Diamond - ethical question

[JustMeUC]

This post reminds me of the one a few months ago about buying kitchen cabinets from a soon-to-be-foreclosed house.

Buying goods that you know are are stolen makes you an accessory to the crime. And a slimeball, IMO.

It's wrong, you know it's wrong, and no amount of rationalizing will ever make it right.

Decide what kind of person you want to be, and live with your decision.

Perhaps my friend is a slimeball? Perhaps he should have explained the value of the stone... but he doesn't KNOW the ring was stolen and I CERTAINLY don't know it!

I guess I will leave this conversation now

 

[Westernskies]

Perhaps my friend is a slimeball? ... but he doesn't KNOW the ring was stolen and I CERTAINLY don't know it!

... perhaps you need new friends...

 

[FUEGO]

REPLY TO FUEGO:

It would cost him as a jewelry store owner apx $2500 to purchase this stone from a diamond broker. He could sell this stone to a diamond broker for apx. $2000. A diamond goes through many many levels from mine to retail. A used diamond often goes through a few levels too.

Here is a diamond broker (I have used them several times) explanation of the process: Selling Your Diamond - Pricing Guide Part 1

I know enough about diamonds, and I have bought at "wholesale" before. But I can't sell what I bought at wholesale prices for the same price that I bought it for (generally speaking). That's why I'm saying you're diamond in your friend's hands is only "worth" $2000 wholesale if that is what he can sell it for "wholesale".

 

[FUEGO]

By the way, I may be in the minority here, but if I honestly don't think the diamond was stolen, then I would be okay buying it, even if that means my friend ripped off the $150 seller.

If I did think it was stolen, then I wouldn't buy it. Mainly for practical reasons. You would obtain imperfect title to the diamond if it was stolen originally, so if it is ever found by police, you will lose the ring. And you could be potentially criminally liable for possession of stolen goods depending on what you knew. Although paying close to the wholesale value might get you out of that one. Of course the ethical consideration of not encouraging a black market in stolen goods would be thrown in the equation, but trumped by the practical considerations.

But why do people place so much value on a lump of carbon, I will never know. And you got some shady friends!

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

But why do people place so much value on a lump of carbon

careful, you're liable to upset the apple cart.

"nothing is precious save what is yourself in others and others in yourself"~~pierre teilhard de chardin

 

[Zoocat]

As a woman, I offer this alternative point of view. I don't wear diamonds, ever, for all the reasons given in the previous posts. My cubic zirconia ear rings sparkle quite nicely!

Little lies, little compromises -- they add up. How much is your self-image worth to you?

 

[Westernskies]

As a woman, I offer this alternative point of view. I don't wear diamonds, ever, for all the reasons given in the previous posts. My cubic zirconia ear rings sparkle quite nicely!

Little lies, little compromises -- they add up. How much is your self-image worth to you?

The retail/wholesale/fence value numbers are kinda hard to follow, but it sounds like it's on sale for $1500...

 

[Caroline]

"My parents were poor but dishonest" -- Mark Twain


Coming at this from a COMPLETELY different angle...

What causes your friend or you think this item was stolen, as opposed to all the other items people bring in to sell?

Was it because the seller was unaware of the value of the ring? My mother has a diamond engagement ring and I have NO earthly idea what it's worth.

Was it because the guy was naive enough to set a price before asking the jeweler what he'd take? Any number of people are naive and trusting, which is why your friend can pay peanuts for a $2K ring.

Was it because the seller seemed poor or uneducated? That alone tells you very little -- a lot of honest people are hard up these days and selling what they can to make ends meet.

God FORBID it's because the seller came from a minority group or had some other personal characteristic that led the buyer, by itself, to jump to conclusions.

In short, I don't see any real evidence for this assumption, especially as seller gave his name, license number, etc.

I don't mean this as a challenge, just a gentle rumination as to what assumptions we might be bringing to bear here.

 

[chinaco]

Is he a jeweler or a fence.
Since I do not know the person, I cannot comment on their character directly.... But! buying suspected stolen goods may make him a quick profit... And he may think of himself as a wise small business owner. But he is an opportunist and a criminal by any legal definition. Being 75% legitimate and working with 25% suspected stolen property makes him 100% criminal.

