Doghouse Exit Advice

Thanks for the comments, I'm somewhat relieved to know that integrity is still held in esteem by most, I really was wondering if I'm just past my usefulness and into curmudgeonry.

The DW laid down the law when the DD turned sixteen and said "we" are now consultants and no longer managers in the DD's life. That worked most of the time. I suspect the DW is working on a new set of marching orders as we speak. She is visiting the DD right now.

It's the holidays, I really need to chill and then thaw after New Years.

New Year's resolution, wear large sunglasses at dinners.
 
Zero, you did the right thing. The problem is that your DD and DW feel the need for family unity, even in the face of misconduct by SIL. In time they will see that you are right. I'd just say nothing more about it and let the truth reveal itself.
 
I don't think you did anything wrong at all, I would certainly have reacted the same way you did in such situation. You are entitled to your opinion and should not have to apologize for it to anyone. Just keep that opinion for yourself for your daughter's sake.
 
SIL is a weasel. Watch your back.

Ha
 
If he were not married to my daughter and going to be at my home quite a bit, it would be an easy one. "None of my business". And even then, still not my business.

He also talked about, "getting the friend to send him an email with the other firm's contact info...", so he could show the senior partner who else was involved.

I have to find a way to have a positive view of his actions.
Thanks for the comments.
Ever heard the expression "Agree to disagree?" :cool:

Here comes a very radical dissenting opinion...so get the rotten tomatoes ready.
Disclaimer: I spent 25 years with a very difficult and dysfunctional family, the star beast being my exMIL. The biggest mistake I ever made was to actually give a damn about what she (and they) thought about me or what I did that had no effect on anyone but me.

I personally think the SIL did wrong.
HOWEVER...this is his bogie, not yours. You will not be affected by SIL's actions.
Your daughter married the guy, so...she has to deal with who he is as far as integrity goes. Her bogie.
Point here is...just because in-laws don't agree with something someone else in the family has done or said, it does not mean that camps have to be formed or lines drawn. This type of thing is such a family drama generator. And for what? :nonono:
You have a right to your opinion and others have no right to tell you how to think. Same goes for SIL. No middlemen need to get involved.
Hence, agree to disagree.
 
Wow, sitting here reading my Living Trust and the associated POAs. Whew, gonna be hard to sleep at night till I can get to see my attorney in Jan.

Lots of emails going out today. Gonna change several things.

Wonder if I can just revoke the current Trust and POAs and start from scratch?
 
freebird, I certainly have to consider my reaction and whether I had existing issues that triggered my frown irrespective of his comment. In other words would I still have frowned if he said, "I helped a colleague get a promotion."

So yeah, am I the meddling FIL in his opinion, if he even knows what I think (which I doubt). Unless the DD chose to interpret my frown for him, cause I have not mentioned a word to DD about my feelings. She simply saw me frown.

My DD is far enough away and busy enough with both their careers that we seldom exchange visits (5-6 times a year) and all have been enjoyable and no issues ever in 4 years of marriage for them.

We will see them at Christmas and his parents will be at dinner, so lots of chance for me to mind my own business.
 
It almost seems like the senior partner asked your SIL to check on the rumor and report back. If so, what was the goal of the senior partner? To get the guy to stay? If that is the case, maybe what your SIL or his boss weren't as bad as we may think. Though it is still iffy.

If the intentions of the senior partner were not so noble, or if your SIL did this on his own to curry favor, the firm culture may be cutthroat and your SIL is getting caught up in the culture. In that case having dinner with the boss is sitting down with the devil and he should run away.

As a former senior partner if an associate had told me something like that about a peer to curry favor I would nod my head, ignore the guy or ask him outright "why are you telling me this," and mentally file it away for future reference. I wouldn't invite him over for diner.
 
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I had something like this happen when I was an Executive Director. I took no action as a result of the knowledge shared about the staff member. My take away was that the employee doing the blabbing,my bookkeeper, couldn't be trusted, and needed to go.
 
I don't really know the culture of his firm, it is in another city 4-5 hours away. The SIL made it clear that he had deliberately engaged the colleague in a confidential conversation and then reported it to the senior partner without permission from the colleage. So I think the colleague would certainly feel he was betrayed if he finds out.

I was a mid-level manager in MegaCorp for my last 10 years and I know that any employee walking thru my door to divulge a private conversation with a colleage got the same response everytime. I asked, "Are you OK if I bring them in here while we discuss this." If the answer was NO, I politely said, "then I think what you found out should remain confidential." "There is the door."





It almost seems like the senior partner asked your SIL to check on the rumor and report back. If so, what was the goal of the senior partner? To get the guy to stay? If that is the case, maybe what your SIL or his boss weren't as bad as we may think.

If the intentions of the senior partner were not so noble, or if your SIL did this on his own to curry favor, the firm culture may be cutthroat and your SIL is getting caught up in the culture. In that case having dinner with the boss is sitting down with the devil and he should run away.

As a former senior partner if an associate had told me something like that about a peer to curry favor I would nod my head, ignore the guy or ask him outright "why are you telling me this," and mentally file it away for future reference. I wouldn't invite him over for diner.
 
