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Old 07-08-2015, 11:31 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by haha View Post
Of all the things that are discussed on this board, the marriage question has the most clear answer. Are you male? Yes. Do you certainly want children and does she also, and is she fertile? No -> stay single.

Nothing makes you hostage to someone else's actions like American marriage does.

BTW, do you know that debtors prison still exists in America? Just fall behind in child support payments and you will discover all about it. Child support that may be impossible for you to pay, because you have lost your job. And just try to get a job with your prison record. Will family court realize your difficulty and stop your child support mandate? Very doubtful. Remember the death by cop of Walter Scott in South Carolina? Why did he run? He didn't want to be imprisoned for missing child support payments that he could not possibly pay. Why did the policeman shoot him? Because this I how things can go.

Women are wonderful, but if they insist on marriage to you, why? Do you insist that they marry you, in order to continue a relationship with them?

News flash: this is way more important than when to take SS.

Ha
+1

It's the same for the Canadian marriages too.
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:10 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by haha View Post
Of all the things that are discussed on this board, the marriage question has the most clear answer. Are you male? Yes. Do you certainly want children and does she also, and is she fertile? No -> stay single.

Nothing makes you hostage to someone else's actions like American marriage does.

BTW, do you know that debtors prison still exists in America? Just fall behind in child support payments and you will discover all about it. Child support that may be impossible for you to pay, because you have lost your job. et a job with your prison record. Will family court realize your difficulty and stop your child support mandate? Very doubtful. Remember the death by cop of Walter Scott in South Carolina? Why did he run? He didn't want to be imprisoned for missing child support payments that he could not possibly pay. Why did the policeman shoot him? Because this I how things can go.

Women are wonderful, but if they insist on marriage to you, why? Do you insist that they marry you, in order to continue a relationship with them?

News flash: this is way more important than when to take SS.

Ha
Pre-nup anyone?
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Old 07-09-2015, 05:47 AM   #83
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Well put, Ha.

As anyone who has been divorced can tell you, modern marriage, when all is said and done, is at it's core a financial arrangement with significant tax and property implications. Some of the implications might be positive for you, some negative. Tread very carefully.
And...it can w*rk both ways, regardless of gender.

My trust attorney told me point blank that I should never remarry. He has seen many real live cases where a woman in my position (widowed, with decent financial assets and pension income) has been taken to the cleaners by an unscrupulous man. It happens in both directions, i.e. a widower taken to the cleaners by an unscrupulous woman.

"Nothing makes you hostage to someone else's actions like American marriage does."
Ha is absolutely correct in his assessment of the financial ruin that a divorce can deliver. He has obviously "walked the walk".

Divorced, widowed, married once or multiple times...the common ground is a break-up (past or present) has huge financial ramifications and the door is wide open for attorneys and judges to dictate your financial future, or lack thereof.

I fully intend to adhere to my attorney's advice. "Single" is not a dirty word. It keeps the sheckels where they belong...under my control no matter what happens relationship-wise.
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Old 07-09-2015, 07:51 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by haha View Post
Of all the things that are discussed on this board, the marriage question has the most clear answer. Are you male? Yes. Do you certainly want children and does she also, and is she fertile? No -> stay single.

Nothing makes you hostage to someone else's actions like American marriage does.

BTW, do you know that debtors prison still exists in America? Just fall behind in child support payments and you will discover all about it. Child support that may be impossible for you to pay, because you have lost your job. And just try to get a job with your prison record. Will family court realize your difficulty and stop your child support mandate? Very doubtful.....

Ha
I certainly understand this POV but wonder why it's not a general "no" to marriage--why get married "for the kids"? Parental rights and child support obligations exist under law without marriage. I think 40 percent of children today are born to unmarried parents: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/unma...ildbearing.htm.
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Old 07-09-2015, 07:58 AM   #85
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Though out western history, marriage (not couples committed for a time) was an economic matter. The poor did not marry in the formal sense as they had no economic considerations. It still is but we, like most things we do, cover the truth in clouds of nonsense. I suspect that marriage in the economic sense will become much less common as the stigma of out of wedlock children declines.
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Old 07-09-2015, 07:59 AM   #86
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Fifty some years ago, before Prenup was a "thing." we, with not a nickel between us, were married. We did have a child on the way which took care of the "fertility" question, however. I do hope that I don't regret that decision some time in the future.
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:17 AM   #87
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Many good points here.

