Emergency Power

[travelover]

I have a Honda 2kw generator that I bought to use when we go camping but it also serves as a backup for the house. I have a connection for it outside and it powers up my entire distribution panel using a simple generator interlock kit. That way I can power up any load I want without having to have an expensive transfer switch installed which would only be able to supply certain selected loads.

We've been without power numerous times for many days and I can keep the freezer and fridge cold, lights, heat, a/c etc. Just have to rotate the loads. The only thing I can't power up is my well pump but we've always been able to work around that limitation.

I thought the Honda 2000 was only 110 volts. How did you power both sides of the panel?

 

[SteveNU]

I made a special cord for the generator with the hot leg jumpered to feed both hot legs on a L14-30P connector. Then I open the main breaker and all the breakers on the panel and operate the interlock to close the generator supply. Then you keep any 240 load breakers open and close the breakers you want to energize the loads.

 

[ERD50]

I made a special cord for the generator with the hot leg jumpered to feed both hot legs on a L14-30P connector. Then I open the main breaker and all the breakers on the panel and operate the interlock to close the generator supply. Then you keep any 240 load breakers open and close the breakers you want to energize the loads.

You are probably aware of this, but in the normal split-phase configuration, a single neutral line is often shared between two circuits of opposite phase. If both circuits are at max, the neutral line current cancels out to (near) zero. The ma the neutral will see is when one branch is at 15 A, and the other is at zero A (no offsetting out-of-phase current.

The way you have converted to single phase means you could overload the neutral - two 15 A branches could put 30 A on that neutral designed for 15 A max. But if you are careful, and no one else is mucking with things, it can be managed. But it is a bit risky.

-ERD50

 

[SteveNU]

You are probably aware of this, but in the normal split-phase configuration, a single neutral line is often shared between two circuits of opposite phase. If both circuits are at max, the neutral line current cancels out to (near) zero. The ma the neutral will see is when one branch is at 15 A, and the other is at zero A (no offsetting out-of-phase current.

The way you have converted to single phase means you could overload the neutral - two 15 A branches could put 30 A on that neutral designed for 15 A max. But if you are careful, and no one else is mucking with things, it can be managed. But it is a bit risky.

-ERD50

This is only specific to the generator I'm using now which has a Max of about 13 amps or so. If I upgraded to a bigger gen it would have a 220 outlet and would use a normal configuration on the plug to supply the 30 amp feed to the panel.

 

[ERD50]

This is only specific to the generator I'm using now which has a Max of about 13 amps or so. If I upgraded to a bigger gen it would have a 220 outlet and would use a normal configuration on the plug to supply the 30 amp feed to the panel.

Ahh, yes - at 13 A max, no chance of overtaxing a 15 A rated circuit.
Good.

-ERD50

 

[samclem]

We lose power quite often. . . . The only critical equipment we have is the fridge/freezer. It will keep stuff frozen/cold for several hours if we don't open it. We have LED flashlights/lanterns for light and also battery powered radios. . . .
At one time I thought I could charge batteries with the car and transport them back to the apartment. I've kind of given up on that idea as impractical. . . ."Routine" high winds knock power out all the time. Our "grid" is not very robust either as we found out when the Island lost power.

Some thoughts, since it sounds like power outages are fairly common for you:
-- If you've got room in your freezer, fill it with water/ice jugs. It will save money year-round, and can help keep your fridge/freezer cold a lot longer when the power goes out.
-- Consider a small chest freezer as an add-on. They are cheap, don't use much electricity, and when you open the lid the cool stays inside. Freeze some ijugs in there, when the power goes out you can move many of them to your main fridge/feeezer, and put the most expensive/perishable stuff from your fridge/freezer into the chest freezer.
Put one frozen jug in a high-quality ice chest along with any food you'll need for the next few days, and don't open the fridge or freezer at all during that time. If you want a project while the power is out, keep 2 sheets of cheap EPS "beadboard" foam insulation on hand along with a roll of packing tape and a knife and use it to box-in your whole fridge (except the bottom). If you use the 2" stuff, it will about double the R-value of your fridge, plus sealing all the "bridges" at the door seals, etc. It will stay cold a much longer time.
-- Is your car parked within extension cord distance of your condo? If so, maybe you could buy an inverter to run the freezer from your car for an hour or two per day, that would help your food last a lot longer. You could also use other tools/appliances that need 110V for short periods. It might be a bit tight--you'd need an inverter that could handle the brief starting current of a refrigerator (often about 11 amps, which is about 1200 watts) and a car alternator that will, with maybe some temporary help from the battery, provide enough wattage to run the fridge/freezer.

