Anyone check out the new Honda Insight yet?

Thanks M Paquette - looks like the car makes sense for you. Those are the kinds of "externalities" I was looking for. MPG alone doesn't cut it for most people.

It got me to wondering, why the heck does the govt give subsidies for hybrids, regardless of MPG? Shouldn't they just base the subsidy on MPG, regardless of technology?

-ERD50
 
I know the new VW Jetta diesel gets a tax rebate for high mileage. Maybe it is based on MPG?
 
I know the new VW Jetta diesel gets a tax rebate for high mileage. Maybe it is based on MPG?

I didn't know that - had to google:

Answer seems to be, no - not based on MPG. It seems Congress keeps wanting to play engineer:

Jetta Clean Diesel Will Be Eligible for Alternative Motor Vehicle Tax Credit–Diesel Blog


VW Press Release


HERNDON, Va.—Volkswagen of America, Inc. today announced that buyers of the Jetta TDI sedan and SportWagen are eligible for a $1,300 Federal Income Tax Credit. The Internal Revenue Service has issued a certification letter affirming that the vehicles qualify for the Advanced Lean Burn Technology Motor Vehicle income tax credit.

I have a big problem with this. How many Congress-critters could actually explain what "Lean Burn" technology is, let alone why it is a good idea for me to give someone $1,300 of my money for choosing a vehicle that has it?

Seems to me, if that technology is so great, people will buy it w/o a tax credit.

Second, it really screws up things. So let's say I develop a technology that is even better and cheaper to produce than "Lean Burn"? Guess what - it is tough for me to compete in the market place, because Congress already "blessed" "Lean Burn" technology. So, unless I can also convince Congress to allow a credit for my technology, it won't get sold. Then the next guy gets to play that game.


How does this benefit the consumer?

How does this benefit the taxpayer?

How does this help us to conserve, when the best technologies are not allowed to win on their own merits?

:mad:

-ERD50
 
I didn't know that - had to google:

Answer seems to be, no - not based on MPG. It seems Congress keeps wanting to play engineer:

Jetta Clean Diesel Will Be Eligible for Alternative Motor Vehicle Tax Credit–Diesel Blog




I have a big problem with this. How many Congress-critters could actually explain what "Lean Burn" technology is, let alone why it is a good idea for me to give someone $1,300 of my money for choosing a vehicle that has it?

Seems to me, if that technology is so great, people will buy it w/o a tax credit.

Second, it really screws up things. So let's say I develop a technology that is even better and cheaper to produce than "Lean Burn"? Guess what - it is tough for me to compete in the market place, because Congress already "blessed" "Lean Burn" technology. So, unless I can also convince Congress to allow a credit for my technology, it won't get sold. Then the next guy gets to play that game.


How does this benefit the consumer?

How does this benefit the taxpayer?

How does this help us to conserve, when the best technologies are not allowed to win on their own merits?

:mad:

-ERD50

I think you bring up a lot of good points, but I would say where the free market breaks down is in the area of externalities. The total cost of a particular transaction isn't being captured by the buyer and seller. I agree with the intent of govt. incentives but it seems the execution got messed up here. A simple measurement of mpg and emissions should be the only criteria, and let the market decide how to meet it.
 
A simple measurement of mpg and emissions should be the only criteria, and let the market decide how to meet it.

Or, simpler yet (as previously discussed)--don't legislate by technical edict (e.g. buy a car with a certain MPG or grams/mile emissions gets a tax credit) but just tax fuel at a higher rate. This does three things:
1) Gives technology free reign to solve the problem in the best way (lean burn? Hybrid? Injection of HOOH? Let the scientists and engineers compete and come up with the best solution for each vehicle type and use. They will be different)
2) Gets the most efficient cars in the driveways of the people who do the most driving. This is huge. It is a net environmental/energy loser to give a tax credit which encourages a 100 mile-per-week driver to trade in an 18 MPG car for a Prius. If anything, the government should figure out a way give him a tax incentive to keep driving that car as long as possible. On the other hand, getting a 150 mile-per-day driver into a fuel efficient car helps reduce those uncompensated externalities a lot.
3) Encourages fuel savings (what we say we are trying to achieve) rather than a particular means of fuel savings (hybrid vehicles, lean burn, hamster power, etc). Remember all the activity when gasoline was above $4 per gallon--activity on Craig's list and in offices to set up car pools, more public transportation ridership, etc. We had a real decrease in automobile miles driven for the first time in years. No tax credit for hybrid vehicles is going to accomplish that.

