DK. In theory the seller is supposed to share all relevant documents, including the CC&Rs and bylaws, but I suspect they probably didn't say anything about the cleaning. However, the non-compliant owner was living in their unit as a renter for several years before buying it, so presumably saw that we did not have outside cleaners. But who knows.
Condo common area cleaning dilemma
- Thread starter pdxgal
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Wow, that'd be nice! If only that were an option for us. Too much of a liability issue no doubt.
SecondAttempt
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Be very careful here. Requiring someone to work is actually slavery even if they contractually agreed to it. It does not matter what your rules or state law says. It violates the US Constitution.
You are also asking for trouble if a disabled person ever moves in!
You could probably force them to hire a contractor of their choice but that is risky as well because if a contractor gets hurt you could face a lawsuit. You might be able to force them to use a specific contractor that is bonded and insured and vetted by your board but that might also be problematic. And what contractor is going to want to mobilize for 1 hour of work.
This just seems like an arrangement that needs to be changed for pragmatic reasons.
gauss
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I wonder if you could change bylaws so that future owners are required to pay cleaning fee while also exempting the current owners (including the deadbeat.) That my not resolve the immediate situation but it would get you on to a path to professional management in this area.
The condo that I inherited changed their bylaws and treated owners after the implementation of the change differently than before the change.
You would have to understand if this would be legally permissible under your state's condo law and if you would have the necessary votes on the HOA to change the bylaws etc to implement this.
-gauss
The condo that I inherited changed their bylaws and treated owners after the implementation of the change differently than before the change.
You would have to understand if this would be legally permissible under your state's condo law and if you would have the necessary votes on the HOA to change the bylaws etc to implement this.
-gauss
marko
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I thought one of the reasons people go to condos is that cleaning, mowing lawns, snow removal etc was taken care of by someone else.
DW had a condo before we married. Someone suggested saving money by doing their own yard work. Everybody turned the idea down.
DW had a condo before we married. Someone suggested saving money by doing their own yard work. Everybody turned the idea down.
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Right? Amazed by that. Also would expect with 4 units there are better and worse cleaners. I think it's well past the time to hire this out, not only for the current issue.
You're all going to get older, and one day someone will slip and fall while cleaning, or worse, after someone else cleaned and left a small wet spot - the expense there is going to eclipse any cleaning contract.
This new owner isn't going to start cleaning or paying fines, and fines are probably not legal here, and it will make life a whole lot messier, pardon the pun.
Music Lover
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Take a vote and hire the owner of #1 to be the cleaner.
SecondAttempt
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Not sure that is a good solution. Contractors working on common property should be bonded and ensured. If 4 vote to hire #1 then the holdout could potentially sue the board members for breach of fiduciary duty which might not be covered by their insurance!
I used to own a condo where the board, 10 years before I bought, stupidly denied an ADA accommodation request. Owner wanted to install an elevator at their expense to bypass stairs. It cost each owner at the time thousands of dollars each after the harmed owner sued. The award was $75000 in actual damages and $225,000 in punitive damages for the boards actions (issuing a fine of around $200 for a violation). There are about 100 units so I think every owner had to pay $3,000 for the court judgement. Of course the idiot board members were voted out but our insurance was still very high 10 years later! As you can imagine, our board was VERY gun shy and pretty much neutered and stayed out of the way.
I now live in a gated community where I am one of just a very few lots (~10%) that are exempted from the HOA. It is heaven to watch the happenings and know I can just say "no"!
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pb4uski
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To start with, the word is insured not ensured. That and I have NEVER run into any contractor that is bonded... period. Insured yes, bonded, never.
I've rune into performance bonds on large construction contracts, but even that is rare.
Most contractors will be insured but not all are. Whlle I concede that it is preferable to use contractors that are insured, quite often it doesn't happen.
SecondAttempt
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
To start with, the word is run not rune...we all make typos. And what does "Whlle" mean?
I deal with contractors as part of my j*b. We always require liability insurance and a performance bond even for relatively small contracts. Even our lawn service has to maintain a performance bond and liability insurance as well as proof of worker's comp, business license, tax license, and so forth. I concede this may be regional but it is far from uncommon. I don't think I would sit idly by if my condo board tried to hire someone who was not insured and in full compliance with local laws and that seems unlikely for someone who would bid on 1 hour of work per week.