However, regarding child support: one does not have to marry to have children or to provide child support.

I've been married 31 years and sole breadwinner for 27. There have been times when the financial responsibility for my family weighed very heavy, and caused relationship difficulties. It sometimes felt as if DH took advantage of my income not to work, but that was never his intention. He works hard now for little pay for community organizations.

We both knew that would be our reality and discussed fully before deciding to get married.

There is a huge aspect of marriage that is a business relationship. But to be friends, lovers, parents together, and business partners all wrapped in one can be a pretty nice deal. Instead of a trust we have set up our assets in a family limited partnership so it even behaves like a business.

I also would never remarry if widowed, in my current financial situation.


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Old 07-09-2015, 08:36 AM   #88
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I do not know much about the circumstances of the OP. But same as many posters here, the immediate question I had was that if he did not trust this girl right from start, what was the point of getting married?

It is a lot easier to get married when a couple is young, empty pocketed, and starting to build a new life together. Even so, people change and things often fall apart. And for an older and established person, there are not many reasons to get married or remarried.
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:48 AM   #89
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I agree that most people don't think through the financial consequences of marriage. If you are going to take the plunge, pick very, very carefully and work hard at making it stick.

Regarding child support, custody issues, debtor's prison, etc. -- no marriage needed there to be subject to any of that. Just don't have sex. Or get permanently fixed so you don't have to worry about kids. It's a simple as that.
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:58 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Bestwifeever View Post
I certainly understand this POV but wonder why it's not a general "no" to marriage--why get married "for the kids"? Parental rights and child support obligations exist under law without marriage. I think 40 percent of children today are born to unmarried parents: NCHS - 404 Error - Resource Not Available
You are right. However since the big stick for a non-custodial parent is child support, it seems like the additional downside to being married parents is much less. I am not sure, but it may make it easier to raise happy, successful children also.

Also, I would like to comment briefly on why I direct my warnings to men. It is only because I am a man, and thus have paid more attention to the issue as confronted by men. I would be straying into unknown territory if I did not limit my ideas to marriage as it exists for men, and men under the US political regime. I have received a pm that states that it is essentially the same in Canada. It is also true that for younger people in the typical situation, when a woman suffers financially from marriage gone bad it is a bit of a man bites dog situation. Additionally, this entire issue is very sensitive to the laws and practices in a given state.

Ha
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Old 07-09-2015, 10:59 AM   #91
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Don't know why everyone is giving you such a hard time. Nothing wrong with being concerned with being taken to the cleaners if marriage does not work out. I agree that there are certainly enough women out there who would gladly take whatever they could get their hands on, if marriage were to end in divorce. So if you consider marriage in the future, I would not be so timid about having a pre-nup. In fact I would not get married without one.

No one (especially someone in love) ever thinks their marriage will end in divorce. But over half do. So if you have considerable assets going in and she does not, insist on a prenup. If she objects, then you have the wrong girl. This is coming from a female by the way.
It's not so much the possibility of divorce (which can happen to any couple) but considering the lack of trust, I do wonder why he's even considering marrying the girl in the first place.

That said, yes to the pre-nup. I don't plan on ever getting married but on the teeny tiny chance that I do, I wouldn't do so without a pre-nup.
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:33 PM   #92
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I'd only ever marry with a pre-nup. I live with someone now and we talk about what is fair in our relationship all the time. We have agreements in place already about how the bills will be split, what is expected from each to contribute to the relationship both financially and within the household...because whether your cooking at home or eating out makes a huge impact on finances as does doing your own yard work, cleaning your own house, etc.. so to be fair you have to attribute a "value" to those tasks. I think if married couples attributed a value to the stay at home parent and budgeted money accordingly, a lot of divorces wouldn't be so ugly because the person at home would have their own IRA and savings from the money that was budgeted to them.


