$15 dollar fast food wages

[timo2]

Higher wages will follow as more will be expected from the employees that remain.

Based upon personal experience, I'm not so sure about that. In 1979 I was a mine engineer and primarily did mine surveys. I moved to another mine but came back in 1981 for a bit. When I came back technology had advanced enough that my former survey assistant was now doing the surveying. No change in pay for him, but the work was dumbed down quite a bit. All he did was plug in a cartridge with previously determined coordinates and push buttons. No additional education required, as the operator no longer needed to know mathematical principles.

 

[ziggy29]

Based upon personal experience, I'm not so sure about that. In 1979 I was a mine engineer and primarily did mine surveys. I moved to another mine but came back in 1981 for a bit. When I came back technology had advanced enough that my former survey assistant was now doing the surveying. No change in pay for him, but the work was dumbed down quite a bit. All he did was plug in a cartridge with previously determined coordinates and push buttons. No additional education required, as the operator no longer needed to know mathematical principles.

The difference between 1981 and 2014 is that in 2014 his job would have been offshored or automated out of existence entirely.

 

[HFWR]

But if we instead view each party as liberated and qualified to make decisions for their own benefit (hire, fire, quit, get another job, etc)...

In many cases this is true, but in many it's not... Particularly in low-wage, more commodity-like jobs, the employer usually has most of the leverage.

 

[M Paquette]

Don't confuse production costs with the item pricing based on supply and demand. Things can flex in interesting ways. Sizes change. Some items are reformulated over time. (What? You thought those delicious fries were pure potato?)

If retail prices do bump up, the odds are that demand will drop off less than the rise in revenue. MCD operates at a pretty low point on the price axis of the supply and demand curves, per customer transaction. Even better, MCD's franchise revenue is a percentage of the GROSS from franchisees, plus a baseline amount.

 

[retirementguy1]

I figure you pay one way or the other. Most fast food workers are on food stamps which all of us pay then profits go to shareholders. The cost of a hamburger should reflect the real cost and should not be subsidized by the govt.

 

[sengsational]

If I can get $15 an hour at a min. wage job, then I am going to want more than $15 an hour starting out after graduating from a 2 year trade school.

But that won't happen because there's no "headline story" that will propel the hundreds of different skilled $15/hr jobs. So nobody will be motivated to go to trade school or do an apprenticeship because they can make the same money flipping burgers (unskilled). Why invest in education if you can walk in and make the same money?

One thing is for certain, there will be less fast food jobs per customer in the future. Mobile apps for ordering and payment, robotic food prep, and order/pay kiosks etc all lead to less employees. Higher wages will follow as more will be expected from the employees that remain.

THIS is what will happen if McD is forced to pay above market rate for labor: even MORE automation (and fewer jobs).

 

[retirementguy1]

One thing is for certain, there will be less fast food jobs per customer in the future. Mobile apps for ordering and payment, robotic food prep, and order/pay kiosks etc all lead to less employees. Higher wages will follow as more will be expected from the employees that remain.

I work at a full service restaurant and we use an ipad for the beverage menu. Often a guest asks, "do we order off the ipad?" I joke, "No, If I let you do that I will be out of a job soon." Truth is stranger than fiction. In another 20 years my job will be a dinosaur and that's why I save all the money I can.

 

[Texas Proud]

OK, clearly people have different viewpoints (or this wouldn't be debated) but I do have trouble seeing how anyone can reasonably argue against letting supply/demand set prices (assuming there is no monopoly, and then I prefer the breakup of the monopoly over 'band-aid', micro-managed-from-afar fixes).

If the price of a menial job can be fixed at $15, then why not any other arbitrary transaction? Should the govt set the price if I want to sell my car? Maybe a poor person needs it to get to work, so it could be 'justified' that I sell it to them at below market prices. It just seems totally inconsistent to me to price fix a select transaction.

I keep hearing from some sides that anyone should be able to earn a 'living wage', even if there isn't enough demand for those skills to support those wages. So like my woodcarver example - shouldn't I be able to sell every woodcarving I make at a minimum wage rate, even if there isn't enough demand for my lousy woodcarvings, just because 'everybody should be able to make a living wage', regardless of demand?


-ERD50

I think you are missing the point.... supply and demand will work.... it is just that the gvmt is stating there is a minimum wage... so demand for people will adjust to that rate... and other wages higher than that will also adjust....

The gvmt gets into a lot of things.... they say what car companies must do in safety and fuel mileage (on avg)... you cannot build and sell cars that are not crash tested nor that do not have seat belts.... but I bet there is a demand for them out there...


BTW, you wood carving example is not the same.... but even if it is, you have a minimum price... but since nobody (or very few) wants it at the price you just will not sell that many.... too bad for you.... and the gvmt does have a right to 'set' prices... remember back when Nixon was president And state gvmts set prices for insurance, electricity etc. etc... not a new concept....

 

[samclem]

In many cases this is true, but in many it's not... Particularly in low-wage, more commodity-like jobs, the employer usually has most of the leverage.

