A woman's life in Saudi Arabia

[audreyh1]

My 'autocorrection' usually kicks in the moment I hit 'send' ........and consists of me saying "Aw, ****".

Well, the iPad seems to work the same way!

 

[travelover]

I've heard that women are treated pretty poorly in Afghanistan. Maybe we should go straighten their backward a$$e$ out.

Oh....never mind.

 

[HFWR]

Agreed, but most are not a matter of law. If you don't like a "practice" in this country (USA), you can, for the most part, avoid it and those who adhere to it. In some areas, you might even be shunned for such avoidance, but the law will not come knocking at your door nor will you be lynched. And, if you choose to move to another location to get away from certain cultural practices, you will not be required to explain your actions (unless you want to). YMMV of course.

I guess that was the point. Many of these "cultural practices" have been codified into law in Islamic countries...

With all due respect I disagree. There are "cultural" practices that are plain wrong universally and should be condemned as such (i.e. excision).

+1

No, I think that's what the Declaration of Independence was trying to say, that there were inalienable rights not conferred by tradition, a ruling monarch, religion, etc.

Not entirely accurate. Jefferson said we were endowed by our creator. Unfortunately, the creator didn't tell everyone else...

It's appropriate, on the day of Larry Hagman's passing, to quote one Jock Ewing, answering a whine from Bobby about not being "given" the power to run Ewing Oil the way he saw fit: "Nobody gives you power; real power is something you TAKE"...

Blame my iPad autocorrection which I didn't catch in time.

I eventually turned off autocorrection on my iPhone, though it did make for some humorous moments...

 

[BTravlin]

It's truly awful to see women still treated as property in many parts of the world. And I believe the only way we will win the war against radical Islamist terrorism is when the Muslim women find a way to rise up and assert some control over their men. Western women are already working to help improve their lot and serve as role models for what modern women are all about and what they are capable of achieving.

 

[Midpack]

I agree that treating women as second class citizens in any way is wrong, I can't imagine living in a society like the one described in the OP link. Having said that, it's interesting how some of the replies (thankfully not all) are pretty high and mighty given the USA allowed slavery for many generations and indeed treated women as second class citizens for even longer. Many would argue women and minorities still haven't "arrived," even if there's been more progress in the USA.

Again, not defending the article, but a little humility since the USA hasn't been enlightened all along either despite the words in the Deceleration of Independence...

 

[haha]

With all due respect I disagree. There are "cultural" practices that are plain wrong universally and should be condemned as such (i.e. excision).

Even excision of malignant tumors?

I guess you do not do surgery?

Ha

 

[audreyh1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audreyh1
No, I think that's what the Declaration of Independence was trying to say, that there were inalienable rights not conferred by tradition, a ruling monarch, religion, etc.

Not entirely accurate. Jefferson said we were endowed by our creator. Unfortunately, the creator didn't tell everyone else...

I don't understand the contradiction. Are you saying by naming the creator as the bestower of inalienable rights on all human beings, they are conferred by religion? I don't think so - religion and "the creator" are not one and the same.

 

[haha]

It's truly awful to see women still treated as property in many parts of the world. And I believe the only way we will win the war against radical Islamist terrorism is when the Muslim women find a way to rise up and assert some control over their men. Western women are already working to help improve their lot and serve as role models for what modern women are all about and what they are capable of achieving.

Of course the Muslim word is well aware of western women, and modern western society. But they feel like Midwesterners feel about NYC-OK for a visit but wouldn't want to live there.

Also, before we feel so fantastically superior, we should remember that unlike Western Europe and white America, Muslim societies still manage to give birth to enough babies to replace their populations. Muslim culture has been growing and surviving for almost 1500 years. Please page me when the US reaches this milestone.

Ha

 

[obgyn65]

I don't want to be too explicit about this practice, as I am sure you know which type of excision I am talking about.

Even excision of malignant tumors?

I guess you do not do surgery?

