Engineers and Computer Professionals- Help Please!

[jIMOh]

There's no need for a double major or even a minor in management. He can take graduate courses later if he desires. However, Project Management courses will provide him valuable skills in managing small or large projects that he'll be able to apply early in his career. Sadly, many managers don't even have good project management skills. There is a project management certification he can get after he gets some work experience to go along with it, and is useful no matter what direction his career takes.

My experience is that good engineers get promoted to project management based on the projects they do.

Good engineers also get promoted to manage people if they were successful on the projects they worked on.

Of the 35 engineers in my fraternity, only 7 are still doing only pure engineering work, the rest are managing people or projects. 15-20 years later. 5 of those which are still doing project work have a programming flavor to their background.

 

[Katsmeow]

Also, management perse may not be the best fit for someone that is more introverted. Many companies make the mistake of promoting strong technical individual contributors into management roles where they fail miserably.

One thing I recommend to the OP (and to others) is for the OP's son to do aptitude testing with Johnson O'Connor if it has a location reasonably nearby.

We did this last spring with our son (19) and our daughter (16) and it really made a big difference with both of them. There was a lot of really valuable information, but one of the things addressed was this issue.

My son was strongly advised to do STEM type fields, but in particular he was recommended to develop his technical expertise and then be the person with technical knowledge who manages other people. (He has some interest in management, was even a business major for awhile so took a few business related courses).

On the other hand, my daughter was steered away from those types of management roles. She tested as being more the type to be the "expert" and to work on her own rather than managing others.

In both cases, we felt the advice was very accurate.

 

[panacea]

One thing I recommend to the OP (and to others) is for the OP's son to do aptitude testing with Johnson O'Connor if it has a location reasonably nearby.

We did this last spring with our son (19) and our daughter (16) and it really made a big difference with both of them. There was a lot of really valuable information, but one of the things addressed was this issue.

My son was strongly advised to do STEM type fields, but in particular he was recommended to develop his technical expertise and then be the person with technical knowledge who manages other people. (He has some interest in management, was even a business major for awhile so took a few business related courses).

On the other hand, my daughter was steered away from those types of management roles. She tested as being more the type to be the "expert" and to work on her own rather than managing others.

In both cases, we felt the advice was very accurate.

That's very interesting. Looks like the closest location to us is a couple of hours away. I wonder if there's another company that's provides this same kind of service.

 

[Katsmeow]

That's very interesting. Looks like the closest location to us is a couple of hours away. I wonder if there's another company that's provides this same kind of service.

A lot of the companies that do "aptitude testing" really don't do aptitude testing. They do questionnaires about people's interests. That is entirely different from doing aptitude testing which tests what your actual aptitudes are. The philosophy of Johnson O'Connor is that far too many people just consider their interests and don't consider what they are good at. These position is that people are unlikely to be happy doing work that they aren't good at.

There is a nice brochure on the Johnson O'Connor website talking about it.

 

[Al in Ohio]

Show me an engineer who isn't an introvert and I'll show you a pink elephant.


If he has the brains to be an engineer but he rather be a CS major you better let him make his own decision because he has to make his own bed and do what he has passion for. BUT - He'll be trading lots more income in a field starved for qualified graduates for a field that's flooded with gaming geek wannabes. Look on the bright side, you will probably finally get to know him while he spends another decade in your basement.

That's the exact path and choice my nephew took. He's almost 30 and still living with mom in a low paying code writing job. Not to mention he missed out on the satisfaction of solving real problems and creating stuff that matters to people, which is what engineering is all about. But hey, If he can design a better world of Warcraft soon, I'm all for it!

While in some Engineering Colleges the CS program is administered under the school of engineering, the CS program is a lot different than a program designed for programming or writing code for video games. Video game design is also different and is now often offered by the college of Journalism. Just keep in mind, getting a BS in CS even while sometimes as a school Administered by the engineering college does not yield an accredited BS in engineering. One with a CS degree as such will not be an engineer nor will be able to sit for his / her professional engineers exam or call themselves an engineer.

I highly recommend the "engineer for a day" HS program if you have one locally and then trying to experience something similar on the video game developers side too.