And the minimum wage hurts worker leverage. If the minimum wage were $20 per hour, there would be fewer jobs (obviously, some jobs just aren't worth that much). There would probably be 30 people wanting each available opening. You can bet the employers wouldn't have to be very accommodating to their employees in an environment like that.

That's what I'm eager to hear: If $10 is good and $15 is better, then why not $30? Surely the workers would be enjoying a better quality of life at $30/hour. And $50 would be better yet.

 

[Walt34]

That's what I'm eager to hear: If $10 is good and $15 is better, then why not $30? Surely the workers would be enjoying a better quality of life at $30/hour. And $50 would be better yet.

And that gets to the bottom line. Some jobs just aren't worth that much because [-]no one[/-] very few will pay $15 for a hamburger for lunch every day. They'll start brown-bagging instead. The business has to be viable and make a profit or it ceases to exist.

 

[timo2]

And the minimum wage hurts worker leverage.

true to a certain extent. All labor regulations hurt worker leverage. Part of what aided the demise of labor unions is that much of the agenda they used to fight for was enacted into law by 1980. But for average workers, that's a good thing. No having to organize and take on the powers-that-be, and you get a safe, clean workplace with time for lunch. Thanks to the workers before them. If the fast food workers can accomplish something lasting for themselves, more power to them.

BTW, I no longer eat at those places, and have determined that people that do should be called 'greaseatarians'.

 

[Walt34]

BTW, I no longer eat at those places, and have determined that people that do should be called 'greaseatarians'.

I don't when alternatives are available. But when pressed for time even Mickyd's offers a halfway decent grilled chicken salad. If you skip the dressing it is still a healthy meal so that's what I get.

It's down in the lower right hand corner of the menu so you sort of have to look for it.

 

[Lancelot]

Slightly off topic but the 'Living Wage' debate misses the point.

Many fast food jobs are entry level; an applicant gains employment, learns about work ethics, gains experience, then moves on to a better job.

As other posters have said, in really tight labor markets fast food restaurants are already paying $15 an hour. When the economy is booming the market will dictate higher wages no matter what the minimum wage is...

 

[Hamlet]

The problem is that there aren't a ton of better jobs being created. Many of the jobs that used to be middle class jobs have been replaced by $10/hr or less jobs. Our economy has been really good at making $10/hr or less jobs or $40/hr or more jobs. The middle ground has been shrinking for 30 years.

We haven't had a really tight job market for people without a college degree in an awfully long time.

Fast food is no longer just serving as an entry level employer. For millions of people, that is all that is available.

Slightly off topic but the 'Living Wage' debate misses the point.

Many fast food jobs are entry level; an applicant gains employment, learns about work ethics, gains experience, then moves on to a better job.

As other posters have said, in really tight labor markets fast food restaurants are already paying $15 an hour. When the economy is booming the market will dictate higher wages no matter what the minimum wage is...

 

[athena53]

Fast food is no longer just serving as an entry level employer. For millions of people, that is all that is available.

Yeah, I think that's a big problem. Manufacturing and the trades dried up, high schools got fixated on getting 99 4/100ths % of their graduates into secondary education, vocational ed programs such as Auto Repair and Welding went out the window. So now you've got people with degrees in Phys. Ed or Musical Theatre (or, worse, some college but no degree) and student loans and all they can get is McDonald's or Starbucks.

 

[Looking4Ward]

Yeah, I think that's a big problem. Manufacturing and the trades dried up, high schools got fixated on getting 99 4/100ths % of their graduates into secondary education, vocational ed programs such as Auto Repair and Welding went out the window. So now you've got people with degrees in Phys. Ed or Musical Theatre (or, worse, some college but no degree) and student loans and all they can get is McDonald's or Starbucks.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

 

[ziggy29]

We live in the Eagle Ford oil and gas play in south central Texas. The unemployment rate here is less than 4% (translation: just about anyone who wants a job and is willing and able to work *has* a job). The town's one restaurant keeps cutting back hours, not because business is bad (it's almost always packed) but because they are having trouble keeping fully staffed. Local fast food joints in nearby towns are advertising starting wages anywhere from $9.50 to $11 per hour. And yet the prices here at those joints are no higher than they are in other areas of the state where the starting pay is closer to the minimum wage of $7.25.

Now $10 is a far cry from $15, but so far we're not really seeing higher prices for too much here in a tight labor market (with one exception: construction projects; demand for tradespeople far exceeds the supply). For years I've been saying we do youth a disservice by pushing them to college when their desires and aptitudes may be more suited for the trades, and right now, if you're eager and willing to relocate you can do VERY well in the trades here right now.

 

[gcgang]

It's not fair that some people make more than others. Everyone should be equal. Comrades, unite!


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

 

[growing_older]

I must have very low brow tastes as I much prefer fast food to the caviar in another thread. But I don't enjoy taking my chances with employees who cannot make change, cannot answer questions about their products, have difficulty working their cash registers or getting my order right. Then there's a kind of blind hope that people in the back who maybe are even less capable than the ones they let be in contact with the public will actually make the food correctly, properly cook burgers until done, generally use sanitary practices and not serve me food they dropped on the floor. Usually it works out to at least meet my low standards and I pretend the people do the right thing, despite my low confidence in them.

