Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-03-2014, 06:19 PM   #81
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkinwood View Post
These are US citizens. That should count for something. And besides, I wonder if there is any law that could prevent them from coming home if they so wished.
As U.S. citizens, they have a constitutional right to re-enter the United States. As the Supreme Court noted in Saenz v. Rowe, 526 U.S. 489, 498-99 (1999),

The word "travel" is not found in the text of the Constitution. Yet the "constitutional right to travel from one State to another" is firmly embedded in our jurisprudence. United States v. Guest, 383 U. S. 745, 757 (1966). Indeed, as Justice Stewart reminded us in Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U. S. 618 (1969), the right is so important that it is "assertable against private interference as well as governmental action ... a virtually unconditional personal right, guaranteed by the Constitution to us all." Id., at 643 (concurring opinion). In Shapiro, we reviewed the constitutionality of three statutory provisions that denied welfare assistance to residents of Connecticut, the District of Columbia, and Pennsylvania, who had resided within those respective jurisdictions less than one year immediately preceding their applications for assistance. Without pausing to identify the specific source of the right, we began by noting that the Court had long "recognized that the nature of our Federal Union and our constitutional concepts of personal liberty unite to require that all citizens be free to travel throughout the length and breadth of our land uninhibited by statutes, rules, or regulations which unreasonably burden or restrict this movement." Id., at 629. (emphasis added)
__________________

__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is online now  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-03-2014, 06:22 PM   #82
Recycles dryer sheets
Rosie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NorCal
Posts: 360
If I ever manage to have direct contact with the bodily fluids of an infected person, then I'll be worried. Otherwise, notsomuch.

I get a kick out of how today's excuse for a news media goes out of its way to terrify people. Nothing attracts clicks (and, consequently, advertising revenue) like fear -- hence all those stories about the Ebola patients coming into the U. S. of A.

And of course, there's anger too. Yep, news is all about drumming up fear & anger. Keep 'em terrified & outraged, so they'll keep clicking away!!
__________________

__________________
Rosie is offline  
Old 08-03-2014, 06:24 PM   #83
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby View Post
As U.S. citizens, they have a constitutional right to re-enter the United States. As the Supreme Court noted in Saenz v. Rowe, 526 U.S. 489, 498-99 (1999),

The word "travel" is not found in the text of the Constitution. Yet the "constitutional right to travel from one State to another" is firmly embedded in our jurisprudence. United States v. Guest, 383 U. S. 745, 757 (1966). Indeed, as Justice Stewart reminded us in Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U. S. 618 (1969), the right is so important that it is "assertable against private interference as well as governmental action ... a virtually unconditional personal right, guaranteed by the Constitution to us all." Id., at 643 (concurring opinion). In Shapiro, we reviewed the constitutionality of three statutory provisions that denied welfare assistance to residents of Connecticut, the District of Columbia, and Pennsylvania, who had resided within those respective jurisdictions less than one year immediately preceding their applications for assistance. Without pausing to identify the specific source of the right, we began by noting that the Court had long "recognized that the nature of our Federal Union and our constitutional concepts of personal liberty unite to require that all citizens be free to travel throughout the length and breadth of our land uninhibited by statutes, rules, or regulations which unreasonably burden or restrict this movement." Id., at 629. (emphasis added)
And the legal justification for the no-fly list?
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline  
Old 08-03-2014, 06:34 PM   #84
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,929
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
And the legal justification for the no-fly list?
Federal judge declares government no-fly list rules unconstitutional - LA Times

http://media.oregonlive.com/pacific-...FlyOpinion.pdf

It seems that there isn't a compelling legal justification.
__________________
M Paquette is offline  
Old 08-03-2014, 06:35 PM   #85
Moderator Emeritus
Rich_by_the_Bay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 8,827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat View Post
I am wondering if the virus will still be communicable after the patient recovers.
Don't know, but if it follows the path of similar viruses, the acute treatment kills the virus and the patient remains immune and not contagious. But I wouldn't speculate re: Ebola. Too many unknowns.
__________________
Rich
San Francisco Area
ESR'd March 2010. FIRE'd January 2011.