Also, as ERD-50 has pointed out, a steadily-increasing fuel tax (with a planned progression over many years) gives the public and the automotive engineers a clear picture of what lies ahead regarding fuel costs. This would provide a solid basis for making engineering and design changes and investments that is lacking today, and would serve as another incentive for technological improvement. This would be much more effective than the arbitrary and slowly increasing CAFE standards.

I like taxes--that I can avoid. I can drive less and avoid paying this tax.

Again, I'm not saying that we should necessarily have a fuel tax. But, all taxes modify behavior in some way. If we, as a society, believe that fuel use has uncompensated externalities that are truly worth the cost of addressing (cost= more lives lost in road accidents in smaller cars, reduced economic activity due to higher transportation costs, etc), then a revenue-neutral fuel tax probably makes much more sense than these rifle-shot technically-focused approaches. Congress should concentrate on the big-picture policy issues and get out of engineering.

Apologies if I sound like a broken record on this issue. But if they keep doing dumb things, it's hard not to chime in.
 
Apologies if I sound like a broken record on this issue. But if they keep doing dumb things, it's hard not to chime in.

+ 1 to all that samclem said.

Just to be crystal clear (I know samclem gets this, but just in case others didn't), I only mentioned incentive for MPG as being better than specific technology. But I agree and have mentioned before that taxing fuel would be an even better, simpler, more effective means to reduce consumption. So....

Fuel tax much better than MPG Credit.

MPG Credit much better than Specific Technology Credit.

Specific Technology Credit. = BAD LEGISLATION.

-ERD50
 
buying a new car every 10 years...another form of "bragging rights."

I have no opinion on the main argument here, but I do on the above assertion.

IMO there are so many reasons to buy a new car and take care of it. I watch people drive their late model Hondas right into the curb. Nothing like a 30 degree angle on a curb hit at 5mph! I hear them try to start on a hill with the clutch half engaged for about a block. I hear young women say "oil change? Why should I change the oil?"

Of course, I have only bought two used cars in my life, and a couple of trucks. The 2 cars were disasters, albeit cheap ones. The 1962 Chevy Apache Truck was great, after I replaced the ring and pinion gear. The 1973 Ford Truck with the 360 engine was a mess from day one.

I might have messed up by looking for cheap, but as long as new cars are as inexpensive as they are, I'll go new.

Ha
 
Or, simpler yet (as previously discussed)--don't legislate by technical edict (e.g. buy a car with a certain MPG or grams/mile emissions gets a tax credit) but just tax fuel at a higher rate. This does three things:
1) Gives technology free reign to solve the problem in the best way (lean burn? Hybrid? Injection of HOOH? Let the scientists and engineers compete and come up with the best solution for each vehicle type and use. They will be different)
2) Gets the most efficient cars in the driveways of the people who do the most driving. This is huge. It is a net environmental/energy loser to give a tax credit which encourages a 100 mile-per-week driver to trade in an 18 MPG car for a Prius. If anything, the government should figure out a way give him a tax incentive to keep driving that car as long as possible. On the other hand, getting a 150 mile-per-day driver into a fuel efficient car helps reduce those uncompensated externalities a lot.
3) Encourages fuel savings (what we say we are trying to achieve) rather than a particular means of fuel savings (hybrid vehicles, lean burn, hamster power, etc). Remember all the activity when gasoline was above $4 per gallon--activity on Craig's list and in offices to set up car pools, more public transportation ridership, etc. We had a real decrease in automobile miles driven for the first time in years. No tax credit for hybrid vehicles is going to accomplish that.

Also, as ERD-50 has pointed out, a steadily-increasing fuel tax (with a planned progression over many years) gives the public and the automotive engineers a clear picture of what lies ahead regarding fuel costs. This would provide a solid basis for making engineering and design changes and investments that is lacking today, and would serve as another incentive for technological improvement. This would be much more effective than the arbitrary and slowly increasing CAFE standards.

I like taxes--that I can avoid. I can drive less and avoid paying this tax.

