HVAC replacement question

[travelover]

Well, the quotes are in....

Top variable speed system... $12,300
Lower rated variable speed... $10,900
Two stage..... $9,700

And to replace the AC unit (replaces the coil inside and a few other things inside)... $5,400...

Is this for a furnace and AC or just the AC?

 

[Texas Proud]

Is this for a furnace and AC or just the AC?

Top three is to replace the whole system, AC and heating...

Bottom is to replace only the AC.... both inside and out...

 

[travelover]

Top three is to replace the whole system, AC and heating...

Bottom is to replace only the AC.... both inside and out...

Just for another data point. I paid $3375 for a 95% efficient two stage gas furnace with variable fan (in 2009) and $2600 for a new AC (mid range Carrier) in 2013, which included inside and outside components and all electrical. It pays to get multiple quotes.

 

[aja8888]

Just for another data point. I paid $3375 for a 95% efficient two stage gas furnace with variable fan (in 2009) and $2600 for a new AC (mid range Carrier) in 2013, which included inside and outside components and all electrical. It pays to get multiple quotes.

That's a good price for the A/C system. When I bought my 4 ton Goodman unit (components only), I paid $1,800 for the system. Dropped it in myself in 1/2 day with help from friends. It came pre-charged with freon too, but we had to add some from the saved amount.

Prices vary considerably on the equipment based on SEER rating and manufacturer.

 

[rodi]

Timely thread for me.

The recent heat wave and above average temperatures this summer have finally convinced me that people who live in Southern California and comment on how they "don't need A/C" are just willing to deal with months of 80 degree houses and 80% humidity. And that's in San Diego!

I have declared rolleyes to DW that we are getting A/C when my annual bonus hits, which coincides with the fall. According to a quick web search, several contractors recommended the fall as it is between the time when they are busy with HVAC repairs and the time when people figure out that their heat isn't working. I'm thinking October or early November here ought to provide whatever "deal" there is, or at least the most availability.

We live in a 1600 sqft, single-story home. I'm thinking we could probably get away with a 2 ton, maybe 3 ton unit, and given that we may only use it 3-4 months out of the year, that I don't think we need to break the bank for a top-of-the-line system. I admit I am not yet that familiar with two-stage vs. variable speed, etc.

We have existing ducting that our home inspector said was in good shape, as was the furnace, when we purchased the home 3.5 years ago. Unfortunately, the 30 year old house has never had A/C, so there will likely be more cost associated with a new install.

I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on my threadjack here... if you lived someplace like San Diego/Coronado where it gets hot but not HOT, humid but not HUMID, and lived in a house our size requiring cooling for 4 or so months each year, what type of system would you recommend?

(Note: NONE is no longer an option. )

Last week and the week before were brutal here in San Diego. I grew up here and do not ever remember it being so hot. It was worse than I remember from living in Philly - super humid, and super high temps. I was glad we'd already completed 2/3's of your window upgrades since we don't have AC. We'd cool the house as much as possible overnight with the attic fan, then turn it off and shut all the windows around 7am... when it started getting hot outside. Schools shut down early because of the heat wave for schools that don't have 100% AC. (My kids got early outs because they go to one of the oldest schools in the district.)

We definitely plan to get AC sometime in the next year. It was that bad. (And I've been FIRMLY in the "we don't need AC in San Diego" camp up till this last heat wave.)

We're looking at the dual split system for our 2000sf 2 story house. We're going to put in one unit in the living room, and one unit directly above, in the master bedroom. Fortunately, they're on the North side of the house, so we have a good place to put the compressor. We'll be retrofitting in pocket doors on the entry to the living room from the foyer, and a swinging door from the dining room to the kitchen.

We have a natural gas furnace - which we replaced a few years ago from the original 1964 builder unit. The advise we got at the time was that the location did not make it a good candidate for retrofit to AC. Our neighbors did it - but they had to make some boxouts in one of the bedrooms to accomodate something or other associated with it.

Thank goodness the heat wave broke earlier this week.

 

[sengsational]

That's a good price for the A/C system. When I bought my 4 ton Goodman unit (components only), I paid $1,800 for the system. Dropped it in myself in 1/2 day with help from friends. It came pre-charged with freon too, but we had to add some from the saved amount.

Prices vary considerably on the equipment based on SEER rating and manufacturer.

