Female plumber - finally, in 2019?!

[Chuckanut]

Unfortunately, the fear of false accusations probably deters a lot of very qualified men from teaching and other jobs that puts them in close contact with underage females. It only takes is one upset or angry girl to make a false accusation that destroys someone's career and reputation. Why would anyone risk it?

Years ago, my daughter's elementary school had one, just 1!, male teacher. I think it was 4th grade. Let's call him Mr. Cool since he drove a very nice, very old Porsche he had fixed up himself.

Large numbers of single moms requested him as the teacher for their son so the boy could be exposed to a good male role model. And, the pricipal, who did not want parents complaining to the Superintenden'ts Office, made exceptions to how the children were supposed to be divided into the classes.

After a few years the word was out: The principal found herself getting numerous requests to NOT put children in Mr. Cool's class because it was full of misbehaving, troubled boys. The principal, who had tried to give parents what they wanted, ended setting up the children for failure, and putting Mr. Cool in to a very unfair and stressful environment. The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again.

 

[pdxgal]

Here in Portland there's an organization (non-profit?) aimed specifically at getting women into the trades, and there have been several articles in local papers about how more women are doing it. The last time I got a bid for an electrical job, the estimator was a young woman. That said, women in the trades have to contend with discrimination and harassment (perhaps more than in life in general). That's no doubt another reason there are fewer women. But things seem to be changing. Especially since so many blue collar jobs are going begging due to lack of qualified applicants. Hopefully more women will step in.

 

[JustCurious]

Unfortunately, the fear of false accusations probably deters a lot of very qualified men from teaching and other jobs that puts them in close contact with underage females. It only takes is one upset or angry girl to make a false accusation that destroys someone's career and reputation. Why would anyone risk it?

+1 It's not just "underage" females, but any females...one of the effects of the "me too" movement.

 

[JustCurious]

Here in Portland there's an organization (non-profit?) aimed specifically at getting women into the trades, and there have been several articles in local papers about how more women are doing it. The last time I got a bid for an electrical job, the estimator was a young woman. That said, women in the trades have to contend with discrimination and harassment (perhaps more than in life in general). That's no doubt another reason there are fewer women. But things seem to be changing. Especially since so many blue collar jobs are going begging due to lack of qualified applicants. Hopefully more women will step in.

Some professions are dominated by women, for example the vast majority of nurses and elementary school teachers are women, and close to 90% of veterinary medicine students are women. Are there any organizations that advocate against discrimination against men and for getting more men into those professions?

 

[tmm99]

We now have more male nurses, so more female plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics would be a natural progression.

 

[ugeauxgirl]

Some professions are dominated by women, for example the vast majority of nurses and elementary school teachers are women, and close to 90% of veterinary medicine students are women. Are there any organizations that advocate against discrimination against men and for getting more men into those professions?

I have to admit that I agree with you on this, but mega doesn't, and I've learned not to point this out. It is also an unpopular view with some of my female colleagues.

 

[JustCurious]

I have to admit that I agree with you on this, but mega doesn't, and I've learned not to point this out. It is also an unpopular view with some of my female colleagues.

Who is mega?

 

[Chuckanut]

Some professions are dominated by women, for example the vast majority of nurses and elementary school teachers are women, and close to 90% of veterinary medicine students are women. Are there any organizations that advocate against discrimination against men and for getting more men into those professions?

From what I understand, about 60% of college degrees go to females.

If a person has a son, going to college may be a great idea. He can have his pick of smart young women. OTOH, college women may need to seek out the electricians and plumbers.

 

[ugeauxgirl]

Who is mega?

Mega Corp. Unnamed big company I work for.

 

[travelover]

+1 It's not just "underage" females, but any females...one of the effects of the "me too" movement.

That's right. Until those uppity "me too" women came along, there was never any sexual harassment. Kind of like how ubiquitous video cameras caused the huge outbreak of police brutality.

 

[JustCurious]

That's right. Until those uppity "me too" women came along, there was never any sexual harassment. Kind of like how ubiquitous video cameras caused the huge outbreak of police brutality.

I don't think that's a fair analogy, and I did not say there was never any sexual harassment before, you are mischaracterizing what I said. The culture has become so polarized to the point where any woman can claim that a man committed "sexual harrasment," and it doesn't matter if her claim is true, or what the man did, or what she did, or even if the facts that she claims even constitute sexual harrasment at all...the man's career is over. That's wrong.

 

[Walt34]

[mod hat on]

Relax. travelover make joke. Fell flat. Oops.