The seller posing as an unwitting fool is a front. Walking in and directly saying "I need to get rid of this pilfered jewelery" would not do for either of the beneficiaries of the theft.

He can claim ignorance... but if it is too good to be true, it likely is not true.

Fences often sell off the stolen property at a low price to move it quickly. Why? Because it is evidence.

The jeweler rationalizing the activity or hide behind "but I didn't know" is a thin veil for a scum bag.

The question you can ask yourself: Do you think the item was stolen? if the answer is yes... I would not buy it. If you think the answer is no... then buy it if you want it.

 

[Cattusbabe]

As a woman, I offer this alternative point of view. I don't wear diamonds, ever, for all the reasons given in the previous posts. My cubic zirconia ear rings sparkle quite nicely!

Little lies, little compromises -- they add up. How much is your self-image worth to you?

I'm with you. My wedding set is a CZ and I love it. Diamonds are just marketing hype IMO. There is better use for the money spent on them.

On the matter at hand. I would not buy the diamond. It may be stolen or it may not have been, either way your friend did jip the guy selling it because he did not purchase it for a fair price. ( so in a sense the rock was ripped off...by your jeweler friend) This would make me suspicious about the deal he is offering me.

 

[ERD50]

I'm with you. My wedding set is a CZ and I love it. Diamonds are just marketing hype IMO. There is better use for the money spent on them.

A little side-jack here, but I wish this would have come up a few months ago. A family member who is not flush with cash just bought an engagement ring. CZ makes a lot of sense to me - can people really tell the difference, w/o getting out a jeweler's loupe?

Heck, my wife's ring is normally encrusted with enough soap scum, etc, that I'm a little torqued that I even spent as much as I did (not a lot, but not chump change either). And who actually looks closely at these things 2 months after the wedding?

What would a 1 caret good quality CZ go for? Ballpark?

Of course, I am an engineer. The only jewelry I own is my wedding ring, which cost less 1/10th my wife's ring. I could easily justify spending that much on stereo equipment

-ERD50

 

[JustMeUC]

CZ makes a lot of sense to me - can people really tell the difference, w/o getting out a jeweler's loupe?

I almost always can spot a cz from several feet away but I was in the trade years ago. However, the real answer is that for most people, no, in the first few months or so anyway. After that most cz's will scratch somewhat if worn daily as a ring. Earrings less so. That is the problem with cz's, they scratch then it becomes cloudy to the eye and obvious that it is not a diamond. You can get a ASHA diamond simulant which will last several years and be a more realistic color (thus much harder to spot as cz) but the cost is higher. I would say if budget is a concern go with moissanite which will last "forever" and to me personally is prettier than a diamond but for a lot less cost.


What would a 1 caret good quality CZ go for? Ballpark? Just the stone? A 1 carat CZ will go for about $10. An Asha about $200 and a moissanite about $350-$400. The thing that most people will notice about the ring is the setting so if you go with a cz or moissanite, get a quality setting and it will be much harder to spot as a sim.

 

[HFWR]

Does a Timex Ironman count as jewelry?

OT, the whole deal smells a bit fishy to me...

 

[Cattusbabe]

A little side-jack here, but I wish this would have come up a few months ago. A family member who is not flush with cash just bought an engagement ring. CZ makes a lot of sense to me - can people really tell the difference, w/o getting out a jeweler's loupe?

Heck, my wife's ring is normally encrusted with enough soap scum, etc, that I'm a little torqued that I even spent as much as I did (not a lot, but not chump change either). And who actually looks closely at these things 2 months after the wedding?

What would a 1 caret good quality CZ go for? Ballpark?

Of course, I am an engineer. The only jewelry I own is my wedding ring, which cost less 1/10th my wife's ring. I could easily justify spending that much on stereo equipment

-ERD50

Just for clarification. I call all fake diamonds CZ. JustMeUC has given you good information and I would follow that. I have a ASHA diamond stimulant that I have worn for 8 years and it looks as beautiful now as the day we bought it. I was a nurse before I retired and I did wear it on the job. As you know nurses wash their constantly and it stood up to that. A little common sense care and a fake will hold up just fine.

Most people really do not know what they are looking at. And your right, most people keep their rings so dirty you cannot see their beauty let alone if they are "real" or not.