So how would one install a pre-charged system? It would seem as if the connection between the evaporator coils inside and the condenser and compressor outside would be a variable distance, and the connecting copper would need to be threaded through holes in the walls, etc. Just curious/flummoxed. I always assumed that this is not a DIY operation. I could see how one could remove the old and set the new in place, but to evacuate and charge the freon might require more equipment expense than it would save in labor.

 

[aja8888]

So how would one install a pre-charged system? It would seem as if the connection between the evaporator coils inside and the condenser and compressor outside would be a variable distance, and the connecting copper would need to be threaded through holes in the walls, etc. Just curious/flummoxed. I always assumed that this is not a DIY operation. I could see how one could remove the old and set the new in place, but to evacuate and charge the freon might require more equipment expense than it would save in labor.

Used existing copper plumbing in walls. Disconnected plumbing was silver soldered to couplings at compressor/coil. The charge in the unit is valved closed until copper is resoldered, vacuum pulled, and valves opened. Hired A/C certified tech to evac old unit, pull vac, finish recharge. Not too complicated for a handy individual. For a Mechanical Engineer like me, it's pretty basic work.

 

[meierlde]

Used existing copper plumbing in walls. Disconnected plumbing was silver soldered to couplings at compressor/coil. The charge in the unit is valved closed until copper is resoldered, vacuum pulled, and valves opened. Hired A/C certified tech to evac old unit, pull vac, finish recharge. Not too complicated for a handy individual. For a Mechanical Engineer like me, it's pretty basic work.

New units tend to have a pre charge that covers a standard length of piping. The tech after installing everything, once the unit is turned on adds refrigerant as needed to the pressures correct. (With the unit running). So basically the external unit contains enough refrigerant to handle a standard situation, and is overcharged for just the outside unit.

 

[Texas Proud]

Just for another data point. I paid $3375 for a 95% efficient two stage gas furnace with variable fan (in 2009) and $2600 for a new AC (mid range Carrier) in 2013, which included inside and outside components and all electrical. It pays to get multiple quotes.

Thanks for the price compare... I do not know why it cost more, but it could be my choice in units...

I have always liked Trane units... they seem to last longer...

The one I had at my old house was almost 20 YO when I sold.... but it was on its last leg... the person who bought the house knew it was so...

My sister just replace one that was maybe 16 or so years... like what I have... kinda did the same thing... had a repair and decided to use that money to replace instead of repair... these were the best quotes for someone that seemed like they knew what they were doing....

What sized unit did you get I do not know if there is that much difference in price, but has to be some....

 

[travelover]

..............What sized unit did you get I do not know if there is that much difference in price, but has to be some....

The gas furnace is a Lennox 35,000 / 70,000 BTU unit. The AC is a 2 ton Carrier.

Performance 13 Central Air Conditioning System - 24ACB3 | Carrier - Home Comfort

 

[Texas Proud]

The gas furnace is a Lennox 35,000 / 70,000 BTU unit. The AC is a 2 ton Carrier.

Performance 13 Central Air Conditioning System - 24ACB3 | Carrier - Home Comfort

My AC would be 5 tons.... also an SEER of 16.... yours looks like a max 15... I would think the size and a tad more efficiency would cost.... just do not know how much....

DW is talking like she does not want to change... says it is working just fine... (just to add, she wants me to replace our SUV... I think she does not want anything to get in the way of doing that).....

I will get a few other quotes, but will probably take the advice of the survey.... do nothing...

 

[aja8888]

My AC would be 5 tons.... also an SEER of 16.... yours looks like a max 15... I would think the size and a tad more efficiency would cost.... just do not know how much....

DW is talking like she does not want to change... says it is working just fine... (just to add, she wants me to replace our SUV... I think she does not want anything to get in the way of doing that).....

I will get a few other quotes, but will probably take the advice of the survey.... do nothing...

It's model year changeover time. Maybe you can get a good deal on a leftover 2014 SUV.

 

[Texas Proud]

Hey.... I found a site that gives prices on Trane...


Trane Air Conditioners Prices - Pros, Cons, and Cost


The top of the line one was the most expensive one quoted... just the AC unit is $5500 wholesale... also getting the rest of the system replaced... the top of the line units are also very quiet compared to the lower rated ones...


Also looked at Sears.... and you can see the price of a 16 SEER or higher is in the $3000 to $4000 range... without installation.... looks like the quotes are not that far off when you compare the prices for the systems...