[mod hat off]

That's right. Until those uppity "me too" women came along, there was never any sexual harassment. Kind of like how ubiquitous video cameras caused the huge outbreak of police brutality.

I don't think that's a fair analogy, and I did not say there was never any sexual harassment before, you are mischaracterizing what I said. The culture has become so polarized to the point where any woman can claim that a man committed "sexual harrasment," and it doesn't matter if her claim is true, or what the man did, or even if the facts that she claims even constitute sexual harrasment at all...the man's career is over. That's wrong.

 

[Amethyst]

It may be worth pointing out that some traditionally female-dominated professions, such as elementary school teacher or administrative assistant, are not among the more highly compensated.

Relatively low compensation could be one reason making those professions less attractive to men than other options. It could also explain why the number of male nurses seems to be rising, since nursing tends to be better paid than the other jobs I mentioned. For a fact, I have read that male nurses are in demand nowadays, due to the need to be able to lift very overweight patients.

To be sure, one would need data on how many men versus women apply for those jobs, and the rejection rate for each sex.

Some professions are dominated by women, for example the vast majority of nurses and elementary school teachers are women, and close to 90% of veterinary medicine students are women. Are there any organizations that advocate against discrimination against men and for getting more men into those professions?

 

[JustCurious]

It may be worth pointing out that some traditionally female-dominated professions, such as elementary school teacher or administrative assistant, are not among the more highly compensated.

Relatively low compensation could be one reason making those professions less attractive to men than other options. It could also explain why the number of male nurses seems to be rising, since nursing tends to be better paid than the other jobs I mentioned. For a fact, I have read that male nurses are in demand nowadays, due to the need to be able to lift very overweight patients.

To be sure, one would need data on how many men versus women apply for those jobs, and the rejection rate for each sex.

I agree that there are many factors involved that may explain why some professions are female dominated, and probably most or all of the factors are not related to intentional gender discrimination against men. But I think the same thing is true for professions dominated by men, that is to say most or all of the reasons have nothing to do with gender discrimination against women, at least not in 2019. For example, the vast majority of engineers are men, something like 90%, and I don't think that is the result of gender discrmination against women but rather the result of free choice...i.e. most women do not choose to go to engineering school.

The argument that women are discriminated against and discouraged to become engineers because of their gender in STEM fields does not hold up to the data since the majority of medical students are female, and the overwhelming majority of nursing and veterinary medicine students are female, and those fields are STEM fields. And women now comprise half of all law students. So the objective evidence indicates that there is no gender discrimination preventing women from getting a professional level education in a STEM field or other fields, including fields that used to be dominated by men.

I am not so naive to think that women were not subject to discrimination in higher education in the past, of course they were. But today in 2019, women and men have equal access to higher education, and the fact that some professions are dominated by men while others are dominated by women is the result of free choice, not gender discrimination. As shocking as it may sound to some people, men and women are different and sometimes make different choices.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I don't think that's a fair analogy, and I did not say there was never any sexual harassment before, you are mischaracterizing what I said. The culture has become so polarized to the point where any woman can claim that a man committed "sexual harrasment," and it doesn't matter if her claim is true, or what the man did, or what she did, or even if the facts that she claims even constitute sexual harrasment at all...the man's career is over. That's wrong.

And where does this take us to?

An article in Forbes 10 days ago said 60% of men are uncomfortable working with women. Up 14% from a year ago.

Kind of a shame what the world has become.

 

[Amethyst]

I hope you are right, and it is no longer the case. It certainly was two generations ago, when I was 12 and entering high school. We were given standardized "aptitude" tests, which in my case resulted in extremely high scores in Verbal Reasoning and Mechanical Reasoning, and well-above-average score in Mathematical Reasoning. Nobody even mentioned "engineering" to me; in fact, the careers suggested for me were Secretary and Journalist. But my much older brother was encouraged to become an engineer from a young age (and he did).

I hope two generations have made enough difference.

y most or all of the reasons have nothing to do with gender discrimination against women, at least not in 2019. For example, the vast majority of engineers are men, something like 90%, and I don't think that is the result of gender discrmination against women but rather the result of free choice....

 

[ERD50]

It may be worth pointing out that some traditionally female-dominated professions, such as elementary school teacher or administrative assistant, are not among the more highly compensated.

Relatively low compensation could be one reason making those professions less attractive to men than other options. It could also explain why the number of male nurses seems to be rising, since nursing tends to be better paid than the other jobs I mentioned. For a fact, I have read that male nurses are in demand nowadays, due to the need to be able to lift very overweight patients.