As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
Rich_by_the_Bay is offline  
Old 08-03-2014, 06:45 PM   #86
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
And the legal justification for the no-fly list?
It may yet be found unconstitutional as applied to American citizens. See the attached order from a District Court in the 4th Circuit that was issued in January in the case of Gulet Mohamed v. Holder. Read pages 13-19 and 25-28 for a discussion of the right to enter the US and the no-fly list. http://www.cair.com/images/pdf/Gulet-Order.pdf

One thing that is absolutely certain is that US citizens have a right to enter the US once at a port of entry. The question is whether they can be barred from using commercial airlines to get to a US port of entry.
__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is online now  
Old 08-03-2014, 07:44 PM   #87
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ls99's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,792
Reading the the entire order was most informative. Especially the court's noting the circular argument on page18 first paragraph's, last two lines.

On page 26 the court shows that a US citizen has a right to enter the United states at any time of their liking.
__________________
There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
ls99 is offline  
Old 08-03-2014, 09:02 PM   #88
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby View Post
One thing that is absolutely certain is that US citizens have a right to enter the US once at a port of entry. The question is whether they can be barred from using commercial airlines to get to a US port of entry.
The workaround might be simple if the no-fly list is found to be unconstitutional: The US Government doesn't bar those on the list from air travel, but they make the list available to the airlines. Then, the airlines can make an informed decision regarding their choice of passengers. I don't think there's any civil rights issue (public accommodation, etc, etc), since they would be discriminating based on a non-protected criteria.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline  
Old 08-04-2014, 12:00 PM   #89
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
walkinwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,676
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Easy, just declare them to be terrorists and put them on the no fly list. Apparently that can be done for any reason, at any time, without any way to appeal it.
My point was that, being US citizens, we should bring them home, not let them fend for themselves. Ebola has been around since the 70s and while there is no cure, there is a lot of knowledge on transmission & containment. I don't, for a moment, believe that we're at risk in this specific situation. I think our medical professionals will be able to learn a lot from this. btw, there have been other survivors of Ebola that have returned to the US in the past.

I think there is a real risk of Ebola entering the US through normal travel channels but there's no practical solution to that.
__________________
walkinwood is offline  
Old 08-04-2014, 12:20 PM   #90
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkinwood View Post
I think there is a real risk of Ebola entering the US through normal travel channels but there's no practical solution to that.
A real good start would be closing the order to all travelers from the affected countries and anyone with a passport from the region.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline  
Old 08-04-2014, 02:24 PM   #91
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Wow. I have some really high quality florida real estate you guys might want to consider buying...
+1. There is a long and wise presumption that the group takes precedence over a single individual in matters of infectious disease. It is what quarantine practice is based on.

The Doc elected to go to an infected area of Ebola epidemic. We did not have a say in his decision to go, but now we are being asked to underwrite that decision by accepting unknown risks.

Of course America is famous for really stupid decisions, so I guess there is no reason why we should break that string now.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 08-04-2014, 02:26 PM   #92
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
+1. There is a long and wise presumption that the group takes precedence over a single individual in matters of infectious disease. It is what quarantine practice is based on.

The Doc elected to go to an infected area of Ebola epidemic. We did not have a say in his decision to go, but now we are being asked to underwrite that decision by accepting unknown risks.

Of course America is famous for really stupid decisions, so I guess there is no reason why we should break that string now.

Ha
Can a country or territory be quarantined?
__________________
MichaelB is offline  
Old 08-04-2014, 02:46 PM   #93
Full time employment: Posting here.
MuirWannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 670
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
+1. There is a long and wise presumption that the group takes precedence over a single individual in matters of infectious disease. It is what quarantine practice is based on.
Ha
Can't help but think of Spock. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

However, I think in this case we will be okay. I'm glad the good doctor is getting the best help possible. And it comes from that crappy US healthcare system no less.
__________________
“Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt.” John Muir
MuirWannabe is offline  
Old 08-04-2014, 03:11 PM   #94
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
We did not have a say in his decision to go, but now we are being asked to underwrite that decision by accepting unknown risks.
This is where I differ. The risk is known, and people who made the decision thought that it can be managed. It's not like we know nothing about it and people are starting to drop like flies. Just think of all the goods & people coming in and out of America via plane, ship, land every day. There are risks there, too. In fact, those risks are truly unknown. Who knows? One of those containers from Middle East, China, Russia can contain a portable nuclear bomb that can go off in New York City. How about those migrating birds? That can carry a new and deadly bird flu that can wipe out half of California. If you don't want to take any risks, then you really need to seal off America completely and live in total isolation. Good luck with that.
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is online now  
Old 08-04-2014, 04:45 PM   #95
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
Can a country or territory be quarantined?
Effectively, yes. An American cannot legally travel to many counties. This is for political health, not physical health. Anyhow, as we know our President has a "phone and a pen", so no worries.