-- Is there room for even one 100W solar panel (on a balcony/window, etc. 47" x 21" )? If so, a setup like this (https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Watts-Volts-Monocrystalline-Starter/dp/B00BFCNFRM--see the "people also buy" recommendation--includes the panel/controller, 400W inverter, 35AH 12V battery) runs less than $300. You could charge all your flashlights/phones/laptop/lanterns every day, and have enough juice to run a small fan or two to make things more bearable, esp at night.

 

[meierlde]

You are probably aware of this, but in the normal split-phase configuration, a single neutral line is often shared between two circuits of opposite phase. If both circuits are at max, the neutral line current cancels out to (near) zero. The ma the neutral will see is when one branch is at 15 A, and the other is at zero A (no offsetting out-of-phase current.

The way you have converted to single phase means you could overload the neutral - two 15 A branches could put 30 A on that neutral designed for 15 A max. But if you are careful, and no one else is mucking with things, it can be managed. But it is a bit risky.

-ERD50

The combined neutral would not be on a house wired with modern 12/2 or 14/2. All of the circuits have to run to the panel and the neutral bar inside it. It may be that this was done on knob and tube wiring.

 

[ERD50]

The combined neutral would not be on a house wired with modern 12/2 or 14/2. All of the circuits have to run to the panel and the neutral bar inside it. It may be that this was done on knob and tube wiring.

I'll double check, but I'm pretty sure it is standard to share a neutral between the two phases with modern wiring. It sure looks like that's how my house was done (built in 1986 - knob and tube went out in the 1920's around here). And it makes sense you can't have more than 15 A on that neutral, well, at least with a PF 1.0 load.

OK, lots of sources seem to back me up, this one is pretty 'readable':

http://www.samlexamerica.com/suppor...ingleSplitPhaseandMultiWireBranchCircuits.pdf

As explained above, a Multi-wire Branch Circuit operates normally and safely only when the two separate 120 VAC Branch Circuits are fed from the 2 split phases L1 (Phase A, Red wire) and L2 (Phase B, Black wire) that are 180 degrees apart and which results in a lower current flow in the single common Neutral (this current will be = the difference in the currents in the two individual Split Phase Branch Circuits).

-ERD50

 

[rayinpenn]

Saw a special on an ice storm they had in Canada a few years back... several people froze to death. No power no boiler. Scared the heck out of me.
1. 10,000 surge generator
2. Had an inlet wired
3. My Yotul gas stoves heat the house without house power.

I can deal with no hot water ...no heat I can't deal with.

 

[SteveNU]

Saw a special on an ice storm they had in Canada a few years back... several people froze to death. No power no boiler. Scared the heck out of me.
1. 10,000 surge generator
2. Had an inlet wired
3. My Yotul gas stoves heat the house without house power.

I can deal with no hot water ...no heat I can't deal with.

No power in warm weather is an inconvenience. No power in the middle of winter when it's below freezing can be a disaster!

 

[Walt34]

No power in warm weather is an inconvenience. No power in the middle of winter when it's below freezing can be a disaster!

Indeed. We could probably go to a hotel if we had to, but would rather stay home and use the generator. I bought it after an ice storm in 1999 left us without power for four days. We got through it only because the weather warmed up considerably afterward. The area we lived in then was built up in the late 1959 and all the power lines are in the trees so they came down in storms often. No longer made, the generator is a Honda Superquiet, 4k watts continuous and is in a foam-lined cabinet with what looks like a small automobile muffler, they claim 65 db. It is very quiet. I used it often there, but since we moved to WV he haven't used it at all since all the power lines are underground and more reliable. But I know that if I sold it we'd need it the next day, that's just how those things work.

Back then I hooked it to the house with some gizmo rented from the power company that isolated it from the power lines, and I'd read about load shedding so I knew to keep most stuff off. I knew we were going to move when I retired so that was the cheaper option than having a transfer switch put in. DW was on my case a little about spending $2,500 on a generator but the FIRST DAY I had everything working she got home from work a bit after dark and I said "Did you notice anything unusual?"

Her: "No."

Me: "Did you notice that this is the only house on the block that has lights on?"

Don't ya just love vindication?

