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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-14-2005, 08:15 PM   #61
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

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Originally Posted by Austin_Explorer
I can't stand the current obsession with killing all bacteria, like that is really an option.* What people needs to realize is that "germs" are EVERYWHERE, all of the time.* And of the bacteria that the products kill, 99.99% are perfectly harmless and the other 0.01% could just as easily be removed through normal soap and water.

Top it all of with the long term side effect of more quickly making useless the arsenal of antibiotics that we have to use in grave situations because everyday use has allowed the bacteria a greater chance of developing an resistance to them.

So we're trading life saving applications for short term psychological comfort for hysterical parents.* This doesn't make sense to me.

I'll say it again.* Germs are EVERYWHERE.* There would be no life on Earth without bacteria.* Trying to get rid of all of it is a fool's errand.
You would be right if Purell were an antibiotic. It isn't, it is alcohol plus moisturizers. One can kill germs all day long with this, and it will have no effect on a virus's or bacterium's genetic code, hence no effect on it's susceptibility to anti-microbial agents.

This is simple hygiene. This is why you are supposed to cover your mouth and nose when you sneeze; also why you are supposed to wash hands thoroughly after using the bathroom.

And incidentally, rubbing Purell on your hands is not trying to rid the earth of bacteria, it is only trying to lower the number of pathogenic microorganisms on your hands.

http://www.purell.com/faq.aspx#q1

Ha
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-14-2005, 09:04 PM   #62
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Ha, I'm pretty sure evolution doesn't care what bactericide you use. If a few of the *large* population of bugs on your hands include any hardy resistant critters that survive your mass-kill attempt, you have selected for that mutation or species. You are playing god with Purell. Use it wisely.

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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-14-2005, 09:10 PM   #63
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

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Originally Posted by wab
Ha, I'm pretty sure evolution doesn't care what bactericide you use.* * If a few of the *large* population of bugs on your hands include any hardy resistant critters that survive your mass-kill attempt, you have selected for that mutation or species.* *You are playing god with Purell.* Use it wisely.*
That's good point Wab. But could alcohol be so quantitatively more effective at indiscriminatingly killing organisms that it might almost make a categorical difference?

But damn, I guess when you get right down to it, there is nowhere to hide.

Ha
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-14-2005, 09:34 PM   #64
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Last year the kids and I shook John Kerry's hand.
We then went to eat chinese.
Before we ate, I told them we better wash up real good because we just shook Kerry's hand.
All the hands a politician shakes during a campaign, how do they stay healthy?
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-14-2005, 11:48 PM   #65
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

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Originally Posted by DanTien
All the hands a politician shakes during a campaign, how do they stay healthy?
They don't rub their eyes, pick their nose, or lick their fingers.* *And they all have one of these:

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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-15-2005, 06:58 AM   #66
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

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Originally Posted by Ol_Rancher
Martha,
* * * * * * *Did your Dad really advocate that everyone eat 8 dry quarts; 1/4 bushel; or 0.3111 cubic feet of dirt? If so how long did it take you?
Mine did... not sure if I'm done yet. He gave me till I died and hopefully I still have 30 or 40 years to go.

Bruce
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-15-2005, 08:28 AM   #67
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
That's good point Wab. But could alcohol be so quantitatively more effective at indiscriminatingly killing organisms that it might almost make a categorical difference?


Ha: I think you're onto something here.

Jack Nicholson to Shirley MacLaine. (He was, well, the usual Jack, and she played an up-tight widow that he finally convinced to go to lunch with him.

"Give us a couple of dry double martinees, jack told the waiter." Shirley MacLaine responed with " I rarely drink, and certainly don't drink at this hour".
"Trust me on this little point", Jack responded, you need about 3 drinks to kill that bug that has crawled up your a--!

Seemed to work, as they had great time after that.

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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-15-2005, 09:15 AM   #68
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Jarhead, that was THE best line of that movie!!!

My dh is always washing his hands, I do to but not to the degree he does. Funny though seems like every winter he gets sick and I stay healthy.