Time to go to dinner so thanks for the comments all.
 
I don't really know the culture of his firm, it is in another city 4-5 hours away. The SIL made it clear that he had deliberately engaged the colleague in a confidential conversation and then reported it to the senior partner without permission from the colleage. So I think the colleague would certainly feel he was betrayed if he finds out.

I was a mid-level manager in MegaCorp for my last 10 years and I know that any employee walking thru my door to divulge a private conversation with a colleage got the same response everytime. I asked, "Are you OK if I bring them in here while we discuss this." If the answer was NO, I politely said, "then I think what you found out should remain confidential." "There is the door."

I understand . As a former partner in a midsized firm we often knew about each other's business and conversations sometimes just wouldn't be that private or confidential. Again, a culture thing regarding what are people's expectations. I am not saying that I am condoning what your SIL did, but it just might not be as bad as we all tend to think, depending on circumstances and expectations. However, in general I do agree that what associates say between each other are not expected to be reported to partners without permission so everyone's take on this may be correct. I just hate to write your SIL off without really understanding the entire situation.
 
freebird, I certainly have to consider my reaction and whether I had existing issues that triggered my frown irrespective of his comment. In other words would I still have frowned if he said, "I helped a colleague get a promotion."

So yeah, am I the meddling FIL in his opinion, if he even knows what I think (which I doubt). Unless the DD chose to interpret my frown for him, cause I have not mentioned a word to DD about my feelings. She simply saw me frown.

My DD is far enough away and busy enough with both their careers that we seldom exchange visits (5-6 times a year) and all have been enjoyable and no issues ever in 4 years of marriage for them.

We will see them at Christmas and his parents will be at dinner, so lots of chance for me to mind my own business.
Not quite what I meant...inferring "meddling" was not my intent. Sorry if it came across that way. :(
One of my personal strategies in dealing with these circular drama situations was to simply not engage.
Just take a step back and you will be amazed at how quickly the furor can die down. :D

A maxim I have clung to since high school...
"Go placidly among the noise and haste and remember what peace there may be in silence." :flowers:
 
I don't necessarily think the SIL was in the wrong, depending on the circumstances. Maybe that's the lawyer in me though. If the SIL's colleague was a snake, or just an acquaintance and not a friend, maybe it was ok. Maybe the firm would have been hurt bad if the SIL's colleague would have tried to steal clients, client list, etc.

If I was in the SIL's shoes, there would be circumstances under which I would consider speaking to a colleague to determine if he was planning on doing something that would impact the firm adversely. Could be that the SIL's firm is on the brink of failure or big layoffs if they lose more business and SIL is partly looking out for himself and partly for the firm. I don't know more about the situation so it is difficult to say for sure.
 
If someone is negotiating with a rival, it's in the best interests of the firm to keep an eye on him. That is what senior partner was doing, by checking up on a rumor, etc.

The SIL is immature in business operations, and doesn't realize that he has given senior partner a reason to distrust him.

So, he made a mistake. Does that disqualify him as SIL? You should discuss this with him privately, and let him know how it could retard his own career.
 
Hmm, as someone who has gone through a legal responsibility class, and has worked in a large law firm before, I will give my impressions too of the situation, this may help explain why the senior partner reacted positively. This is honestly a scenario straight out of an example question from a legal responsibility class, that illustrates some of the...difficulties of the current firm structure.

Some law firms, particularly the large ones, which are usually in or very near large cities, have something called an "up or out" system. Essentially, only a small number of associates will make it to partner. Many of the associates could be quite capable, and can do the required work necessary of a partner at that firm, but, there can only be so many partners made each year (this essentially is because the partners need to protect their share of the equity). As such, any major non-quality of work reason for denying partnership is considered important in making the decision. Something like an associate considering leaving the firm early is the most important one, it is extremely common, because the associates essentially have to look for other positions because of how precarious the "up or out" system is, but at the same time, any associate that made it up to the level of being considered for partnership, would want to know how loyal they are to the firm. This is why the partner would want to know.

Why the associate would do it, should be obvious, there is nothing complicated about it, and knowing about the "up or out" system doesn't really change the reasoning, it just provides a much greater incentive to do it. He did it so he can improve his chances at the firm, at the expense of one of his fellow associates, who he most likely constantly shares information and advice with on a very regular basis. Outing someone just for the sake of personal gain, rather than some ethical reason, is unethical. It appears that is the case here, because the son certainly did not seem to have any reason for it, other than to impress the senior partner. Perhaps there are other facts missing though.

Not going to comment on the legal questions, but I think you should give the SIL a second chance to prove his integrity, unless there has been other evidence in the past of a serious lack of integrity.
 
By way of background, I am a partner in a law firm.

If a rumour that an associate was leaving reached me, and I valued the associate, I would make inquiries to try and retain the associate. This would include making inquiries of other people in the firm that the person concerned was known to be close to after I had spoken to the valued associate directly. I would need to be carefully not to turn my inquiries into a push factor.

If I did not value the associate, I would simply start looking for a replacement (which is not difficult in the current market).

