Advice on Buying Electric Car

[Chuckanut]

My understanding was that the Prius did especially well in town, where you get energy from regenerative braking, and not using energy when waiting at stoplights.

If you're driving at a constant 65 MPH on a flat freeway, OTOH, your Prius is no different than a car with a gas engine.

FWIW, my hybrid (which is not a Prius) gets about 38 mpg overall, but well over 40 on the highway. The best mileage is short stop-and-go driving where the battery mostly discharges over several miles of driving, then I get 50+ mpg. But, this is only for a short time, then the engine must start to charge the battery so mileage goes back down.

So despite the claims, I find that 100 miles of highway driving will give me better mileage than 100 miles for normal city driving.

Keep in mind that because the electric motor is so great at moving the vehicle at lower speeds, the gasoline engine has been 'adjusted' to be even more efficient at high speed highway driving. This is called the Atkinson Cycle. See Below:

Using an electric motor to assist the petrol engine addressed the shortfall of power characteristic of the Atkinson cycle, but also provided an independent source of motivation in order that the engine could be shut off when possible. After all, the most effective method of fuel-saving is not to have the engine running in the first place!

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-use-atkinson-cycle-engines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle

 

[explanade]

Aren't a lot of the EVs due for new generations with extended range?

I heard that the Volt and Leaf will both get extended range in new models.

Model 3 and Bolt will force others to step up their game.

Volt and Bolt sound good on paper but they're Chevy's. If they were made by Honda or Toyota, I'd have more confidence about build quality and reliability.

 

[GTFan]

I'd go with a Chevy Volt. Best of both worlds IMHO. IIRC, the early Leafs had issues with battery longevity in hot climates like here in Arizona.

Second that and they're dirt cheap here too, I've seen 2013's off-lease go for less than $13-14k with 30-40k miles. Way better than a used Leaf IMO.

 

[Hermit]

There is a reason why cars like Nissan Leaf's and other pure electrics are on the used market with very few miles. Research that, then buy a used Volt.

Luxury cars suffer the same issue. I bought my 6 year old Audi for $5000 less than a 6 year old Subaru Baha I was also interested in. The Audi sold new for twice the Subaru and had half the miles.

 

[EastWest Gal]

Well, my thinking may be outdated, because it's been years since I considered this.

My understanding was that the Prius did especially well in town, where you get energy from regenerative braking, and not using energy when waiting at stoplights.

If you're driving at a constant 65 MPH on a flat freeway, OTOH, your Prius is no different than a car with a gas engine.

Feel free to update my thinking.

Outside of the Central Valley there are few flat freeways in California. Our freeways in the east are somewhat flat in a few places. I'm a Prius owner since 2009. We use the Prius for long trips precisely due to the great gas mileage in all circumstances. 45.7 mpg, city or highway. The gas engine shuts off every time you go down a hill and the wheels recharge the battery.

We just took a road trip to Atlanta from PA, about 1500 miles round trip. We went 70 mph or a little over for much of the rural highway driving. Overall gas mileage actually improved a bit according to the car's computer. We have 116K miles on the car.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

 

[TromboneAl]

Just got back from a ride in my neighbor's Tesla Model X.

Holy moly! More like a spaceship than a car. He demonstrated the autonomous driving mode which worked even on a small country road.

It really pushes you back into the seat when it accelerates. Range of 250 miles.

I wasn't at all tempted, though, to spend the $107,000.00 that my neighbor spent for his. It wasn't super quiet on the highway.

Everything is electric, from opening the doors to adjusting the seats. I see that, in part, as just more things that can break.

Fun experience, though.

 

[TromboneAl]

Our Echo got 39 MPG, and 44 MPG on trips. Sniff sniff.

Actually, I'll be glad to be getting a somewhat larger, better-in-an-accident car.

 

[swakyaby]

So I'm curious what your current thinking is on new or used EV cars. Are there any that you are seriously considering? Lease vs purchase?

My thoughts on the Leaf is that Nissan fully supports the car, and has done a lot to promote the EV car popularity. It's not simply a compliance car. But the battery range is such a limitation; when running air conditioning or a heater, the range decreases significantly.

I do own an electric car. And you're right about the simplicity of a pure EV and not having a hybrid like the Prius or a plug-in hybrid like the Volt. In the 1 1/2 years I've owned the car, it has required no maintenance.

DH has been pushing to have us as a 2-EV household. But I still like my 13-year-old ICE vehicle, a Lexus sport coupe, and am reluctant to let it go.

 

[ulrichw]

We leased a VW eGolf last November and have been really happy with it.

35 miles round-trip would not be a problem - if you're willing to drive a moderate speed, you should be able to significantly exceed the EPA rated range. For reference, we're generally on pace to do 90-100 miles vs. the EPA rated 83 miles.