But if wages in fast food places double, perhaps a better quality of employee will want to work there. Or perhaps that will be the next push or more automation. I already know I can work an order kiosk better than most fast food cashiers can work their cash registers. I'd be very happy to see if an automated kitchen can also produce more reliable product than the minimum wage teenage kitchen does. It seems likely to be a significant improvement in product quality. I'm all in favor of this change whichever direction it goes.

 

[growing_older]

But when pressed for time even Mickyd's offers a halfway decent grilled chicken salad.

Yuck. Apparently tastes vary, as to my taste this is one of their worst products. The salad is a fine, probably some bagged mix they get in bulk, but the grilled chicken doesn't seem to be grilled, it's simmered in some kind of broth and either has grill lines painted on or it's grilled momentarily after it's already cooked. I always assumed they put this on their menu so they could claim to have a healthier option, so it didn't have to actually be prepared to taste good, and perhaps they don't actually want it to be too appealing to keep demand for other options high. Preparing an actual grilled chicken breast is really really easy, so there must be a reason they cook them this strange way instead.

 

[meierlde]

I must have very low brow tastes as I much prefer fast food to the caviar in another thread. But I don't enjoy taking my chances with employees who cannot make change, cannot answer questions about their products, have difficulty working their cash registers or getting my order right. Then there's a kind of blind hope that people in the back who maybe are even less capable than the ones they let be in contact with the public will actually make the food correctly, properly cook burgers until done, generally use sanitary practices and not serve me food they dropped on the floor. Usually it works out to at least meet my low standards and I pretend the people do the right thing, despite my low confidence in them.

But if wages in fast food places double, perhaps a better quality of employee will want to work there. Or perhaps that will be the next push or more automation. I already know I can work an order kiosk better than most fast food cashiers can work their cash registers. I'd be very happy to see if an automated kitchen can also produce more reliable product than the minimum wage teenage kitchen does. It seems likely to be a significant improvement in product quality. I'm all in favor of this change whichever direction it goes.

Actually you see over time a deskilling of the order taking position. I recall in the mid 1970s fast food joints did not have the computers to do orders, but rather the order was taken by paper and pencil. Then the order taker came up with a version of the total which might or might no be right. It was interesting to do the total yourself. I would not call them for a few cents to little, but would for to much or over about .30 under. On the making change issue teaching folks to make change the old fashioned way would work, i.e. count it out to the customer, would still work.

 

[aja8888]

Yuck. Apparently tastes vary, as to my taste this is one of their worst products. The salad is a fine, probably some bagged mix they get in bulk, but the grilled chicken doesn't seem to be grilled, it's simmered in some kind of broth and either has grill lines painted on or it's grilled momentarily after it's already cooked. I always assumed they put this on their menu so they could claim to have a healthier option, so it didn't have to actually be prepared to taste good, and perhaps they don't actually want it to be too appealing to keep demand for other options high. Preparing an actual grilled chicken breast is really really easy, so there must be a reason they cook them this strange way instead.

I've done some projects at the wholesale distribution warehouses for fast foods (Yum Brands, for one). I'd hate to tell you what comes in pre-cooked from vendors and either kept refrigerated or frozen. I have to believe, after having several of those salads, that the grilled chicken part is not grilled on location.

 

[Rustic23]

OK, this is not suppose to be political, but it really is. We have had a minimum wage for a very long time. It has not reduced poverty. It has never been a living wage, what ever that is. I am sure it is different from me, you, Donald Trump or a family living on $30 k a year. Also, who says one person is suppose to earn a 'family living wage'. I know of very few families where both adults don't work.

Politicians know that most of the electorate could care less about the economics of 'minimum wage'. Like Corporate Tax, they know it is popular, or unpopular with their party, and it fills their coffers. Labor Unions are in full support because their contracts are tied to it.

Minimum wage increase will only increase price with relationship to the percentage labor is to the total cost of doing business. If the increase is small, business will work around it. Fewer full time employees, reduce benefits, reduce hours worked, bring in automation, take a little lower return on investment and so on. But in the end, business must have an ROE for the risk involved or money will seek it's return.

 

[MRG]

I've done some projects at the wholesale distribution warehouses for fast foods (Yum Brands, for one). I'd hate to tell you what comes in pre-cooked from vendors and either kept refrigerated or frozen. I have to believe, after having several of those salads, that the grilled chicken part is not grilled on location.

Friend of mine grew up working in fast food places, his DF owned a few franchises. He said after getting out of working there it took him years to ever try to eat fast food again. He'll avoid it whenever possible, on the occasions I've seem him eat some, there are certain foods he still refuses to eat based on how he saw it handled.

I don't think the fast food or frozen chicken products are real chicken anyways.

 

[WhoDaresWins]

Many years ago, a friend of my son's who worked during his high school years for a national fast food outlet, advised him to always order the popular, mainstream items on the menu if he wanted freshness.