Ha

 

[samclem]

The good news:
- Any culture that, in effect, "throws away" the talents and work of 1/2 of its population is not going to compete well in the global economic struggle.
- Societies that subjugate rational thought and the scientific method to superstition will similarly not be very successful in a relative sense.
- Information and knowledge about how people in other places live is increasingly ubiquitous. 50 years ago many people behind the Iron Curtain were truly in the dark about real living standards and daily life in Western Europe, the US and Canada. Today, the public in all but the most repressive countries knows much of the truth. The Internet has made a big difference in this respect--it's tough to maintain an information embargo today.

These factors will tend to localize backwardness to increasingly isolated spots on the globe. It's very unfortunate for those who live there, but it's
useful to remember that oppression and privation have been the normal state of humanity since we've been keeping records. We should try to improve things in the "dark zones", but facilitating change is going to work better than trying to impose it.

The bad news:
-- Democracy by itself will not lead to an improvement in the situation in many of these countries. Obviously (look around), democracy without respect for individual liberty is just mob rule. Democracy can make things worse.
-- Asymmetric means of national conflict (terrorism, cyber-attacks, and soon to include nuclear capabilities) will allow even backward*, oppressive hellholes to challenge the interests of enlightened, developed countries. In the "old days" their lack of functioning economies would have made them irrelevant on the international stage since they couldn't field mass armies and couldn't build (or buy) cutting edge military technology. Effective means of international (and non-state) conflict have been made available even to have-not countries (Yippee!), somewhat reducing the value of the first two "good news" bullets above. (*And yes, there are "backward" countries.).

 

[Chuckanut]

The good news:
- Any culture that, in effect, "throws away" the talents and work of 1/2 of its population is not going to compete well in the global economic struggle.

+1

 

[Letj]

It's interesting reading this thread after researching the meaning of "asking for a woman's hand/manus in marriage" which really meant asking for her legal custody and property to be transferred from her father to her husband. All adult children in Ancient Rome were under the total legal authority of their father including control over their life or death. A man did not become emancipated (have full legal rights) until his father died. There was no concept of individual rights, everything was based on family rights.

I didn't need to read the article. If women are considered chattel/property owned by their father or husband, pretty much anything goes in terms of controlling them.

The Western world has since become enlightened, thanks to education and technological advancement. Many other parts of the world where cultures are not open to change, the same cannot be said.

 

[haha]

I don't want to be too explicit about this practice, as I am sure you know which type of excision I am talking about.

Excise is a transitive verb. Excision therefore requires some reference-excision of...something.

As to your being sure that I know what you are talking about, how do you achieve this knowledge?

I received a PM telling me that you were probably talking about clitoral excision. I have heard of this, but know essentialy nothing of it. Please give some data on how widely practiced this is, and in which societies. Are there many complications? Is it done in hospitals, etc.?

I imagine that many of our ideas about Muslim culture are like many of our other ideas, just blowing in the wind and not based on disinterested observations.

I do know that male genital mutilation is very widely practiced in our supposedly advanced western societies. It is generally known as circumcision.

Ha

 

[HFWR]

I don't understand the contradiction. Are you saying by naming the creator as the bestower of inalienable rights on all human beings, they are conferred by religion? I don't think so - religion and "the creator" are not one and the same.

I suppose what I am saying is we have rights because we demand them, and are willing to fight, if necessary, to preserve them. Anything "given" can be taken away, and a great many people don't care what the creator allegedly said or conferred...

 

[audreyh1]

I suppose what I am saying is we have rights because we demand them, and are willing to fight, if necessary, to preserve them. Anything "given" can be taken away, and a great many people don't care what the creator allegedly said or conferred...

I'm don't know at that has to do with it. The point of inalienable rights was that they were conferred on each human equally not won by "might" as had traditionally been true in Europe. So being willing to fight to preserve them seems beside the point.

 

[obgyn65]

I apologize for not being clear enough then. I did not want to highjack this thread or take the risk of hurting the feelings of some readers here by being more explicit. Yes, I was referring to clitoridectomy for cultural beliefs, and which I do NOT equate with male circumcision. Please note I have not mentioned anything about Muslims or Islam. The WHO or the UN have some data about this practice worldwide. I will not post again on this topic.

