Condo common area cleaning dilemma

[pdxgal]

Wondering how folks who have condos suggest resolving a cleaning dilemma. I own a condo in a four unit building. The original owners (i.e. the HOA) decided years ago that owners would take turns by month for weekly cleaning of the common area. Takes about and hour and isn't too onerous. Two years ago one unit changed hands, and the new owner has not cleaned when it's their months. We initially gave them the benefit of the doubt and several gentle reminders, but they don't seem to care. The HOA doesn't have a policy in place to address this, as this is the first time in 30 years that it's happened. We are considering levying fines for non-compliance, but that doesn't get the cleaning done. We've thought of taking it a step further and hiring a cleaning company after x times of non-compliance and charging the owner as an additional fee, but that would be a lot more complicated to administer and coordinate.

So to start, what would be a reasonable fee to charge for each weekly instance of not cleaning? FWIW, we're in an urban, high COLA area. If we were to hire an outside company they'd charge $130 each time. And what are some ideas for how to get the cleaning done if owner opts to just rack up fines? Thanks in advance for your hive mind feedback.

 

[Sunset]

Maybe the condo, just needs to hire someone to go around and clean the common areas.
That way it's fair.

It would raise the cost (your numbers) by $32.50 per month per unit.

This also answers the issue of what if you have an elderly person, a handicapped, etc person , they would want to buy into a condo to NOT do work.
What happens if someone cleaning, gets hurt, falls down stairs ? or leaves the floor wet and another person slips and falls ?


If it's truly a condo, this type of thing can really turn ugly.
Person feels right doesn't do it.
Fine Person
Person doesn't pay fine
Find Person
Person doesn't pay fine
Hire lawyer and threaten eviction.
Person hires lawyer.
Court costs pile of money, time,
Maybe Person gets evicted or Pays fines and stays and hates everyone.
Maybe Person wins, then stays and hates everyone, and doesn't clean.

 

[FlaGator]

The co-op cleaning method sounds good until someone doesn't comply.

Have to look at the governing documents and limits proscribed by state law, forget about history. A few options to evaluate, from my time on a HOA board in FL :
-fine them up to amount necessary to do the cleaning, or the state max whichever is lower.
- If the fine is enough to cover the cleaning, have it done on their behalf.
-As suggested, amend the governing docs to have the cleaning done by a third party and include that cost in the in the HOA fees.

The governing docs are and state law will outline possible courses of action. Follow them or amend them to address this situation. Surprised it hasn't happened sooner than 30 years.

 

[pdxgal]

Maybe the condo, just needs to hire someone to go around and clean the common areas.
That way it's fair.

It would raise the cost (your numbers) by $32.50 per month per unit.

The add'l cost per unit would be $130 per month, since the cleaners charge $130/week, or $520/mo. In theory it's fair, but the reality is more complicated. One of the owners does their own cleaning, and the two other owners (who are absentee) pay that same owner $200 when it's their months. So owner #1 would lose their side gig of $1200/year, plus have to pay an extra $130/mo. That isn't sitting well. Agree that these types of things can get nasty, which we'd like to avoid.

We initially thought of letting owners #1 "opt out" of paying for outside cleaning, since they are happy to do it themselves. But the CC&Rs say that "The expenses for Regular Annual Assessments shall be divided among the the owners equally." Does that preclude an owner opting out of a portion of HOA dues, if they do the equivalent work themselves?

 

[pdxgal]

@FlaGator, appreciate your voice of experience on an HOA board. Sounds like yours was larger. Our board is just us, all four owners.

- If the fine is enough to cover the cleaning, have it done on their behalf.
.

This is what we (HOA) were thinking. We got stuck when thinking of how and when to implement. Sometimes life happens, and a person could miss a week of cleaning. So maybe say that if they miss two or three weeks of cleaning in any month, then the HOA will hire someone for the foreseeable future, unless the owner can show they've made other arrangements. Would that be reasonable?

The CC&Rs say we need to give notice to owners of any fines or disciplinary actions, so it doesn't seem practical to do that handle each cleaning violation separately.

 

[gauss]

Sounds like a conversation with a Real Estate attorney with experience in supporting HOA's may be time well spent.

Or perhaps the 3 other units would prefer just to look the other way and either clean on behalf of the new resident or let it go.

I am sorry that you have to deal with this. Neighbor relations that go sour once a new person who "doesn't care" or "likes to mix it up with people" moves in, can really impact quality of life.

I have been "living the dream" for about 5 years now.

-gauss

 

[Jerry1]

Has anyone had a direct conversation with the owners who are not cleaning? Maybe they would like to take advantage of owner #1’s side gig and pay him to do the cleaning for them. Also, maybe they have a legitimate reason for not being able to clean.