Air Condition Systems from Sears.com

 

[sengsational]

... Hired A/C certified tech to evac old unit, pull vac, finish recharge. ...

That's what I was wondering about...the vacuum pump, freon tank, pressure guages, etc would be "one time use" tools, and handling freon needs a license/certification.

 

[travelover]

Hey.... I found a site that gives prices on Trane...


Trane Air Conditioners Prices - Pros, Cons, and Cost


The top of the line one was the most expensive one quoted... just the AC unit is $5500 wholesale... also getting the rest of the system replaced... the top of the line units are also very quiet compared to the lower rated ones...


Also looked at Sears.... and you can see the price of a 16 SEER or higher is in the $3000 to $4000 range... without installation.... looks like the quotes are not that far off when you compare the prices for the systems...


Air Condition Systems from Sears.com

Sounds like you have done your homework. My advice is to get four estimates and do a manual J calculation to ensure that you have the right size installed. I used an online calculator and my needed size units (heat and AC) were smaller than any of the reps recommended. They always oversize to CYA, which not only wastes money but also sacrifices comfort.

 

[nash031]

Last week and the week before were brutal here in San Diego. I grew up here and do not ever remember it being so hot.

We definitely plan to get AC sometime in the next year. It was that bad. (And I've been FIRMLY in the "we don't need AC in San Diego" camp up till this last heat wave.)

We're looking at the dual split system for our 2000sf 2 story house. We're going to put in one unit in the living room, and one unit directly above, in the master bedroom. Fortunately, they're on the North side of the house, so we have a good place to put the compressor. We'll be retrofitting in pocket doors on the entry to the living room from the foyer, and a swinging door from the dining room to the kitchen.

Thank goodness the heat wave broke earlier this week.

Glad to hear I'm not alone! The last two summers have had truly unbearable periods. We may not run it much most summers, but I'd have killed for it this past summer.

I'm with you on the breaking of the heat. This past weekend was beautiful. I think the problem this summer was the lack of May gray/June gloom. Ocean temp is about 10 degrees higher than normal because of the early summer sun exposure. Kelp growth is bad this year, too, but the cool breeze and marine layer from the ocean have been missing more often than not this summer, thus the 85/80 days that have worn me down on A/C.

Our ducting appears to be in good shape based on my untrained eye, so I'll go home tonight and do a manual J calculation and see what I get. I'm guessing we don't need anything fancy at all given our small, single story, psuedo-oceanfront property. We don't have any windows with afternoon sun, just our master bedroom with exposure from about 10-2pm, and one skylight. Hoping a small size will work, and that the install will be relatively painless (and less expensive than I'm budgeting!).

 

[Walt34]

I assume the compressor would be laid outside, so I think they would have to put down a foundation for it.

For the "foundation" for the compressor yes, that used to require a concrete pad. At least around here and in MD what I've been seeing for the last 20+ years is either a plastic pad installed level on the ground or more recently two "arms" installed in the foundation wall to hold it a foot or three above ground. Those are usually put in when the foundation wall of the house is built. Not expensive at all.

 

[JoeWras]

For the "foundation" for the compressor yes, that used to require a concrete pad. At least around here and in MD what I've been seeing for the last 20+ years is either a plastic pad installed level on the ground or more recently two "arms" installed in the foundation wall to hold it a foot or three above ground. Those are usually put in when the foundation wall of the house is built. Not expensive at all.

Let me make a vote against the "arms bolted to the wall". My dad had this and it ended up transmitting vibration through the whole structure. It is very low frequency, but can drive you crazy.

If placed on a pad, it is much better isolated. My installer actually had real pre-cast preform concrete pads they laid down.

Now, if you are in a flood prone area, they may raise the unit above the flood plain. This is very common where a house is built "on stilts" or even raised. (Think beachfront, but it isn't the only place.) In this case, the arms may be best.

 

[springnr]

Our ducting appears to be in good shape based on my untrained eye, so I'll go home tonight and do a manual J calculation and see what I get. I'm guessing we don't need anything fancy at all given our small, single story, psuedo-oceanfront property. We don't have any windows with afternoon sun, just our master bedroom with exposure from about 10-2pm, and one skylight. Hoping a small size will work, and that the install will be relatively painless (and less expensive than I'm budgeting!).