Again, I'm not saying that we should necessarily have a fuel tax. But, all taxes modify behavior in some way. If we, as a society, believe that fuel use has uncompensated externalities that are truly worth the cost of addressing (cost= more lives lost in road accidents in smaller cars, reduced economic activity due to higher transportation costs, etc), then a revenue-neutral fuel tax probably makes much more sense than these rifle-shot technically-focused approaches. Congress should concentrate on the big-picture policy issues and get out of engineering.

Apologies if I sound like a broken record on this issue. But if they keep doing dumb things, it's hard not to chime in.

Sounds good to me. Cutting the BS and getting to the heart of the matter. But tax increases like that are a third rail now.
 
Sounds good to me. Cutting the BS and getting to the heart of the matter. But tax increases like that are a third rail now.

But when we pay someone $3,000 to buy technology X, isn't it really the same thing?

Where does the $3,000 come from - taxes. So it *is* a tax increase. And, since it is clearly less effective than a fuel tax, it is costing more $ for the benefit received, so it is *over-taxing* us.

Sure, the average citizen probably doesn't look at it that way, because "someone else" will pay that tax. That is why I think basic financial education is so important. We can't solve problems if people don't really understand what effect the action has on the problem. It is more likely that the action will make it worse.

-ERD50
 
Hmm, dealer offering $1500 under invoice, plus $1300 tax credit on the new Jetta diesel.

My car addiction is acting up again!
 
I don't understand what direction people are trying to take my comments in. I'm just trying to understand what motivates some people to buy a hybrid.

The OP mentioned mpg and questioned cost effectiveness. He also said the technology "interested him". OK, but at that point what diff does the mpg/economics make?

It just seems that a lot of people have the idea of getting high mpg to save gas, but ignore other costs. Is that an unreasonable observation? Is it an unreasonable thing to discuss here?-ERD50

It's sounds like a "green discussion", I guess I am not invited.........:ROFLMAO:

The Insight is too small for me. My aunt's Honda Fit Sport is a cool car, but I feel claustrophobic in it. if Honda imports a diesel Accord wagon or comes out with a hybrid Accord wagon I am there.......:)
 
Hmm, dealer offering $1500 under invoice, plus $1300 tax credit on the new Jetta diesel.

My car addiction is acting up again!

I thought you got a beautiful used BMW last year! :LOL:

Car addiction, or are you now a COLLECTOR??:)
 
I recently drove both versions of the Honda Insight and have concluded that it is not the car for me. Reasons: First, Honda Canada based their pricing on US pricing, and the result is a car that is just too expensive for what you get. The more expensive version is full of consumer electronics and IMHO, not worth the money. Second, it's a SMALL CAR. The Honda Civic DXG is cheaper, roomier and a lot better value. Third, the engine sounds like a regular engine. Among hybrids, I just prefer the Prius starter mechanism and technology.

Honest Honda dealers are not expecting the Insight to do well in Canada for these reasons, especially the pricing.

Meanwhile, I am still happily driving my 1995 Accord and am planning to keep it till it dies or becomes too expensive to run.
 
I visited a Ford dealer last week and sat in the Fusion hybrid. Space-wise, there's a lot of room in there. The cabin is as big as the regular Fusion. The sales guy said that, unlike the regular Fusion, you can't fold down the back seat and make a large trunk/rear-seat area, but this isn't a feature I've used in my other sedans (because none had it!). At an MSRP of about $27K and mileage of 41 (city)/36 (hwy), this car might be a great one for people who not only want to make a "green" statement, but also want to support a US automaker when they "get it right." The fact that Ford is standing on its own feet and hasn't taken the bailout $$ is a motivator for some of us, too.
I don't drive many miles annually now, so this purchase would probably have a prohibitively long payback period for me. But if I were driving 80 miles per day, it would be a contender. 700 miles per tankful would feel pretty good when gas goes back up over $4 per gallon.
 
I like Fords and have had good luck with them. I wonder why the Fusion hybrid only comes in top of the line trim. Hey, I love all the bells and whistles, but hate paying for them!

Yeah, my bimmer is great. Finally got it back from the shop. NAV still doesnt work so I bought a used nav computer online. Hope that fixes it. Shop gave small "good will" payment, not enough for the hassle.

Been thinking of getting a low maintenance/cheaper maintenance vehicle.
 
camry hybrid

We just bought a Camry hybrid for my wife. She drives about 75 miles round trip each day. She has to entertain a bit at work and wanted leather and "features." Needless to say, I'm the only one in the household reading this board.