Ultimately, it sounds like you’ll need to change your bylaws to accommodate this situation which will likely result in hiring the cleaning company and charging everyone equally. As for unit #1, there’s no reason they can’t bid the job so that they don’t have to lose their side gig.

 

[Bigdawg]

^ Reason #XXX why I will NEVER get involved with an HOA. Good luck.

 

[folivier]

Our condo HOA uses a private Facebook group and whenever something is needed they ask for volunteers. Some people usually step up. That keeps it fair for everyone, those who want or need something to do, those who either can't or don't want to do these things, and it doesn't cost us anything. I will add that the majority of our residents are retired.

 

[donheff]

An actual "tragedy of the commons" problem. I don't see a good answer for this one. There are a lot of reasons why someone would be unable to put in the work or just doesn't want to. This matter sounds like you will have to pay for the service or work it out voluntarily, which is the unsatisfactory status quo.

 

[pb4uski]

The add'l cost per unit would be $130 per month, since the cleaners charge $130/week, or $520/mo. In theory it's fair, but the reality is more complicated. One of the owners does their own cleaning, and the two other owners (who are absentee) pay that same owner $200 when it's their months. So owner #1 would lose their side gig of $1200/year, plus have to pay an extra $130/mo. That isn't sitting well. Agree that these types of things can get nasty, which we'd like to avoid.

We initially thought of letting owners #1 "opt out" of paying for outside cleaning, since they are happy to do it themselves. But the CC&Rs say that "The expenses for Regular Annual Assessments shall be divided among the the owners equally." Does that preclude an owner opting out of a portion of HOA dues, if they do the equivalent work themselves?

Have the association give a credit towards association fees to the owners that do the cleaning and include the $2,400 in the common expenses split evenly across all units.

So the owner that does 3/4 of the cleaning would get a $1,800 a year credit and you would get a $600/year credit and for each of you your Association dues would go up $600 a year so the first owner would be $1,200/year ahead and you would be even.

 

[MichaelB]

Have the association give a credit towards association fees to the owners that do the cleaning and include the $2,400 in the common expenses split evenly across all units.

So the owner that does 3/4 of the cleaning would get a $1,800 a year credit and you would get a $600/year credit and for each of you your Association dues would go up $600 a year so the first owner would be $1,200/year ahead and you would be even.

Clever

 

[plsprius]

Maybe the condo, just needs to hire someone to go around and clean the common areas.
That way it's fair.

It would raise the cost (your numbers) by $32.50 per month per unit.

This also answers the issue of what if you have an elderly person, a handicapped, etc person , they would want to buy into a condo to NOT do work.
What happens if someone cleaning, gets hurt, falls down stairs ? or leaves the floor wet and another person slips and falls ?

Agree with all of this.

The best way to solve this is to decide to outsource the cleaning and to raise the assessment. Fair to all. It's part of the bargain you agree to living in a condo.

I should add that an option would be to start with monthly outside cleaning, and add more visits each month if the results are unsatisfactory.

 

[Chuckanut]

Volunteer efforts can work in a Condo HOA if enough people care about their property. But, normally, people buy a Cond because they don’t want or can’t do many of the things necessary to maintain a property. I would hire a cleaning company, and add the cost to the monthly fee.

The problem with refunding part of the fee for those who do a cleaning is this: What do you do about the owner who does a lousy job cleaning the common area, and then demands his fee refund? Another headache in the making.

 

[pacergal]

Volunteer efforts can work in a Condo HOA if enough people care about their property. But, normally, people buy a Cond because they don’t want or can’t do many of the things necessary to maintain a property. I would hire a cleaning company, and add the cost to the monthly fee.

The problem with refunding part of the fee for those who do a cleaning is this: What do you do about the owner who does a lousy job cleaning the common area, and then demands his fee refund? Another headache in the making.

Agree.
It would seem the simplest solution would be to have professional cleaners, who are licensed and bonded(to potentially alleviate issues if someone gets hurt), clean consistently and everyone pay the same monthly fee.

 

[pb4uski]

Volunteer efforts can work in a Condo HOA if enough people care about their property. But, normally, people buy a Cond because they don’t want or can’t do many of the things necessary to maintain a property. I would hire a cleaning company, and add the cost to the monthly fee.

The problem with refunding part of the fee for those who do a cleaning is this: What do you do about the owner who does a lousy job cleaning the common area, and then demands his fee refund? Another headache in the making.

Agree.
It would seem the simplest solution would be to have professional cleaners, who are licensed and bonded(to potentially alleviate issues if someone gets hurt), clean consistently and everyone pay the same monthly fee.

Both fair points... I was just trying to come up with something other than hiring it out. Perhaps they can find a local person who wants a really part-time job at a reasonable cost and then pay them and include the cost in the common expenses.