 

[Morricol61]

No power in warm weather is an inconvenience. No power in the middle of winter when it's below freezing can be a disaster!

That's the joy of living in a warm climate, no fear of freezing to death. I hate the cold.

 

[meierlde]

I'll double check, but I'm pretty sure it is standard to share a neutral between the two phases with modern wiring. It sure looks like that's how my house was done (built in 1986 - knob and tube went out in the 1920's around here). And it makes sense you can't have more than 15 A on that neutral, well, at least with a PF 1.0 load.

OK, lots of sources seem to back me up, this one is pretty 'readable':

http://www.samlexamerica.com/suppor...ingleSplitPhaseandMultiWireBranchCircuits.pdf



-ERD50

Apparently if this circuit is wired properly it needs to be on a 2 pole breaker, not two one pole breakers, So that power is cut off to the entire circuit with one operation. Apparently also used to put 110 plugs on 220 volt circuits.

 

[Koolau]

Some thoughts, since it sounds like power outages are fairly common for you:
-- If you've got room in your freezer, fill it with water/ice jugs. It will save money year-round, and can help keep your fridge/freezer cold a lot longer when the power goes out.
-- Consider a small chest freezer as an add-on. They are cheap, don't use much electricity, and when you open the lid the cool stays inside. Freeze some ijugs in there, when the power goes out you can move many of them to your main fridge/feeezer, and put the most expensive/perishable stuff from your fridge/freezer into the chest freezer.
Put one frozen jug in a high-quality ice chest along with any food you'll need for the next few days, and don't open the fridge or freezer at all during that time. If you want a project while the power is out, keep 2 sheets of cheap EPS "beadboard" foam insulation on hand along with a roll of packing tape and a knife and use it to box-in your whole fridge (except the bottom). If you use the 2" stuff, it will about double the R-value of your fridge, plus sealing all the "bridges" at the door seals, etc. It will stay cold a much longer time.
-- Is your car parked within extension cord distance of your condo? If so, maybe you could buy an inverter to run the freezer from your car for an hour or two per day, that would help your food last a lot longer. You could also use other tools/appliances that need 110V for short periods. It might be a bit tight--you'd need an inverter that could handle the brief starting current of a refrigerator (often about 11 amps, which is about 1200 watts) and a car alternator that will, with maybe some temporary help from the battery, provide enough wattage to run the fridge/freezer.

-- Is there room for even one 100W solar panel (on a balcony/window, etc. 47" x 21" )? If so, a setup like this (https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Watts-Volts-Monocrystalline-Starter/dp/B00BFCNFRM--see the "people also buy" recommendation--includes the panel/controller, 400W inverter, 35AH 12V battery) runs less than $300. You could charge all your flashlights/phones/laptop/lanterns every day, and have enough juice to run a small fan or two to make things more bearable, esp at night.

Thanks, this sounds like an excellent comprehensive plan. I will look into the specifics. I have actually done a small part of it. I do have a cooler and frozen "bricks" to store food - dry run was good for over 24 hours. The car is "out" as it's in the parking structure. As mentioned, I had thought about using it to charge batteries, but I think that would be impractical for running the freezer. Much aloha.

 

[davismills]

One place to look is on the RV forums. Many of those folks use solar panels and can stay "off the grid" for weeks or even months at a time. They would likely know how to do what you're looking for.

Here's a link to a great forum. Going Green - iRV2 Forums

 

[NW-Bound]

One place to look is on the RV forums. Many of those folks use solar panels and can stay "off the grid" for weeks or even months at a time. They would likely know how to do what you're looking for.

Forgot to add to this.

Yes, some full-time RV'ers invest around $10K to have as many solar panels as possible on their large motorhome, plus enough lithium-ion batteries to store all that power. Some have an inverter large enough to run the roof-mounted AC. But it is not as clean as you think.

1) They still have to use propane for heating, and for hot water. Some use induction cooktops for cooking, and that works well.

2) Some use a residential electric fridge instead of the traditional propane-heated ammonia-absorption type. They reported that in the winter, they ran out of power when it stayed cloudy for a couple of days.

3) Their inverter may be powerful enough to run just 1 of the 2 roof-mounted ACs, but it has to drain the batteries to supplement the output of the solar panels, which was not enough even in midday (RV roof area is limited). And so, the run time was limited to a few hours before the batteries got drained, and they did that only as an experiment.

So, it is not easy to be 100% energy independent, even in a small home like an RV, if you want all the regular comfort.