I ended up prioritizing the installer over equipment brand choice because of the integration of gas furnace and heat pump systems. The propane furnace now functions as the aux heat. The price of propane was putting a hurt on the wallet.

Networking is good, several different people independently recommended the same HVAC installer as a competent person who took pride in a job done right. They were right, I'm happy.

 

[JoeWras]

I ended up prioritizing the installer over equipment brand choice because of the integration of gas furnace and heat pump systems. The propane furnace now functions as the aux heat. The price of propane was putting a hurt on the wallet.

Networking is good, several different people independently recommended the same HVAC installer as a competent person who took pride in a job done right. They were right, I'm happy.

A crappy install does no good for the best of equipment. I think your idea is wise.

Crappy installs can create a variety of issues:
- Refrigerant leaks. Can severely damage and limit lifetime of equipment.
- Duct leakage. For supply, you lose the air. For return, you could get dirty air bypassing your filters and messing up the coils and heat exchanger.
- Wiring faults
- Poor condensate drainage. Failure to have proper backup drainage, catch pans or float limit switches.

I'm not an HVAC installer. However, I did manage 20+ units as a volunteer at my church. I've seen good and bad installs. The above 'bad' were all issues I ran into on the bad installs. The installer clearly took shortcuts.

 

[MuirWannabe]

I live in Texas like the OP. Upon returning from a recent vacation we found out our downstairs unit had cratered. Just got an estimate for a 5 ton dual speed Trane unit replacing our outside compressor, coils, and furnace system for $8200.

Although that's a tough bill to swallow, I think it might be a reasonable cost overall for what we are buying and having done. I am getting two other quotes prepared for comparison sakes. Thanks goodeness we are having a cooler respite right now to allow time for comparisons.

Muir

 

[REWahoo]

I live in Texas like the OP. Upon returning from a recent vacation we found out our downstairs unit had cratered. Just got an estimate for a 5 ton dual speed Trane unit replacing our outside compressor, coils, and furnace system for $8200.

A 5 ton unit just for the downstairs? Wow, you must have some serious square footage in that mansion.

 

[MuirWannabe]

A 5 ton unit just for the downstairs? Wow, you must have some serious square footage in that mansion.

Ok. Now you have me worried. I'm not an engineer or anything close to that and frankly an idiot when it comes to these matters.

You clearly imply I'm quoted a system far too big. My total house is 3000sqft. Not sure what just the downstairs is but certainly not of mansion proportions. I did ask how he sized the system quoted and he said it was equivalent to the old one being replaced.

As mentioned I have two other companies coming out to prepare quotes. It will be interesting to see if they provide similar specs or if they go smaller.

Now for the dumber question of the day. How big should my system be and how the heck should I know?

And should I pay off the mortgage or replace my HVAC system?

 

[nash031]

Based on my limited learning experiences thus far, I admit that 5 tons does seem pretty large for just the downstairs of a 3000 sq ft home. Then again, your load is larger than mine, your house is larger than mine...

The price seems high for what I'm used to hearing. A 4 ton unit install "from scratch" out here cost my friends $4500. That was with all wiring, piping and ducting required to be installed, as well as the AC unit itself.

Other folks I've talked to also recommend looking at options other than Trane. You can find better value; Trane is considered by some to be "top of the line." Maybe you want that in Texas, and maybe the costs are totally different.

Definitely a good call to get two other estimates! I'd ask them to do a load calculation and tell you what they recommend based off of that, rather than trying to just replace the old one. It's possible you've got "too much" A/C, which is more expensive to install, and inefficient due to excessive cycling.

 

[REWahoo]

Definitely a good call to get two other estimates! I'd ask them to do a load calculation and tell you what they recommend based off of that, rather than trying to just replace the old one. It's possible you've got "too much" A/C, which is more expensive to install, and inefficient due to excessive cycling.

+1

I'm far from an expert but I went through this process a few years ago and the "correct" size for our 2400 SF single-story TX house calculated at 3.5 tons. 5 tons may be reasonable for 3000 SF, but since you said "downstairs unit" it leads me to believe you have a second unit for upstairs, which led to my comment.

Definitely get a load calculation done with the other estimates.

And should I pay off the mortgage or replace my HVAC system?

Not sure, but if I were you I'd work at least OMY and delay SS to age 68.387.