Could an Aggressive Energy Program Revitalize the US?

[ERD50]

Given the conversion losses, it might be better to run a (smaller) gas motor all the time as the primary drive, and engage the electric motors only for acceleration or other times when power requirements exceeded the max output of the gas engine.

Hey samclem, this wiki's for you!

Hybrid vehicle drivetrain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They kick in the engine for sustained high speed driving. Of course, this complicates things with extra clutches and transmissions to match engine/motor/road speed. And more weight.

Also read up some on the A123systems batteries. These wouldn't do much for the Tesla, unless they are safer/cheaper, but they have a much higher discharge rate, and can be charged fast, like 10-15 minutes (still not shipping yet though). But, that would help for hybrids, where you need the boost, but not the range.

I just checked their site, they are shipping them for Power Tools though - didn't know that. So, maybe 'real soon now':

A123Systems :: Home


A123’s award winning Nanophosphate™ technology made its debut in the power tool industry with DeWALT’s professional 36V power tool line.

Mass Produced for Industry Leader

• + Millions of Cells Per Year Produced for DeWALT and Black & Decker

Fast Charge Capability

• + M1Ultra Electrode Design Provides Less than 5 Minute Charge to greater than 90% Capacity

Extended Cycle Life

• + Nanophosphate™ Chemistry Provides Thousands of 100% DOD Cycles

Power to Make a Difference

• + Nanoscale Particles Provide Unmatched Discharge Power Enabling New Portable Applications

And just for fun - 158 mph in the 1/4 mile on an electric motorcycle powered by A123's

YouTube - Speed Records Killacycle

-ERD50

 

[mb]

The EESTORE 'supercap' (though still vaporware) is one, capacitors can be recharged extremely fast, if you have the power available. No chemical reaction, just a matter of how fast you can pump in the power w/o overheating the thing.
.

Here's an interesting one: Zinc-bromine flow battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And... Flywheel energy storage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
-ERD50

EEStor may be for real. They have been very secretive but I know someone that has visited them that says their prototypes work. Contrary to an earlier post it is not what most people call a supercap where energy is stored in something called the electrical double layer but it is an electrolytic capacitor on steroids that stores charge across a very high voltage dielectric. This issue as I understand it is can they purify the dielectric material enough to prevent break down.

Exxon did a lot of work on Zn/Br2 batteries in the 70s. They abandoned it in the early 1980s, around the time oil prices went down. I don't think that it is part of the solution.

Don't know much about flywheels. But I know a couple of people that say they are the energy storage technology of the future and always will be. I recall visiting one site that was working on flywheels. They had their prototype in a pit. They put a steel plate about 10" thick over the pit when they operated it in case in came apart. I recall being really impressed with the steel plate.

MB

 

[waltwill8]

Isn't this interesting (if seemingly dangerous, but so is hydrogen)
Air Car - First Air-Powered Car - Zero Emissions - Behind the Tech - Popular Mechanics

 

[mb]

Also read up some on the A123systems batteries. These wouldn't do much for the Tesla, unless they are safer/cheaper, but they have a much higher discharge rate, and can be charged fast, like 10-15 minutes (still not shipping yet though). But, that would help for hybrids, where you need the boost, but not the range.

I just checked their site, they are shipping them for Power Tools though - didn't know that. So, maybe 'real soon now':

A123Systems :: Home


-ERD50

I'm optimistic about the phosphate materials for vehicles. It is safe(r) and the materials are cheap although the present manufacturing processes are not necessarily cheap.

Other Li-ion positive electrode materials are unstable and react exothermically if they are overcharged or exposed to high temperatures. Phosphates don't so they have inherent safety advantages.

A123 has been very successful so far. Interestingly phosphates from other institutions have performed as well as those from A123 (MIT actually but I assume that it is similar to A123) in tests done by the national labs.

MB

 

[samclem]

Don't know much about flywheels. But I know a couple of people that say they are the energy storage technology of the future and always will be. I recall visiting one site that was working on flywheels. They had their prototype in a pit. They put a steel plate about 10" thick over the pit when they operated it in case in came apart. I recall being really impress with the steel plate.

MB

All the flywheels I've seen for potential vehicle use are made of various high-strength fibers (carbon, Kevlar, etc) and are supposed to go to tiny, light bits if they fail structurally. But, they still have a robust containment vessel for the flywheel. Any loss of vaccum in the containment vessel leads to breakup of the flywheel, which is also a good safety measure.

I wonder how they cope with the gyroscopic forces as they affect vehicle handling. No matter how you mount the sucker, there's some conceivable circumstance when you'd want the vehicle to move in such a way as to change the orientation of the flywheel's axis of rotation--and that's gonna be really tough to do!

 

[samclem]

Hey samclem, this wiki's for you!
Hybrid vehicle drivetrain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
-ERD50

Dang, there's a lot of good info there, thanks. It's a little hard to distinguish the marketing labels from the engineering ones.

Ref the A123 batteries: I'm envisioning a cool personal vehicle project. First I'll need a scooter frame, some belts and pulleys, and two DeWalt cordless angle grinders . . .

 

[TromboneAl]

Funny, I was going to ask about the gyroscopic effects. A little googling showed that you can cancel out the effects:

[SIZE=+1]Removing the Gyroscopic Moment[/SIZE]
http://www.mariner.connectfree.co.uk/html/gyro.htm​

If the equations for angular momentum and gyroscopic moment are truly independent, can we separate angular moment from gyroscopic moment in a flywheel? The answer is “Yes” - simply ensure the mass travels in a circular path, but does not rotate. Imagine a flywheel which is simply a frame that carries two masses which are free to rotate independently on their own axles...

Then add some gearing (not shown) that makes the two masses counter-rotate slowly in the opposite sense to the frame’s rotation. This is at a much lower rotation rate than the frame’s rotation, just enough to offset the small gyroscopic moment of the frame. With the right gearing the frame’s gyroscopic moment will be annulled by the masses’ counter-moment and you will have a flywheel with plenty of angular moment, but no gyroscopic moment. Many other arrangements are possible - two contra-rotating flywheels close to each other on the same axis will do the trick; the gyroscopic moments cancel out but the angular moments add.
The application of such a device is to engines in high-performance machines. For example the engines in small aircraft have such a high gyroscopic moment that they can affect the handling of the aircraft, and longitudinally- mounted engines in racing cars can affect manoeuverability.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

"The nation that controls magnetism will control the universe!"

 

[chinaco]

Hey, Tesla is using laptop batteries. Well. I guess I will need a new one every year! Those maintenance agreements are going to be popular.

A lot of interesting comments so far.

Here is a question?

Do you think we are going to need other infrastructure changes. Maybe we are going to have to make other changes also... Keep the laughter down on these ...

Will our interstate highways need to have some sort of power source (like electric trains). This would enable vehicles to not need a long-distance power source when traveling for distances that are over say over 50 miles on the interstate highway system. This could run side-by-side with conventional vehicles during any transition which would take years. Even take that idea a bit further. Once your car gets on the "on-ramp" and then the system just takes over gets you from "point A to point B". Provide power to ones car and recharge the battery along the way?


Or will there be patches of the road (mile long stretch) every so often on the interstate that are like transformers that recharge while the car is on the road and driving?


Another thing that seems to be important that we lack in this country is a decent high speed train system. If I were going on a 500 or 700 mile drive, I would not mind planning the trip and loading the car on a train (that takes passengers) and unload the car upon arrival and off you we go.