 

[Sunset]

OP - This is a 4 unit HOA, with no others ? That is incredibly small if true.

Does the common area actually need cleaning weekly ? , maybe having a company clean it once every 2 weeks is fine, and not so expensive.

I picture an entrance, but maybe it's more ?

 

[pdxgal]

Has anyone had a direct conversation with the owners who are not cleaning? Maybe they would like to take advantage of owner #1’s side gig and pay him to do the cleaning for them. Also, maybe they have a legitimate reason for not being able to clean.

Owner #1 did approach the recalcitrant owner and offer to do the cleaning for $200/mo, but was turned down. Personality clash is part of it. Recalcitrant owner has shown themselves to be arrogant and self-centered (has not shown up to an HOA meeting in over a year, does not respond to communications unless it's something they will benefit from. Other building residents have tales of screaming matches between the owner and their now ex-spouse.) They are perfectly capable of cleaning or hiring someone. One reason they previously gave for not being able to clean was they were away at Burning Man

 

[pdxgal]

OP - This is a 4 unit HOA, with no others ? That is incredibly small if true.

Does the common area actually need cleaning weekly ? , maybe having a company clean it once every 2 weeks is fine, and not so expensive.

I picture an entrance, but maybe it's more ?

Yes, just four units. It's in a city where even two unit condo buildings are a common form of ownership.

Like the idea that cleaning could be done less often, I will pitch that in our next meeting. There's an entrance to clean, stairs, laundry area and small area outside to sweep.

Another wrinkle is that part of the cleaning duties includes putting garbage bins outside for pickup and bringing them back into the garage the next morning. That needs to be done weekly. Unfortunately no cleaners will come back just to put bins back inside. We've thought about hiring someone using TaskRabbit but can't find anyone who's insured, and we don't want the potential liability risk. We may just need to keep owners responsible for that, and fine accordingly (the city itself may issue its own fines).

 

[Teacher Terry]

Are buyers aware of this requirement before purchasing? I would think some people would not want to be responsible for these tasks.

 

[audreyh1]

Obviously a very small condo unit, but I can’t imagine buying into a situation where owners themselves are required to clean the common area.

 

[plsprius]

Another wrinkle is that part of the cleaning duties includes putting garbage bins outside for pickup and bringing them back into the garage the next morning. That needs to be done weekly. Unfortunately no cleaners will come back just to put bins back inside. We've thought about hiring someone using TaskRabbit but can't find anyone who's insured, and we don't want the potential liability risk. We may just need to keep owners responsible for that, and fine accordingly (the city itself may issue its own fines).

In my HOA we pay an extra fee to have the garbage company come in to get the bins and then to put them back after emptying them.

 

[Mark1]

....The HOA doesn't have a policy in place to address this, as this is the first time in 30 years that it's happened. ....

Wow, no issues for 30 years. That is amazing to me, unless the owner turnover has been very, very low. I would have expect issues much soon, e.g. "the Jones in unit #3, always do a lousy job cleaning", etc.

I also would expect problems going forward even if the "Burning Man" owner leaves, so I would just assume the worst and fix it permanently with a better plan than what is currently in place.

 

[pdxgal]

Agree with all of this.
I should add that an option would be to start with monthly outside cleaning, and add more visits each month if the results are unsatisfactory.

In our market the cleaning firms typically want a commitment of at least 2x/month. And honestly we probably need it

 

[pdxgal]

Volunteer efforts can work in a Condo HOA if enough people care about their property. But, normally, people buy a Cond because they don’t want or can’t do many of the things necessary to maintain a property. I would hire a cleaning company, and add the cost to the monthly fee.

The problem with refunding part of the fee for those who do a cleaning is this: What do you do about the owner who does a lousy job cleaning the common area, and then demands his fee refund? Another headache in the making.

For 30 years it's worked well. And in this particular high COLA RE market, condos are the most affordable owner-occupied housing option. Owners have always been first-time buyers, and bought their units because they were relatively cheap. The desire to save money has also been a main reason to DIY the common area cleaning over the years. Plus, the few times that owners hired outside cleaners, they didn't do as good a job as the owners.

My sense is that the market has gotten so expensive that even first-time buyers are fairly affluent, and unlike previous owners, they want to hire out maintenance tasks. The tension is that two long-term owners are not high-income, and are reluctant to raise dues for things we've always DIY'ed.

The logical thing does seem to be to hire out the cleaning. I think a part of the HOA's reluctance is because we want the non-compliant owner to pay the price, literally, for not having done their share. And we don't want to upset owner #1 over loss of their side gig, that has worked well for all parties for years. But c'est la vie, I suppose.