Anyway. She wanted a hybrid for miles and still something big enough to get the two kids in when need be. I stay home, so I drive an Odyssey as our primary family car.

At this point, I'm afraid I have a deep rooted Honda/Toyota bias, and I limited her to that. We did look at the insight, and I was really hoping it was the one. Great mileage and a honda. In the end, it just didn't have the "bling" she was looking for. She had driven her '97 civic to 200k and wanted a nicer car.

By my numbers she'll be making money on the hybrid in about 8 yrs, IF gas prices remain at today's numbers through that period. If they go higher, it'll come sooner.

The camry is a bigger car, and with all the electronic crap in it, I sure hope it holds out for 10-12 yrs. I must say, this is not your/my grandma's camry. This thing is a nice car. Maybe I'm just used to driving cars into the gound, but all this bluetooth and nav and MPG monitoring, keyless entry and start tech is pretty fun.

I'm enjoying learning how to use all the junk. It's also very comfortable, and quiet.

Oh, and beyond all the math and variables...she's really happy with her new car. I coudn't get this out of the prius, insight, or accord. In the end, the hybrid, leather, kids combination brought the camry to the top.
O0
devo
 
DW got a Camry Hybrid in 2007, she absolutely loves it.


I will most likely buy a 2010 Prius which will make us a two hybrid car family, but I drove a 2010 Insight EX earlier this week. The reviews seemed to conclude:
  • pros - as lowest cost high mileage hybrid, sporty handling, good value
  • cons - rougher/noisier than the Prius, not a good long trip car.
After driving it, I was pleasantly surprised with the Insight. It was much quieter, smoother than I expected after the online reviews. It's only noisy at very high speeds or if you jump on the gas, but why would a potential hybrid buyer drive it like that? I am sure you can do better, but the highest mileage I saw on the dash was high 39 mpg even though I drove it very conservatively (the dash was glowing green at the time).

I will probably still buy the Prius because I want more features and the Prius is of equal or better value IMHO for what you get. The Prius is larger, quieter, more comfortable, better appointed and still gets higher (EPA) mileage than the Insight.

But the Insight is a real contender IMO and I hope they both sell well.
 
We just bought a Camry hybrid for my wife. She drives about 75 miles round trip each day. She has to entertain a bit at work and wanted leather and "features." Needless to say, I'm the only one in the household reading this board.

Anyway. She wanted a hybrid for miles and still something big enough to get the two kids in when need be. I stay home, so I drive an Odyssey as our primary family car.

At this point, I'm afraid I have a deep rooted Honda/Toyota bias, and I limited her to that. We did look at the insight, and I was really hoping it was the one. Great mileage and a honda. In the end, it just didn't have the "bling" she was looking for. She had driven her '97 civic to 200k and wanted a nicer car.

By my numbers she'll be making money on the hybrid in about 8 yrs, IF gas prices remain at today's numbers through that period. If they go higher, it'll come sooner.

The camry is a bigger car, and with all the electronic crap in it, I sure hope it holds out for 10-12 yrs. I must say, this is not your/my grandma's camry. This thing is a nice car. Maybe I'm just used to driving cars into the gound, but all this bluetooth and nav and MPG monitoring, keyless entry and start tech is pretty fun.

I'm enjoying learning how to use all the junk. It's also very comfortable, and quiet.

Oh, and beyond all the math and variables...she's really happy with her new car. I coudn't get this out of the prius, insight, or accord. In the end, the hybrid, leather, kids combination brought the camry to the top.
O0
devo

I'm curious. What is your projected future maintenance on that hybrid? Making money on it in 8yrs. Im impressed!
 
NML,
You likely know more about this stuff than I do. I used these numbers from motor trend and I projected triple this amount for the second five years. But my understanding of Toyota's warranty is 8yrs/100,000 on all hybrid components, and 10 yrs on the batteries themselves. So I didn't account for much in the way of maintenance specifically for hybrid vs. conventional. Maybe I messed up there...don't know. :confused:

Motor Trend Camry Hybrid

Toyota's Warranty Page

O0
devo
 
The Insight is too small for me.

I don't like the look of the Camry hybrid, so not to that.

The Prius look is ok, but still a little weird

The Ford Fusion hybrid is SHARP, probably the only one I would consider if I went down that road.......:)
 
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