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Wouldn’t the owners (#1) be considered owners even if they are cleaning common property and therefore be handled differently for insurance matters? I can’t really sue myself if I hurt myself in my own dwelling. I could see some liability issues like if they left the floor wet with no signage but workers comp and the like wouldn’t seem to apply.
Oregon Construction contractors requires a $25k bond (from memory) for every contractor on a residential job site. It is very common & not too expensive. I'm unsure if a cleaning contractor would fall under this requirement as a "home" cleaner. Probably not.
pb4uski
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Well, that's ridiculous in my experience. For a few years in the 1980s I was CFO of a design and construction management organization within a Fortune 50 company and we managed all sort of projects for the company across the US and I was very involved in most of these projects... from $250k to $25m (in 1980's $$$). While we agree on the need for insurance, we never got a performance bond that I can recall.
P.S. "ensured" isn't close to insured and e isn't anywhere close to i on the keyboard, so a typo seemed very unlikely... but if that is what you want to claim then fine.
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Teacher Terry
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In Nevada an owner can sue the HOA. This happened in my complex.
Hmmm, this is an interesting idea, definitely worth exploring. Thanks for sharing. What was the nature of the policy that had the 'grandfathering" arrangement (cleaning or something else)? And was your condo in CA by chance?
Were the owners who sued part of the HOA? Since we only have four units, all owners are part of the HOA. Our CC&Rs do have a clause that owners cannot be compensated by the HOA, so the owners who do the cleaning for the other two owners are paid by them personally.
Depends on the location and market. In our high COLA urban area the main reason to buy a condo is because they're more available and affordable than SFHs. In ours, each owner currently has the option to hire out the cleaning if they want. There's no yard work, snow removal, etc.
If we hire out the cleaning for all units it will be more costly for the currently compliant owners, by $1,000-$1600/year. Our HOA met this morning, and this proposal was not well received. Especially by the owners who already do their own cleaning, as they are lower income. So we've decided to fine a non-compliant owner for the cost to hire a cleaning company on their behalf. Will see how it goes.
Our CC&Rs say that owners cannot receive compensation by the HOA. Which kinda makes sense. Owner #1 proposed that the non-compliant owner hire them (as the other two owners already do), but was turned down.
Yes it has been rather amazing, and nice
Very low turnover, and generally agreeable and responsive folks, until now. I agree it's time to hire out the cleaning, but as of this morning votes are not currently there to do it. So we will try the fine approach and see how it goes.
SecondAttempt
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Well I actually agree but I have to follow company rules. I suspect it may have to do with Hawaii. It is not unusual at all for contractors to stop showing up for weeks or months for various reasons. I think our policy might be to both create consequences for no-shows (not being able to get future bonds) and also to simplify the process of cutting them off (claim to insurance company vs mediation/lawsuit).
For the OP I think a performance bond for 1 hr of cleaning should not be expected either. But I do think insurance is critical as is verifying they are acting legally (proper business license, liability insurance, worker's comp, paying their taxes, only using workers authorized to work in the US etc.). This is not a political statement. The HOA and individual board members can be fined for not ensuring (see, I know the right word) laws are complied with.
SecondAttempt
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Doesn't sound like this would be a violation of the rules or expose the HOA. The noncompliant owner would face any legal pitfalls.
latexman
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Just blow/sweep all the trash/debris to the doorway of Mr. Non-compliant.
gauss
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No the condo was NOT located in CA.
The change in bylaws where there was "grandfathering" for existing owners was concerned with the new limitations of renting out units to others.
There was also a change at the same time limiting occupancy for those previously convicted of sexual offender crimes. That change got them Condo thrown of the list of eligibility for FHA financing for future sales.
-gauss
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pb4uski
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It appears that you do, now anyway. I think that just making sure that the work is always ahead of the money and/or a healthy retention is just as effective in making sure that comtractors show up... "ah, you want your money, ok, show up and finish the work and you'll get your money"
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