Cj
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-15-2005, 01:16 PM   #69
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

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Originally Posted by Outtahere
My dh is always washing his hands, I do to but not to the degree he does. Funny though seems like every winter he gets sick and I stay healthy.
He must be killing all those "good" germs living on his hands.
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-17-2005, 10:30 AM   #70
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
You would be right if Purell were an antibiotic. It isn't, it is alcohol plus moisturizers. One can kill germs all day long with this, and it will have no effect on a virus's or bacterium's genetic code, hence no effect on it's susceptibility to anti-microbial agents.
My comments weren't directed at Purell per se, but rather the wide spread near-hysteria with germs from which many companies benefit. Purell may be a fine product, but it also benefits from the mania.
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-17-2005, 10:40 AM   #71
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Purell is a great product for when you can't wash your hands but to be using it all day long instead of or in addition to is over the top.
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-17-2005, 11:23 AM   #72
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Unless the first washing was with "Brown 25"... :P
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-17-2005, 02:47 PM   #73
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outtahere
My dh is always washing his hands, I do to but not to the degree he does. Funny though seems like every winter he gets sick and I stay healthy.
Cj
It's because you keep putting your dirty hands all over the poor guy. Have Mercy Honey!*

Ha

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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-17-2005, 02:50 PM   #74
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-Jarhead
Jack Nicholson to Shirley MacLaine.* (He was, well, the usual Jack, and she played an up-tight widow that he finally convinced to go to lunch with him.

"Give us a couple of dry double martinees, jack told the waiter."* Shirley MacLaine responed with " I rarely drink, and certainly don't drink at this hour".
"Trust me on this little point", Jack responded, you need about 3 drinks to kill that bug that has crawled up your a--!

Seemed to work, as they had great time after that.
LOL! Thanks for the tip Jarhead, I have to rent that movie.

Ha
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-17-2005, 03:20 PM   #75
 
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

The thing that bugs me about the media is that they leave out the most important piece of critical information. They say "If the virus mutates in such a way that it can spread from person to person, we might have a pandemic." But they don't say what the chances of that mutation are estimated to me.

If the virus mutates in such a way that it can drive a car and operate automatic weapons, we'll be in trouble too, but the chances of that happening are pretty small.
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-17-2005, 05:20 PM   #76
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

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Originally Posted by TromboneAl
If the virus mutates in such a way that it can drive a car and operate automatic weapons, we'll be in trouble too, but the chances of that happening are pretty small.
Yeah, but it'd be pretty cool.

The mutations are pretty random (combination of replication errors and swapping genes with other viruses). The mutation rates of flu viruses are very high (RNA replication is more error prone than DNA replication). But it's the selective forces that determine which mutations survive. I can't imagine any selective forces that would drive viral evolution towards joy riding in cars.

But, these viruses infect your lungs. We expel matter from our lungs all the time, so there's an easy transmission route. I have no idea why H5N1 isn't easily transmitted from human to human. Maybe it needs a open wound as a point of entry. Maybe it can't survive outside of the body very long. Maybe it infects cells deep in the lung where it isn't easily expelled.

It seems probable to me that it will eventually evolve a means of human-to-human transmission, but I couldn't guess how long that would take or whether that strain will have other mutations that make it less lethal, for example.
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-17-2005, 05:26 PM   #77
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshac
H5N1 has now shown up in Romania, presumably carried there by migratory birds. Lovely* :P
I hadn't heard about Romania, but they found it in Turkey late last week, and today I heard they've also found it in Greece.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9728684/
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-18-2005, 12:40 PM   #78
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Here are some tips somebody in the "biz" sent to me.* *Nothing really new here, but useful info nonetheless.

The take-away message is not to panic, but to consider rational, comprehensive preparedness and response in the event of a pandemic.
The first thing to do is to pay attention to news reports. The movement of the Bird Flu virus to Europe is important,
but this is far less important than its spread to people. Thus, our antennae must be tuned to human infection and,
particularly, to the first case or cases of person-to-person transmission. If this occurs, certain preventive measures are essential:

1. Minimize travel
2. Avoid crowded places
3. Wash hands with soap and water and use hand sanitizers
4. Eventually, if the outbreak becomes significant and proximate to your area:
a. Wear a protective mask in public
b. Stay at home if possible
c. Keep your children out of school

Even absent a pandemic, simple preparedness measures are in order. Our staff of medical doctors and public health experts recommends that you have a general prevention and preparedness plan for both home and work. Some of the items to consider are:

Developing a telecommuting plan to encourage ill employees to stay home and prevent transmission of illnesses to the remainder of the workforce
Acquiring properly-fitting N-95 filtering facepiece respirators for necessary tasks, e.g. Travel, care of sick family members, etc.
Acquiring and storing an adequate supply of food and water
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-18-2005, 02:59 PM   #79
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
a. Wear a protective mask in public
?!
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Re: Bird Flu Redux
Old 10-18-2005, 03:11 PM   #80
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Re: Bird Flu Redux

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