Excise is a transitive verb. Excision therefore requires some reference-excision of...something.

As to your being sure that I know what you are talking about, how do you achieve this knowledge?

And if you are talking about clitoral excision, please give data on how widely practiced this is, and in which societies. It is not a topic that has captured my attention, so I may need to be brought up to date.

I imagine that many of our ideas about Muslim culture are like many of our other ideas, just blowing in the wind and not based on disinterested observations.

I do know that male genital mutilation is very widely practiced in our supposedly advanced western societies. In case you are unaware, it is called circumcision.

Ha

 

[HFWR]

And Jefferson would disagree with you. The point of inalienable rights was that they were not won by "might" as had traditionally been true in Europe.

True, but if bad people want to take away your "rights', they won't likely be swayed by either Jefferson, or the "creator"...

I wish he would have worded that differently, because it gives lots of folks ammunition to claim we are a "religious" nation, a term I find unfortunate. Jefferson, as did many of the "Founding Fathers", took his philosophy from the "Age of Enlightenment", which was almost the antithesis of religion.

 

[frayne]

I agree that treating women as second class citizens in any way is wrong, I can't imagine living in a society like the one described in the OP link. Having said that, it's interesting how some of the replies (thankfully not all) are pretty high and mighty given the USA allowed slavery for many generations and indeed treated women as second class citizens for even longer. Many would argue women and minorities still haven't "arrived," even if there's been more progress in the USA.

Again, not defending the article, but a little humility since the USA hasn't been enlightened all along either despite the words in the Deceleration of Independence...

Excellent and true obsevation. Unfortunately we are not as evolved as we would like to think. The USA for all her good things and the good far out number the bad, still has some warts.

 

[Nemo2]

I received a PM telling me that you were probably talking about clitoral excision. I have heard of this, but know essentialy nothing of it. Please give some data on how widely practiced this is, and in which societies. Are there many complications? Is it done in hospitals, etc.?

I imagine that many of our ideas about Muslim culture are like many of our other ideas, just blowing in the wind and not based on disinterested observations.

I do know that male genital mutilation is very widely practiced in our supposedly advanced western societies. It is generally known as circumcision.

Ha

allAfrica.com: Africa: Reversing Female Circumcision on the Continent

Female circumcision - otherwise known as female genital mutilation or cutting (FGM/C) - is defined by the World Health Organization as "all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia. It also involves any other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons."

FGM/C is a millennia-long custom that practicing communities believe is an essential part of raising a girl properly. About 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM/C, according to the World Health Organization. Some 92 million girls 10 years old and above who have undergone the practice are in Africa, the agency adds.

The practice has several immediate and long-term health consequences, says Marci Bowers, a gynaecologist in San Mateo, California. Many women like Tonte suffer for years after being circumcised because of scarring and frequent infections. The pain is constant, says Tonte. She is 35 years old and is still single, she says, because she cannot bear to have anyone touch her "down there." Not even a doctor.

Although there is renewed hope for a global ban on the practice, so far there has been little focus on solutions for the many girls and women who have already undergone cutting. The possibility of reconstructive surgery is therefore a godsend to young women like Tonte. "They took away part of my womanhood," she says. "I just feel very deprived. I want to be whole again."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...the-name-of-islam/story-e6frg6so-111111293319

By Ayaan Hirsi Ali

In Somalia, like many countries across Africa and the Middle East, little girls are made "pure" by having their genitals cut out. There is no other way to describe this procedure, which typically occurs around the age of five.

After the child's clitoris and labia are carved out, scraped off, or, in more compassionate areas, merely cut or pricked, the whole area is often sewn up, so that a thick band of tissue forms a chastity belt made of the girl's own scarred flesh. A small hole is situated to permit a thin flow of pee. Only great force can tear the scar tissue wider, for sex.

