Apple v FBI

[Texas Proud]

Well, having extremely close and personal connections to both 9-11 and the Boston Bombings, I'm sure that my perspective is a bit skewed, but, you had to be there I guess.

How close? A relative and a neighbor's sister on flight 11.
DW was directly across the street from the devastation on Boylston St. less than 200 feet away. Took me two hours find her.

So, yeah, from my vantage point, we're at war; you can look at what's in my phone.

Considering that I actually saw the WTC come down out my apt window and lived there for an extra day before walking out of the zone, I think I can say I was there.... I did not know anybody who died, but every one of my coworkers did... a neighbor, a friend, somebody they said HI to in the building....

However, being there should not matter... I think most every American has an emotional tie in some way or another to the attack...

 

[Senator]

Just because you decided that you're willing to accept warrantless searches, does not mean the rest of us should be compelled to.

Governments have shown, throughout history and geography, that when they take civil liberties in the name of war/terrorism/whatever the problem du jour is, they will use those new powers 1% of the time for the intended purpose and 99% of the time for unrelated things just because it serves their purposes. And usually that ends up being abusive.

I hope Apple continues to fight this.

Virtually every DUI stop is a warrant-less search, but we as a society accept it.

This is a losing battle for Apple. It is ordered by the Court to comply. That is as good as a warrant.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Maybe I am missing something, but why Apple cannot retrieve the data and give it to the FBI without releasing any info or software (one time service), I do not know. I find it hard to believe that they do not know how to get data of their own designed piece of hardware. JMHO

 

[HFWR]

I wonder if Apple would change their tune if the IRS sent an audit notice to all on the Board of directors...

Or if the Government blocked the airwaves for any phone company that did not give them the keys.

Let the Court proceedings continue and throw the CEO in jail for contempt until it finishes. And let the IRS continue to do the job that they are set out to do.

These are excellent illustrations of the over-reach of government power many are concerned about...

 

[soupcxan]

Also, whenever you see the government passing a law because "think of the children!!!" you know it's gonna be a bad law.

 

[NW-Bound]

+10

Edit Add

In another thread M Paquette gave a really good desription some of the security features. The linked thread is a fairly detailed discussion of how it is done and the problems it poses in breaking attempts.

Encryption isn’t at stake, the FBI knows Apple already has the desired key | Ars Technica

I glanced through the above article, and saw that what the FBI wanted is assistance from Apple to get into this terrorist's phone and this phone only, and already had the permission from the phone owner's, namely San Bernardino County.

It is not about a backdoor into any and every phone. So, why is Apple resisting? For just causes, a court order will already let the police search a residence, open a bank vault, etc... We are not talking about letting the state into any random home or into any phone. If there is a court order to search a suspect's apartment, can the apartment landlord decline?

So, what is the problem?

 

[photoguy]

The FBI/CIA knows who the best hackers are. Some can be probably be found at Blackhat/Defcon, maybe. Hey in the US, these conferences are held in Las Vegas so why doesn't the FBI put some money up with a "specification" and challenge. If these guys/gals (hackers) are so good, simply offer "the first of them" to win (capture the flag in Defcon parlance) $10m to design and effectively demonstrate the code/method necessary to break into such a device, as specified. If successful, the FBI gets what they want, someone (the hacker) is rewarded for their efforts/skills, and Apple would know they need to fix their code.

I'm guessing that either the FBI can already get in the phone themselves, either by writing the software they want to Apple to make or by some other hack. Probably they could also give it to the NSA and have them get in.

I think this is all about picking the most "sympathetic" case to set a precedent and force tech companies to put in back doors.

I bet if Apple is forced to comply, the next thing we will see is China doing the same.

 

[Ronstar]

Maybe Apple can't assist the FBI in breaking the terrorist's phone without giving an indication of how to break all iPhones.


Sent from my iPhone .using Early Retirement .//82339)

 

[MichaelB]

So, what is the problem?

Apple has no relationship with the contents of the phone. It would be acting as a skilled agent on behalf of the authorities. If it acknowledges the request is legitimate and it has the capability to do so, it could be compelled to repeat this again, and by other authorities.

If the authorities want the contents of the phone, they have the authority to access it to retrieve them.

+1@Photoguy. Not just China. Every gov't around the world and across the US.

 

[audreyh1]

I think this is all about picking the most "sympathetic" case to set a precedent and force tech companies to put in back doors.

I bet if Apple is forced to comply, the next thing we will see is China doing the same.

That's what I think.

 

[Senator]

I bet if Apple is forced to comply, the next thing we will see is China doing the same.

What would China do if Apple said "No"? It would not surprise me if Apple had to give it up to do business in China, or they already had a back door.

Aren't these things made in China?

 

[Texas Proud]

Virtually every DUI stop is a warrant-less search, but we as a society accept it.

This is a losing battle for Apple. It is ordered by the Court to comply. That is as good as a warrant.

I could be wrong, but I do not think they can search the whole vehicle with the stop.... they first observe someone that appears to be driving drunk... they pull them over... they then have to make a determination of they still think they are drunk.... and even then I am not sure they can search the whole vehicle without asking...