 

[Al in Ohio]

In the engineering world, no worthwhile internships are ever "unpaid." I think most engineers look at the whole "unpaid intership spectacle" and wonder why anyone would do these. If they don't think you are worth paying, why would they give you something worthwhile to do?

Ditto Engineers are too smart to ever work at an unpaid internship. That's just crazy talk. I have never heard of an unpaid internship in the US in the engineering field.

Another piece of advice is to have DS take a math/ science PSAT. Good engineering candidates will have PSAT or SAT scores in both math and science between 600-700 or higher or ACTs in math AND science in the range of 28 and higher. Hitting 30 or better in science would be a plus.

 

[Katsmeow]

Show me an engineer who isn't an introvert and I'll show you a pink elephant.


If he has the brains to be an engineer but he rather be a CS major you better let him make his own decision because he has to make his own bed and do what he has passion for. BUT - He'll be trading lots more income in a field starved for qualified graduates for a field that's flooded with gaming geek wannabes. Look on the bright side, you will probably finally get to know him while he spends another decade in your basement.

These seem like contradictory positions. That is, what if someone has the ability to be an engineer but is an extrovert? My son is a prime example. He has the ability to be an engineer. In fact, when he did Johnson O'Connor aptitude testing it was the top on his list because of his strong structural visualization score (Johnson O'Connor is of the opinion that even if you are good at math and science you will struggle as an engineer if you lack good structural visualization which is the ability to think in three dimensions).

But, my son didn't have a strong interest in engineering, but did have a strong interest in CS (he actually viewed engineering as his fallback if he found that he didn't actually like CS once he started the program).

 

[Dash man]

These seem like contradictory positions. That is, what if someone has the ability to be an engineer but is an extrovert? My son is a prime example. He has the ability to be an engineer. In fact, when he did Johnson O'Connor aptitude testing it was the top on his list because of his strong structural visualization score (Johnson O'Connor is of the opinion that even if you are good at math and science you will struggle as an engineer if you lack good structural visualization which is the ability to think in three dimensions). But, my son didn't have a strong interest in engineering, but did have a strong interest in CS (he actually viewed engineering as his fallback if he found that he didn't actually like CS once he started the program).

There are too many different specialties in engineering to make generalizations. Outstanding math skill is the common thread among the engineering professions. A degree in Electrical Engineering or Computer Engineering would give him more flexibility to make career changes than a degree in Computer Science. Most software engineers (programmers) that I've worked with over the years get tired of programming after a while and look for a major change.
I don't think there are any more introverts or extroverts in engineering than in the normal population, but engineers do think differently than most people and may lack some social skills other folks have.

 

[NH Hiker]

If he has the brains to be an engineer but he rather be a CS major you better let him make his own decision because he has to make his own bed and do what he has passion for. BUT - He'll be trading lots more income in a field starved for qualified graduates for a field that's flooded with gaming geek wannabes. Look on the bright side, you will probably finally get to know him while he spends another decade in your basement.

The College Degrees With The Highest Starting Salaries - Forbes

CS degrees are right up there with engineering. There are tons of well paid software engineers.

 

[timwalsh300]

If he has the brains to be an engineer but he rather be a CS major you better let him make his own decision because he has to make his own bed and do what he has passion for. BUT - He'll be trading lots more income in a field starved for qualified graduates for a field that's flooded with gaming geek wannabes. Look on the bright side, you will probably finally get to know him while he spends another decade in your basement.

Wow, this outlook is certainly at odds with everything I've seen/heard elsewhere. When did things change? My graduating CS class was tiny (the program was hardly "flooded") and everyone lined up full-time employment or at least a paid internship before the end of our senior year. It seems that every list of "highest paid undergraduate majors" ranks CS among the top five (all the others being engineering, with petroleum engineering on top).

Sorry your nephew has had such a tough time, but I also know a kid with a mechanical engineering degree in a similar situation four years after college. Individual mileage may vary, I guess.

Tim

 

[panacea]

Many thanks again for all the good posts. Lots for DS to consider! In looking at some of the UW programs, I've come across a couple of dual degree programs, where you can obtain a CS degree and a Masters in Software engineering in 5 years. Any thoughts on this? Not sure how this would work considering it seems to take many students close to 5 years to get their B.S.