To be sure, one would need data on how many men versus women apply for those jobs, and the rejection rate for each sex.

DD graduated BSN just a few years ago, and the male nurses in the graduating class were still a single digit %.

My son earned his Pharm D a few years ago, much higher pay than nursing, and that class must have been 70-80% female.

Very few female garbage collectors. In general, people are drawn to things, and who is to say why?

But I do get aggravated when I hear the complaints of low representation of women on Corporate Boards or at the C-level. Many of these companies are tech companies, and the leaders came up through the ranks, many of them were engineers. So if female engineers were maybe single digits in their class 30 years ago, and yes, some dropped out to be stay-at-home-Moms (making it hard to stay competitive in a fast changing business), why should anyone be surprised that few made it to the higher ranks? And I don't think the engineering graduation rates are all that much higher today, and it will take another 20 years to see the results.

To be clear, no one should be discriminated against for any reason if they put in the time and effort and have the abilities. But the numbers say to expect a minority of females in certain areas, because of the numbers.

-ERD50

 

[Amethyst]

There are lots of reasons to say why people are drawn to things, and most of them are probably cultural ("girls/guys don't do that stuff") but presumably the garbage collection thing has to do with being able to lift heavy cans over and over. It may change if more municipalities start using automated trucks.

Very few female garbage collectors. In general, people are drawn to things, and who is to say why?



-ERD50

 

[audreyh1]

There is a cute billboard on our way that has a cute smiling young woman with black grease on her face and holding a large wrench. It suggests training to be a diesel mechanic and is advertising a local trade school. Always makes me smile.

 

[audreyh1]

There are lots of reasons to say why people are drawn to things, and most of them are probably cultural ("girls/guys don't do that stuff") but presumably the garbage collection thing has to do with being able to lift heavy cans over and over. It may change if more municipalities start using automated trucks.

I’m not sure who aspires when growing up to be a garbage collector riding on the back of a stinky garbage truck growing up, or even a construction worker for that matter. Seems like those are more “gotta have a job” type careers and are tough even for stronger men, and in construction usually the younger folks doing it until they can find something better.

Around here the garbage collector is actually a driver as the lifting is done by the truck. They rarely get out. Rarely see the driver.

 

[Amethyst]

Where we just moved from, garbage collector has many benefits for unskilled, physically strong people. Recycling bins are emptied via a mechanical lift, but garbage bins are still collected manually.

They get all the county benefits (which are excellent). They work only until their route is done. So the faster they can complete the route, the quicker they get to go home. And man, are they fast.

I’m not sure who aspires to be a garbage collector .

 

[JustCurious]

There are lots of reasons to say why people are drawn to things, and most of them are probably cultural ("girls/guys don't do that stuff")

I think most of them are probably inherent differences between men and women (i.e. more nature than nurture), and the culture is a byproduct.

 

[JustCurious]

DD graduated BSN just a few years ago, and the male nurses in the graduating class were still a single digit %.

My son earned his Pharm D a few years ago, much higher pay than nursing, and that class must have been 70-80% female.

I recently attended the graduation ceremony for a college of veterinary medicine, and I would say at least 90% of the graduates were women.

 

[audreyh1]

I think most of them are probably inherent differences between men and women (i.e. more nature than nurture), and the culture is a byproduct.

Many of us think the opposite, that culture is a much stronger force. I don't think you'll ever prove it definitively one way or the other to everyone's satisfaction. Although looking at how many more options are available to individuals nowadays as compared to decades and centuries ago is a good clue.

 

[Amethyst]

Which inherent differences are you referring to? The only inherent differences I am aware of, other than reproductive ones, are that most men are physically stronger than most women.

Women and men are equally intelligent, so any "avoidance" by women of intellectual occupations, such as engineering, the sciences, and so on, cannot be explained by "nature."

Physical strength would not seem to be a factor in engineering, the sciences, law etc. Come to think of it, aren't there starting to be more women than men going into law? And tons of women doctors and dentists, where two generations ago it was much more unusual.

Meanwhile, the segregation - willing or not - of women into "caring" roles, and their avoidance by men, is most definitely cultural.
While there may not be that many male nurses yet, their presence is on the rise, and we as patients are certainly not the worse for it.

But we are diverging greatly from my original curiosity as to why it took until 2019 for us to have Bobbi (that was her name), rather than Bob, reseating our toilets.

I think most of them are probably inherent differences between men and women (i.e. more nature than nurture), and the culture is a byproduct.