Interesting that veterinary health seems to take precedence over human health, as many countries enforce animal quarantines on entering their countries.

Back in the last big immigration to US before our current one, a cough got a potential immigrant right back onto the ship.

Anyway, this is irrelevant to the current situation. The sick doctor could not have got himself here, we brought him here.

Another interesting way to view this is by comparison to the draft, which of course was discontinued because there is no longer any gain from untrained cannon fodder. So we have a sick America doctor, who might possibly be endangering US health if he comes here. Against this risk to US public, great or small, we have a considerable risk to the doctor from his infection, which we assume we can offer treatment chances of recovery from here. But let us remember, no one drafted him and sent him there, he chose to go for whatever personal, professional, religious or other types of gain he was seeking by volunteering.

How about the former risks to draftees, who started out in good health and too often came home maimed or dead. And at least the US supposedly gained from their sacrifice. I am not sure what gain Americans get from the volunteer workers who go abroad. They all have their various reasons, but I think there is very little known evidence that they help the position of Americans in general.

Not an easy problem, and I do not feel that it is a no-brainer that he or the nurse who is yet to come have been handled optimally.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 08-04-2014, 05:35 PM   #96
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,449
No one said this is easy. It is a choice between risky options. Not to deal with Ebola will not make it go away and travel restrictions will not keep it from touching US soil. We cannot hide from this disease.

We have the facilities, resources, knowledge and training to treat the infected individuals, deal with the disease, and set the example for how to act, and react, to this health crisis. Should we ignore it instead, and wait until it is a greater threat? Dealing with this on US shores is risky, but is it riskier than hoping it will get better on its own or will be less of a risk five years from now?

Why a person went abroad isn’t the issue. There is no “no risk” scenario here and veterinary rules don’t apply. If we need to rely on trained professionals carefully following protocol to identify, handle, and contain the spread of this, I’ll side with CDC over TSA 100% of the time.
__________________
MichaelB is offline  
Old 08-04-2014, 05:38 PM   #97
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
No one said this is easy. It is a choice between risky options. Not to deal with Ebola will not make it go away and travel restrictions will not keep it from touching US soil. We cannot hide from this disease.
This is so far from what I said. And so far from a fair summary of the issues.

But, hey, you are a mod, so ok boss.
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 08-04-2014, 05:41 PM   #98
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
This is so far from what I said. And so far from a fair summary of the issues.

But, hey, you are a mod, so ok boss.
Nothing to do with being a moderator, but it helps, I'll refrain from further posts in this thread
__________________
MichaelB is offline  
Old 08-04-2014, 06:04 PM   #99
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ls99's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,792
Seems much agitation over the doc with ebola back in the US. Meanwhile back of (at) the ranch, ahem, Texas border thousands are pouring over the border with slight if any difficulty carrying all sorts of nasty diseases, surely ebola is one of them.

Just today a person is isolated in NYC being tested for ebola.
Mount Sinai patient who traveled to West Africa tested for Ebola virus | 7online.com
Seems things are a bit more complicated than two known carriers of ebola who are citizens are back, more persons will surely be here in a short time.

Might as well have the US medical system figure out how to treat the problem. The sooner the better.

Edit add: maintaining fear of what if, is too late. Clear and effective thinking and doing will save the day.
__________________
There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
ls99 is offline  
Old 08-04-2014, 06:08 PM   #100
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,469
Quote:
Originally Posted by ls99 View Post
Seems much agitation over the doc with ebola back in the US. Meanwhile back of (at) the ranch, ahem, Texas border thousands are pouring over the border with slight if any difficulty carrying all sorts of nasty diseases, surely ebola is one of them.

Just today a person is isolated in NYC being tested for ebola.
Mount Sinai patient who traveled to West Africa tested for Ebola virus | 7online.com
Seems things are a bit more complicated than two known carriers of ebola who are citizens are back, more persons will surely be here in a short time.

Might as well have the US medical system figure out how to treat the problem. The sooner the better.
One thing I am NOT worried about living on the Mexican border, is someone walking across with the Ebola virus.
__________________

__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:43 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.