 

[timwalsh300]

My school actually had a four-year BA/MA program. I didn't go down that path, but it could be a tremendous opportunity for some. You basically had to come in with some AP credit, take summer courses, and forget about taking electives outside of CS. I think you also had to maintain a 3.5+ GPA (no trivial matter at an institution wary of any grade inflation). I chose a less focused path, almost obtaining a minor in a foreign language, and doing a variety of things with my summer breaks. Ideally, my employer will send me to get a master's at some point.

Tim

 

[Hermit]

Many thanks again for all the good posts. Lots for DS to consider! In looking at some of the UW programs, I've come across a couple of dual degree programs, where you can obtain a CS degree and a Masters in Software engineering in 5 years. Any thoughts on this? Not sure how this would work considering it seems to take many students close to 5 years to get their B.S.

5 years I don't think my son will make it in 6. His problems are associated with transferring from a liberal arts college after two years into the engineering department in computer science at a major state engineering university. I'm willing to put up with more semesters because with the wage potential I may be able to live in his basement when he is 30!

 

[clifp]

Wow, this outlook is certainly at odds with everything I've seen/heard elsewhere. When did things change? My graduating CS class was tiny (the program was hardly "flooded") and everyone lined up full-time employment or at least a paid internship before the end of our senior year. It seems that every list of "highest paid undergraduate majors" ranks CS among the top five (all the others being engineering, with petroleum engineering on top).

Sorry your nephew has had such a tough time, but I also know a kid with a mechanical engineering degree in a similar situation four years after college. Individual mileage may vary, I guess.

Tim

I think what Al is saying is game business is much different than the rest of the market for computer scientist. As you say job prospect for CS major are good and at least in Silicon Valley, you can get stock options which can if not make you rich at least greatly accelerate your path to early retirement.

But because programming games is considered fun by lots of folks the supply of game programmer exceeds the demand. As rule game programmer earn significantly less money than programmers with comparable experience in other fields, and end up working in crunch mode for extended periods of time (many months not weeks).

When I was an my early 30s I had lunch with the editor of the top game magazine, his top writer, and a well respected and successful programmer/game designer. I talked about how it really wanted to get into the game business, I'd even be willing to start writing code again. The editor told me that I would be an absolute idiot to leave Intel to join a game company, the other two agree completely. I protested and they went over a litany of reasons why I would stupid to go into the game biz. It was hard to see my dream crushed, but it was excellent advice. Now part of it was because I had pretty fun job at Intel, but most of it was generic to the business. By all accounts the game business is to programmers, what the modeling business is to pretty girls, it looks a hell of lot more fun and glamorous than it really is.

 

[Al in Ohio]

In the Midwest ( east coast NYC or west coast pay is higher) a mech eng starting salary is between $65-$70k coming out of school. Not sure how that compares with a CS grad salary out of school. I think most of those jobs are probably in a higher COL area like Silicon Valley.

 

[nphx]

My career is in the elearning space... "serious games" where interactivity or simulations train people on operations, troubleshooting or other skills. We would always welcome intern/staff with programming or mobile development skills. Project cycles are weeks to a few months so there is much opportunity to build experience.

 

[meekie]

Software Engineering or general CS degree is great. If he's also interested in art, he should definitely pursue that as well, because most programmers don't know much about art, but art is very important in video game or application design.
I would really encourage him to take a programming or computer art class at a local community college in the spring to start learning stuff. iPhone app and game design is really hot right now, and he doesn't have to be a college grad to publish something. Even a small app that doesn't sell well will look really good on his resume, and if he can say he did the programming and the art, it would be even better.
I'll also echo that the video game companies have so many people that want to work for them that they pay worse, have horrible hours, and treat their employees badly. DH worked for one and it was the worst job he had. And his company just laid off the last of the people he knew there, there's been a lot of shrinkage in certain gaming fields.
But he also has a friend that quit a 6 figure job to run his iPhone game company full-time. And even DH makes $20-$40 a month for a couple of quick apps he wrote.

Get some general knowledge, follow his interests, and start playing with it all now.