If people preferred not to tell me anything they knew, I would respect that. How would I view someone who did disclose something? It would depend on circumstances. A senior associate who is being groomed for partnership would already be involved in selected management discussions and staffing is one of the things which we will get senior associates actively involved in. In that context, their involvement would be a natural thing but it would be a very fine line between a potential partner becoming involved in management and being viewed as a snitch who is not to be trusted.

To address the OP's situation, I would recognise that relationships with my family matter far far more than my views on the ethics of my SIL, keep my mouth firmly closed and attempt to move past the issue. Suggest some family events which include the SIL, male bonding session etc

Behind the scenes, if I had concluded that I could not trust SIL, I would change my will, enduring power of attorney etc to ensure that SIL could not get his hands on my money. As an example, instead of leaving money to my daughter, I might leave her with a smaller inheritance and the bulk of the money in trust for grandchildren.
 
Zero, your title says you are "in the doghouse" with your wife and daughter, who are mad at you because your facial expression gave away your disapproval of something your SIL said. Though you haven't described just how the wife and daughter are behaving, "doghouse" implies, to me, an extended period of punishment by people either being nasty, or not speaking to you.

That being said, I guess I'd just up and leave a family that would put me in "the doghouse" for having an expression on my face! (Which, according to you, was quickly covered up with a bite of food, and was not followed with a spoken comment). It seems so ....controlling of them. Naturally, that is just my simplistic reaction and does not constitute a recommendation for you.

No matter how I try, I cannot keep everything I think and feel off my face, and neither can many people I know.

Since you probably don't want to up and leave your family, who seem to have excessively high standards for your face, I guess I can only second Freebird's advice to rise above the fray and let things die down. Best of luck.
 
Thanks very much to all who responded and I appreciate every input. To those with law firm experience, the firm has about 30-40 people listed. Not sure how many senior partners but it has several names in the firm's name.

Lots of good advice and I have high hopes that by next Sunday this is totally forgotten by all parties. I have said nothing except to answer the wife's question about my frown. I'm torn between asking her if I embarrassed her and if so to apologize. And the same with the DD.

And the absolute last thing I would want is a rift with the SIL, I want my daughter to be happy.

I will move on with changing my Trust and POA and do that quietly without intimating the reason for the change. It's my prerogative.

Again thanks.
 
If your SIL is being invited to Thanksgiving dinner at a senior partner's house and driving four to five hours from your house to get there, they must be pretty close. Is that typical?

Perhaps there is nothing sinister in his conversation with the senior partner; perhaps your SIL is already on the fast track ladder and it would be seen as traitorous to his firm if he had NOT told the senior partner what he had heard about the other person leaving.
 
To me the weirdest part of the story is the invitation to the senior partner's house for Thanksgiving dinner.

Zero, the firm name may not have much to do with who are the current senior partners. My old firm's name consists of the names of two deceased lawyers and two retired lawyers. The most senior partners in years at the firm are not even named. The price of a firm more than 100 years old.

Thirty/forty lawyers is a midsized firm and there is a good chance people know quite a bit about each other's business. And the non-lawyer staff likely knows everyone's business. :)
 
SIL was pretty excited to be invited to dinner so I took it as a first invite but not gonna ever press for that info.

I suppose it can be justified many ways, but seeking out someone in the guise of a friend in order to get information for personal gain is not right.

Sorry for the old fashioned me, but it's not right.











If your SIL is being invited to Thanksgiving dinner at a senior partner's house and driving four to five hours from your house to get there, they must be pretty close. Is that typical?

Perhaps there is nothing sinister in his conversation with the senior partner; perhaps your SIL is already on the fast track ladder and it would be seen as traitorous to his firm if he had NOT told the senior partner what he had heard about the other person leaving.
 
I guess there is not really enough information here to judge...nor for you to have judged at the time. As senior management, I would want to know if a "key" person was about to leave so that appropriate action could be taken, whatever the form, such as a retention effort either directed towards the employee or towards the clients, or both. I am kind of feeling that SIL was acting more to protect the firm than to obtain favor in the boss's eyes. I suspect SIL was already trusted by the sr partner and had asked him if he knew anything...you did say that it was already rumoured. In that case, not filling the boss in with what he knew would display a "lack" of integrity, instead of the other way around. The customers, after all, do belong to the firm, not to the employee, since the firm was paying the employee to both gather clients and to cater to their needs.

That's my two cents, fwiw.

R
 
As senior management, I would want to know if a "key" person was about to leave so that appropriate action could be taken, whatever the form, such as a retention effort either directed towards the employee or towards the clients, or both.

Indeed you would want to know, as would I. However, that does not end the matter for me. As a lawyer, one of the bedrock principles of my profession is that you do not betray the confidences of your clients. I know lawyers who have chosen to be jailed for contempt rather than violate that principle. Thus, if back in my law firm days one of my associates had come to me with such information, I would have appreciated having the information (for precisely the reasons you set forth) but I would question whether an associate who can betray the confidences of his colleague could be trusted with the confidences of a client.

(And on the other issue, in my old 400+ lawyer NYC firm, the question would not be why the associate was having Thanksgiving dinner at the partner's house but why they weren't both at the office)
 
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