In the end, its about finding someone you can create a 5/10/20/lifetime plan with that is on the same page and you talk openly about it. Since we are 'cohabitating' I've seen many cohabitation agreements that make you walk through these things step by step (ie because you wouldn't want to accidently find yourself married in one of these common law states) and we move a lot so its a concern.
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:09 PM   #93
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Recently had a conversation with my son, just finishing college, about retirement planning. Part of my recommendation was that planning for divorce was an essential aspect of any retirement plan. He is not married or planning it at the moment, but he needs to think about this. I have a number of friends who's retirements were completely derailed by divorce. They were doing well, but now plan on working as long as they can, and living off SS. It is sad.
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Old 07-10-2015, 02:38 PM   #94
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What is your opinion?
When DW and I married in 1970 we opened a joint checking and savings account.

Since that time we have opened many investment, MF and bank accounts, all joint.

Though DW has access to all of our finances, she has little inclination to even look @ that paperwork. It's all there hiding in plain sight.

My advice? Keep it simple.
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Old 07-10-2015, 03:10 PM   #95
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Thanks for the ad hominem slam. The surest sign that one has no case, is to pull this straight off. I would call my position rational, but you are welcome to call it whatever you wish.
Oh yes, and creating a blanket argument that you wish to apply to everyone based on your personal (apparently negative) experience is certainly more rational.

People get married for a lot of reasons. Some are great reasons and the marriage dissolves. Some get married for all the wrong reasons and find the marriage works anyway. If there was a formula for it that is as simple as the one you laid out, the divorce rate in this country would be far lower than it is. Personally, I think getting married so you can have and raise kids is part of it - but not for everyone and certainly not all of it. The implication that one shouldn't get married unless kids are at the center of it is a narrow (and probably jaded) view, in my opinion.

YMMV.
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Old 07-10-2015, 03:20 PM   #96
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My solution would be to suggest marrying someone with character and integrity.

When my first wife & I (in retrospect we should never have married in the first place) split, we agreed to divide the proceeds from the sale of our (mortgaged) house evenly.

I then went to Saudi - the bank had instructions to deposit my funds into her account - one morning I received a call from the bank in Toronto, the lady said that "Under the circumstances......" and wanted to ensure the instructions still stood.

I replied that I wouldn't rob my soon to be ex and I wouldn't expect her to rob me.

The caller said "Isn't that nice" and hung up.......everything went according to plan.
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Old 07-10-2015, 05:14 PM   #97
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Can't find any fault with any of the posts here. Everyone's situation is different, and Lord knows things don't always work out as planned. We were crazy kids that got married at 19, suspect no one gave us very good odds. Long before prenups, and at the time we literally had almost no money, maybe $500. First purchase was a room AC for our shotgun apartment in New Orleans. Still remember cooling food (and beer) on the coils since we had to wait on a refrigerator!

Ours was pretty much a yesteryear marriage. She supported me through school and then after three degrees we had kids. She worked a bit but it wasn't worth it. I'm sure if a divorce ever came up (and yes, there was one midlife rough patch) it would have meant a huge hit in wealth for both of us. As the years have gone on (45 years next month) it has been hugely beneficial in so many ways to both of us, it just works. So while I know so well from friends and others on this board that marriage can decimate ones finances and general well being, it does sometimes work out. I'm realistic enough to think perhaps one of my offspring might have done well to have looked into a pre nup. But I just wanted to add that while there are many horror stories of crash and burn marriages, there are some that work out very well, and in fact in our case the financial partnership has put us very well off. And as always, YMMV!
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:53 AM   #98
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my wife wants nothing more than to have absolutely nothing to do with our finances. we have been married for 45 years and I tried a few times to get her involved in our finances, but no go. so you should at least discuss finances to find out how each of you feels about the subject and possible solutions to the problem.
I have that same problem; wife is just not interested. She has no idea on what is where and how much. It worries me because the odds are very good that I will pass long before her.
With that in mind, I created a "now that I am dead" notebook for her. It lists every account and credentials to access them. Current balances that I update every few months. Accounts to maintain and those to close in the event of my passing.
In addition, advice on what to pay off with the life insurance etc, what accounts to use in an emergency, etc.

Maybe a little morbid for some, but absolutely critical in my situation
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