Female genital mutilation predates Islam. Not all Muslims do this, and a few of the peoples who do are not Islamic. But in Somalia, where virtually every girl is excised, the practice is always justified in the name of Islam. Uncircumcised girls will be possessed by devils, fall into vice and perdition, and become whores. Imams never discourage the practice: it keeps girls pure.

Many girls die during or after their excision, from infection. Other complications cause enormous, more or less lifelong pain.

 

[haha]

allAfrica.com: Africa: Reversing Female Circumcision on the Continent





http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...the-name-of-islam/story-e6frg6so-111111293319

By Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Thanks for the info. It sounds horrible.

Ha

 

[Nemo2]

Thanks for the info. It sounds horrible.

Yes, and I've heard/read of young girls being dragged screaming, (by their families, no less), and having this done to them outside, on the ground, around a campfire at night..........barbaric is hardly the word for it.

 

[imoldernu]

The DirecTv Television Station LINKTV offers literally dozens of programs, discussing the relative freedom of women throughout the world. There is one particular series that I usually watch, and that is Bridge to Iran. Not sure how many parts to the series, but there are many one hour programs. While the Iran segment on womans freedom does not necessarily reflect the same situation as Saudi Arabia,
I am certain that there are many parallels. This program (as all others) is available to watch online. Bridge to Iran: We Are Half of Iran's Population | Link TV It's a one hour subtitled program that presents dozens of very different women speaking directly to Ahmadinijead about the inequalities that women face.

I found the program riveting, and had to watch it all the way through. One hour. The part that surprised me the most, was insight to the inside of Iran... which was not unlike any cities in the United States. Buildings, homes, highways, schools, government buildings, and glimpses into daily life... that, except for the language, could have easily been a city in the US.

The thrust of this program was the inequalities facing women in education, work, legal rights and especially in the professional fields of medicine and law.
It appears that the Middle East Nations signed on to an equal rights for women agreement several years ago. The women were speaking, on camera to the President, asking for implementation.

From what I gathered there is a dichotomy between laws on the books, and implementation by the congress and by the legal system. Judgements for most appeals for divorce, equal education, and representation in the workplace, appear to be almost always in favor of men, which eventually results in the kind of abuses cited in this thread.

I came away with a wholly different opinion of the level of sophistication of the Middle East.

For further interest, this is a link to the hundreds of documentaries (including the sub section 'women/gender/sexuality'). Most of which are available online, on demand. The subjects are further divided by country.

Browse Programs | Link TV

And one more video, from Denmark. A documentary that directly discusses the position of women in Saudi Arabia, with a look inside the life and work of a middle class Saudi woman. It is presented to show the attempt to reverse the inequality. (streaming... takes a short time to start.)
BTW... middle class in Saudi Arabia, is not 'poor'.

My overall take on the subject, is that the problems are severe, but that is is not a situation that approaches what we recall as slavery from our history, but rather a culture in the midst of change.... change that is accelerating.

 

[PatSea]

This thread reminds me of my first of several business trips to Saudia Arabia in the late 80's. My business partner and I were flying Saudia Airline from Copenhagen to Riyadh Saudia Arabia. The plane was loaded with mainly Arabs, and almost all of the women were dressed in very modern, chic, expensive western clothing with lots of jewelry. It suddenly dawned on me when we were about 30 minutes from landing in Riyadh that all the women were now wearing burqas. Not sure the significance of this but they didn't want to run afoul of the religious police or their husbands.

 

[Original Wally]

No, I think that's what the Declaration of Independence was trying to say, that there were inalienable rights not conferred by tradition, a ruling monarch, religion, etc.

BUT only if the culture buys INTO that notion.
Remember, at the time of the Declaration, we still believed as a society that black folks could be property and women we only a step away from that status. "Rights" seem to depend on who is in charge.

Not everyone agrees. Which is the entire issue about cultural diversity.

If WE have the right to topple govt's that do NOT share "our" values, do those other govt's / societies also have the right to topple or overthrow OUR society?

 

[haha]

Cultures do not decide if they have the right to do something. They just decide whether they have the might to do it. The right can always be cooked up when needed. This has worked for the US for a long time.

Ha