I've always paid cash for cars prior to this one, but we decided to lease this time. Here's my rationale:
- The current generation of short-range eCars (not Tesla) are going to be obsolete very quickly - even the 30kWh (around 100 mile range) cars are a stopgap.
- At the time there were some *insane* lease deals going on. Even though the Federal $7500 incentive in theory doesn't apply to leased cars, the financing companies (who receive the incentive since they're the official "purchasers") have been applying the incentive toward the lease on behalf of the consumer. As an example, our deal is a 36-month lease with $1200 down and $143 a month - *before* the $2500 California incentive (which does apply to leases, as long as they're at least 30 months in duration). I don't think the deals are quite as good anymore, but if you keep your eye out, there are still some bargains out there.

Our lease will be up right around the time the Tesla Model 3 is out. I think around that time (2018-2019) some of the other manufacturers may be gearing up with their "usable" mid-range priced cars.

I would avoid used e-Cars for now - the battery loses range over time, and given the already limited range of the current generation, that would be a deal-breaker for me.

In terms of overall experience, the eGolf has been great. I wasn't expecting it to be as fun to drive as it is (and I'm a driving enthusiast - I've done a number of track days). Even though it's only rated at 110 hp, at slower speeds the car really performs well. Electric cars have instantaneous torque at any speed, where ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) cars need to be at the right engine speed to make their peak torque/power.

One interesting "adjustment" in thinking to make is that you will generally keep the car fully charged since you'll be charging at night or at home. This means that the occasions that range will come up as an issue should be rare.

The current generation of eCars is definitely a compromise - and it's almost necessary to have a second car for longer trips. But we've been extremely happy with ours (though we do live in the Bay Area, so driving distances are shorter and speeds are slower - both of which work in favor of the electric cars).

 

[GravitySucks]

I think the technology is changing too quick to consider a new electric. ( That and I doubt they'll ever be a good car in this climate, heating must use a lot of battery power. ) A used Leaf or Volt where you live might be a good second car though.

 

[nash031]

Well, my thinking may be outdated, because it's been years since I considered this.

My understanding was that the Prius did especially well in town, where you get energy from regenerative braking, and not using energy when waiting at stoplights.

If you're driving at a constant 65 MPH on a flat freeway, OTOH, your Prius is no different than a car with a gas engine.

Feel free to update my thinking.

Being a minimalist, I like the idea of getting rid of all the extra stuff that's needed with a gasoline engine.

Well, my actual experience with a Prius was a rented crappy little Prius C from 2014 that I drove about 1000 miles and averaged better than 45.

According to all the reviews I've read, the 2016s are averaging well over 50 combined, up to as high as 65 on one review I read. Rated 55 city/50 highway. And it's not the same as gas, as the older Prius we rented was clearly running electric for a good portion of the time on the highway when I wasn't trying to drive 80 (and still getting better than 40 mpg).

To me, the electric car technology is evolving so fast as to make investing in it now a non-starter unless you're going Tesla. (I love Tesla). I am hoping that in four years or so when it's my turn to buy a new car that electric cars will have increased range significantly with reduced charging times, as well as increased availability of charging.

If I were in your shoes (and I kind of am, though we're not buying electric, just buying a new car), I would definitely give the new Prius a long hard look. I think it's a higher quality vehicle - all things considered - than most of the electrics. YMMV (HA!).

 

[Dave J]

Al,
I own a 2012 Camry Hybrid. Over 35000 miles average 41.5mpg. Hyway trips from 39 to 42.
I also own a 2014 Prius. Average 52.5 in 20000 miles. Highway 49 to 53, prob. 51 at 65mpg.
The beauty of Hybrids is the traffic and situations that kill mileage on regular cars raise them. Stop and go, bumper to bumper ect.
All that being said, I bought when gas was 3.75 to 4.00. I'd have to take a fresh look at 2.00 gas if buying new. Both have been 100% reliable so far.

 

[pb4uski]

I agree with others. Given you live 35 miles from Eureka a Leaf would give me range anxiety so since you aren't willing to ante up for a Tesla I would look to the hybrids... and perhaps a lightly used hybrid. A couple of our friends have Prius and love them and a new Prius is less than the leaf. Or alternatively, another econo-box like the Echo, particularly if it is your second car... they are cheap to buy and run and with today's design and air bag technology they are very safe.

 

[ERD50]

Well, my thinking may be outdated, because it's been years since I considered this.

My understanding was that the Prius did especially well in town, where you get energy from regenerative braking, and not using energy when waiting at stoplights.

If you're driving at a constant 65 MPH on a flat freeway, OTOH, your Prius is no different than a car with a gas engine.

Feel free to update my thinking. ...

It's not outdated thinking, but it is a little 'off'.