One time I was pulled over late at night... I got out of my car and talked to the officer... I was not drunk... He could tell I was not drunk... said he pulled me over since I was 'weaving' near the center line (who knows, I might have been).... but, within seconds he told me why he stopped me and said he could tell I was not drunk and let me go.... he did not check my drivers license or even look through the windows of the car (which I think he can do without a warrant)....

 

[Ronnieboy]

On BLACKLIST this week, the story revolved around a NSA program that allowed them to access webcams on any device. The program got out 'into the wild' and it was being used by nefarious people. Seems that it could parallel this issue.....

 

[MichaelB]

I bet if Apple is forced to comply, the next thing we will see is China doing the same.

Not just China. If there is one thing we excel at in the US, it is taking a precedent and finding a way to use it in another situation for which it was not originally intended. And again, and again..

 

[ls99]

So, what is the problem?

From a personal point of view, privacy trumps the FBI's poking, let them do the hacking of the phone. If they can't, well tough tooties. Disclaimer: I am no fan of apple. Quiet to the contrary.

As for legal point, since my JD is inscribed on a framed sheet of toilet paper hanging near the throne, I'll let members of the bar in good standing sort it out.That is why they get the big buck$$$.

 

[ls99]

On BLACKLIST this week, the story revolved around a NSA program that allowed them to access webcams on any device. The program got out 'into the wild' and it was being used by nefarious people. Seems that it could parallel this issue.....

Hence the "small piece of black electrical tape" over the camera of my pc, and some fire putty over the microphone. Besides having the drivers for the devices deleted from my PC.

Have at it boys.

 

[NW-Bound]

... I bet if Apple is forced to comply, the next thing we will see is China doing the same.

Apple has no relationship with the contents of the phone. It would be acting as a skilled agent on behalf of the authorities. If it acknowledges the request is legitimate and it has the capability to do so, it could be compelled to repeat this again, and by other authorities.

If the authorities want the contents of the phone, they have the authority to access it to retrieve them.

+1@Photoguy. Not just China. Every gov't around the world and across the US.

China would just ban the sales of iPhones. They have domestic smartphone companies now. And they already control their local Internet and all firewalls.

And many countries do not bother to go to this trouble to break into anyone's phone. They just say "How many fingernails and toenails you want to have left when you finally give me the passcode?". No court order is even necessary, like in this case in the US.

Of course, in this case the culprits are already dead, but many countries act preemptively without regard to human rights, let alone privacy like we do here.

 

[ls99]

China would just ban the sales of iPhones. They have domestic smartphone companies now. And they already control their local Internet and all firewalls.

And many countries do not bother to go to this trouble to break into anyone's phone. They just say "How many fingernails and toenails you want to have left when you finally give me the passcode?". No court order is even necessary, like in this case in the US.

Hard to get dead people to object to having nails pulled. As in this case.

It may be annoying at times to have the constitution get in way, I have grown up lived under alternative systems, to me it is not an academic excercise in thought process..

 

[NW-Bound]

Well, how about them pulling fingernails of the people who refuse assistance?

Yes, we have the Constitution. That's why we require a court order to enter someone's home, or get into his phone.

 

[ls99]

Well, how about them pulling fingernails of the people who refuse assistance?


Yes, we have the Constitution. That's why we require a court order to enter someone's home, or get into his phone.

Yes that is effective. Hungary had a supreme leader installed who had all 20 nails extracted.

Ah yes, court oders are good thing, can be appealed, once the supremes rule, then we must abide.

 

[MichaelB]

Well, how about them pulling fingernails of the people who refuse assistance?

Yes, we have the Constitution. That's why we require a court order to enter someone's home, or get into his phone.

Yes, the court order allows authorities to access private property. It does not allow the authorities to compel someone else to access that property on their behalf.

 

[NW-Bound]

Yes, the court order allows authorities to access private property. It does not allow the authorities to compel someone else to access that property on their behalf.

Hmm... I guess you have a point there.

Now, in war time, the authorities can compel people to do things they don't want to do, and call it the draft. Perhaps we will have to wait until war is declared.

I dunno. I do not know, and to tell you the truth, do not care that much about this subject. I am going back to snoozing now.

 

[Philliefan33]

I tend to agree with Apple on this one. This, despite DH being retired FBI. In fact, I think he sides with Apple also. We both asked the question posed up thread--did they try using the deceased person's fingerprints to open the phone?

Didn't I see the Apple CEO on tv yesterday claiming that Apple doesn't have the software or other ability to open the phone? If you believe him, does the FBI expect Apple to devote resources to develop the method?

Of course we need to do everything we can to combat terrorism. Except trample all over the Constitution to get it done.

 

[ls99]

Just another perhaps relevant tidbit. Farook and his wife destroyed their personal phones. The ultimate encryption.

This phone owned by his emloyer, is less likely to have any relevant info than the ultimately encrypted personal phones.

Me thinks FBI and DOJ are just attempting to set a precedent under a convenient flag.

BTW where is the all knowing NSA intercept of all this valuable information?

 

[MichaelB]

Hmm... I guess you have a point there.

Now, in war time, the authorities can compel people to do things they don't want to do, and call it the draft. Perhaps we will have to wait until war is declared.

I dunno. I do not know, and to tell you the truth, do not care that much about this subject. I am going back to snoozing now.

Well, if I had studied law as my father so deeply desired, I'd probably have a clue. No snoozing for me, I have to set the table for dinner.