the 'pros' (and not a fly-by-night group, and old established business here that does quality work), has many cracked tiles.



-ERD50

Yes, ERD, I also did that prior to the screw down... Just like you said. Most people just said screw them in, then one guy I talked to absolutely insisted that I mud it down. I am not a real handy man and can be lazy but I listened to him because he was very insistent on that process.


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[ERD50]

Yes, ERD, I also did that prior to the screw down... Just like you said. Most people just said screw them in, then one guy I talked to absolutely insisted that I mud it down. I am not a real handy man and can be lazy but I listened to him because he was very insistent on that process.


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Good! I expect our installations will outlast us both, and maybe the next generation.

-ERD50

 

[Jerry1]

I went with wood. Pre-finished 3/4" solid hickory. It works just fine in the kitchen. I think the thing you have to understand and accept with wood is that it's a natural product and will show signs of wear. If you want a perfect look forever, you probably don't want wood. Something like tile will hold up better. I think of wood like my leather jacket. Age and wear give it character. Sure, it can get too much wear and look bad, but with general use, it wears naturally and looks good for decades. As was mentioned, it is also possible to re-finish and go a couple more decades. In the mean time, there are ways to touch up wood and even replace a board here and there is something really bad happens. Not so common any more, but my dad had to replace a few boards on his old house due to a few cigarette burns. If you like the character of wood, it's a great choice.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Wood is wonderful! Throughout our house, we installed local cabin grade heart pine, including the kitchen. The only tile is in laundry and baths. If you seal it properly, there is no need to fear it being compromised by water.

Nothing nicer underfoot, and it has worn admirably in the nearly 13 years since we built our house. Just about time for a freshen-up, which will be a light sanding and a few more coats of polyurethane. We started with seven, all applied by yours truly.

Our counters are teak and holly (like on a boat floor) with teak trim, and the cabinets are solid oak. Needless to say, we love wood.


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Agree with my buddy Sarah.

We have really enjoyed hardwood including the master bath. You do have to pay a bit more. Our favorites: ipe, kitchen: cork and bamboo. Once did black maple in a kitchen but it was too somber for my taste.

All survived the usual abuse just fine.

 

[Hermit]

I am going to use the left over pieces and cutouts of 5" boards in my new house. You can get them from a national supplier for about 1/3 the cost of the standard oak board. I helped a friend put a floor down like this last year. What you get are a lot of short pieces with knots and other imperfections that were cut out of higher grade flooring. It is also a mixture of different types of oak. There are quite a few pieces that are not usable and some that are not square or quite the same width so you have to order extra. With the lack of consistency and short pieces it takes a long time to lay the floor, but the result to me is just outstanding. The variation, swirls, and knot holes make the finished product a work of art. After the floor is laid, I will have to go back over it and fill all the knot holes using multiple colors of filler to match the differing colors surrounding the knots and other blemishes. This is definitely not a product for a professional to use, but as a retiree the time is no problem for me. The more rustic look will fit perfectly in a rustic mountain cabin look.

 

[Big_Hitter]

Anyone have any reccos for flooring? Not so much cost but quality/wear. Doing our kitchen/entry. Thanks

naildown Brazilian cherry

 

[freebird5825]

I have red oak wood floors, purchased from a local sawmill and installed by a friend by hand. Then sanded and coated 3x with gym floor quality polyurethane by another contractor who is a wood floor specialist. It is all he does.

I have area rugs in the living room and dining room (Persian rugs, 1 authentic handwoven, 1 manufactured imitation) and long strip rugs (manufactured) in the kitchen to protect the high traffic areas in front of the stove/counters and sink, and a small thick rug under the coffee pot station. No water damage issues at all.

I am religious about sweeping and/or vacuuming the bare floors free of any grit or small objects. The floor specialist told me to keep up with that, or the grit would essentially turn into an unintended grinding material that would hasten the wear on the floors.

Only soft bottomed shoes are worn inside the house. NO HEELS !!!

There is nothing like wood floors to make a home look classic.

 

[FIREd]

I have red oak wood floors, purchased from a local sawmill and installed by a friend by hand. Then sanded and coated 3x with gym floor quality polyurethane by another contractor who is a wood floor specialist. It is all he does.

I have area rugs in the living room and dining room (Persian rugs, 1 authentic handwoven, 1 manufactured imitation) and long strip rugs (manufactured) in the kitchen to protect the high traffic areas in front of the stove/counters and sink, and a small thick rug under the coffee pot station. No water damage issues at all.

I am religious about sweeping and/or vacuuming the bare floors free of any grit or small objects. The floor specialist told me to keep up with that, or the grit would essentially turn into an unintended grinding material that would hasten the wear on the floors.

Only soft bottomed shoes are worn inside the house. NO HEELS !!!

There is nothing like wood floors to make a home look classic.

I like the classy look of wood floors and Persian rugs.

In our apartment though, we have carpet everywhere except in the kitchen, foyer, and bathroom. With 2 pets and allergies, it is not the best. I do spend quite a bit of time vacuuming, destaining, and shampooing that carpet. It's a pain in the rear (although not as much as it was when we had a house with nearly 2,000 sqft of it!). Hopefully our next home will have hard wood floors - though no expensive Persian rugs as long as we have cats.

 

[Big_Hitter]

we have Brazilian cherry everywhere, including the kitchen and one bathroom


the other bathrooms have tile