You are correct about braking regen in city. But since the electric motor/battery provides a boost for acceleration, the gas engine can be smaller, and better tuned for efficient running at highway speed. I think someone mentioned the Prius engine uses a 'modified Atkinson Cycle', an overly-fancy term (IMO) for a valve timing sequence that optimizes efficiency, at the expense of low end torque. But the electric motor/battery make up the difference. That same engine in a non-hybrid would be a slug when the light turns green, unacceptably slow - it would not be put on the market.

Bottom line, yes, a Prius is different at highway speeds. Even though the electric motor/battery are not directly being used at that time, the overall design provides benefits at highway speeds. A benefit that could not exist w/o the electric motor/battery.

-ERD50

 

[Dave J]

Bottom line, yes, a Prius is different at highway speeds. Even though the electric motor/battery are not directly being used at that time, the overall design provides benefits at highway speeds. A benefit that could not exist w/o the electric motor/battery.

-ERD50

To add to this, on hybrids, the electric motor assists in some highway driving. Going up hills, it kicks in to assist the gas engine. On flat roads or very slight downgrades, the gas will shut off(engine still turning) and the electric will keep speed up. And the engine charges the battery when coasting and/or going downhill. I'm kind of a mileage nerd and run a scan gauge in my cars to see what is happening . The hybrid battery fully charges on the highway in about 4 or 5 miles, while getting 48-50 mpg, then giving you battery to use when you get off highway or in stop and go traffic.

 

[Midpack]

Well, my thinking may be outdated, because it's been years since I considered this.

My understanding was that the Prius did especially well in town, where you get energy from regenerative braking, and not using energy when waiting at stoplights.

If you're driving at a constant 65 MPH on a flat freeway, OTOH, your Prius is no different than a car with a gas engine.

Feel free to update my thinking.

Being a minimalist, I like the idea of getting rid of all the extra stuff that's needed with a gasoline engine.

I won't try to talk you in/out of anything, and you're right the Prius gets higher mpg city than highway. BUT The EPA estimate, FWIW is 58/53 city/highway - and that's not far from my experience after 40,000 miles. I have a 2012 Prius and I average about 55 mpg summer and about 45 winter - I drive both city and highway miles, a little more highway overall. IIRC you're in a (much) warmer climate than I am, so you should easily average about 50 mpg highway with a Prius. I know of few if any ICE cars that will average 50 mpg, there is a significant difference IME.

DW wanted an EV, but between purchase price, range anxiety/long charge times (without expensive fast charge equipment), and total emissions (depending on your power plant fuels) that are much higher than many people realize - the technology isn't there yet for us. YMMV

 

[explanade]

BMW just announced that all new i3s will have 50% bigger batteries.

Existing models got 70-80 miles AER, depending on how you drove and whether you had a range extender.

But they're not citing total range yet.

Existing model is about 2900 pounds. Bigger batteries may add to the weight but it's still light.

 

[HFWR]

N=1, but I consistently get ~ 50mpg in my 2011 Prius, city or highway.

 

[FUEGO]

T Al,

What are you going to do about the range limits? No more road trips? Rent a longer range vehicle? I think I would find 100-200 miles very limiting. The tesla superchargers might be okay (30 minutes to recharge if you're traveling along the supercharger routes).

I'd like to get an electric one day but find that most of our annual mileage is long range road trips instead of local city driving (though a typical trip here in the city is 1-5 miles).

 

[TromboneAl]

T Al,

What are you going to do about the range limits? No more road trips? Rent a longer range vehicle?

We would drive our Toyota Tacoma on long trips. MPG is only around 20, but it is actually good for long trips.

 

[TromboneAl]

Thanks for the great advice.

We had this revelation last night (actually, Lena thought of it):

Maybe we don't need two cars.

It's rare that we both need a car at the same time. I hardly ever gig anymore. The only time it would be a problem is in the case of an accident or a "I locked the keys in the car" event.

In any case, we can take our time in deciding on a car to replace the Echo.

 

[REWahoo]

We would drive our Toyota Tacoma on long trips. MPG is only around 20, but it is actually good for long trips.

Forgot you had a second car, Al. That changes everything - get the Leaf or even one of these:

 

[Hermit]

DD is still driving the late DW's 2005 Prius. 160,000+ miles. No major problems. She loves it. Its amazing how [-]much junk[/-] many necessary items she can get in it!

 

[nash031]

I'll add one more note about the new Prii... since we're shopping for them too:

The 2016s (not the wagons or the C) have a lower aerodynamic drag coefficient than prior models which also helps boost their range to the 55/50 estimates (though as I said, some reviewers have stated up to 65(!) mpg combined... but that's probably like getting out and push-starting every stop light...

 

[pb4uski]

Since your needs for a second car are modest I presume that you do not put many miles on that second car... if so, why not just go out and replace the Echo with another econo-box... something used and cheap but not a lot of miles. Since you put on so few miles with it what it gets for mileage doesn't matter much.