A lot of time a stone that is bigger than what you would expect from a person's economic level may be a give away. Since I do not pass my ring off as "real" I do not care. I bought a "killer" cause that just me. Why not. We loved the setting and we were able to get bands for the both of us to match.

 

[CCdaCE]

This reminds me of when I bought the wife's wedding ring. I'm looking at bigger rings marked $4-5,000. Around 1-2 carats. Then he asks how much I'm willing to spend. $2,000 I tell 'em. Magically, he points out a .75 carat, really good looking one. Marked $3500. Then I go to to the mall stores and look at their junk. Marked much higher than the private jewelers stuff. Back to the private jeweler, and suddenly, he's willing to take my $2,000 for the .75 carat ring.

All psychological, behavioral, basing a sale on anchoring, etc.

Then, of course, the appraisal paperwork, "for insurance purposes" says it's worth about double what I paid. Seems like that's just to make you feel good after the sale. All a very mysterious experience. Interesting to see what it'd be worth if I/we tried to sell it.

-CC

 

[ERD50]

CZ makes a lot of sense to me - can people really tell the difference, w/o getting out a jeweler's loupe?

I almost always can spot a cz from several feet away but I was in the trade years ago. However, the real answer is that for most people, no, in the first few months or so anyway. After that most cz's will scratch somewhat if worn daily as a ring. Earrings less so. That is the problem with cz's, they scratch then it becomes cloudy to the eye and obvious that it is not a diamond. You can get a ASHA diamond simulant which will last several years and be a more realistic color (thus much harder to spot as cz) but the cost is higher. I would say if budget is a concern go with moissanite which will last "forever" and to me personally is prettier than a diamond but for a lot less cost.


What would a 1 caret good quality CZ go for? Ballpark? Just the stone? A 1 carat CZ will go for about $10. An Asha about $200 and a moissanite about $350-$400. The thing that most people will notice about the ring is the setting so if you go with a cz or moissanite, get a quality setting and it will be much harder to spot as a sim.

Thanks JustMeUC, I never even heard of moissanite or ASHA. Of course, it's too late for this couple, but I'll tuck that knowledge away. The young lady does work in the medical field, and was concerned about the abuse it might get on the job. So, still something to think about if it ever needed to be replaced, or to even get a 'work' ring versus a 'going out on the town' ring (though no one would ever know the diff, I'm sure).

But it is such an emotional thing for so many people. I joked with DW that when her ring had to go in for repair, that I sold the diamond and had the jeweler put in a 'fake'. I'm pretty sure the cash I'd get for the original wouldn't be worth the 'price' I'd pay if I really did that!

-ERD50

 

[MGYog]

Anyone can buy a diamond. But a rare, undervalued, crime-tinged, karma-impaired blood diamond-- now that's a deal!!

Sounds like you have a master salesman masquerading as your friend.

How the heck do we mortals know a diamond's "fair trade" value? It amazes me how the human brain has no idea what something is worth until we're given a "basis" for "comparison". The book "Predictably Irrational" really opened my eyes to this sales tactic.

Do you really need the diamond? You can't eat it, and it doesn't really change your life, unless you trade it for something you want. All it does is sparkle, and make you worry about it's source, as well as worry the one who may wear it. This is so trivial. You really don't need it to live on.

 

[Rustic23]

I had been telling DW that CZ's look just like diamonds and you really can't tell the difference. We even look at some CZ ear studs she liked. So, I bought real diamond earrings and gave them to her for an anniversary. Reaction.... Oh these are nice.... back in the box..... I said, well DIAMONDS are a girl's best friend! It took several other hints, and something in the box finally caused her to realize they were diamonds and not CZs. The reaction was over the top.

Lesson learned.... Diamonds are a girls best friend, not Cubit Zirconium!

 

[Cattusbabe]

I had been telling DW that CZ's look just like diamonds and you really can't tell the difference. We even look at some CZ ear studs she liked. So, I bought real diamond earrings and gave them to her for an anniversary. Reaction.... Oh these are nice.... back in the box..... I said, well DIAMONDS are a girl's best friend! It took several other hints, and something in the box finally caused her to realize they were diamonds and not CZs. The reaction was over the top.

Lesson learned.... Diamonds are a girls best friend, not Cubit Zirconium!

No way. Dividends are a girls best friend You can keep the carbon.