Hybrid Car Break Even Point

[ERD50]

I had a Saturn SUV crossover which I loved. Started feeling guilty about my environmental footprint and so got the Prius. As I said, I don't drive that much. ....

A friend related a similar story to me a few years back about her husband's car trade (but the other car was a gas hog, big old Caddy/Buick?). I love noting counter-intuitive things and cognitive-dissonance, so I said to her:

Now, he doesn't drive many miles, so what if the person he sold the old gas hog to drives a lot? Won't that mean that overall, more gasoline will be used and burnt up now that bought the Prius?​

I got a scrunched up look while she contemplated this, so I just changed the subject and poured another drink. OK, I get my kicks in weird ways!


-ERD50

 

[Gumby]

I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid on the last day of 2007. With the $1500 federal tax credit and waiver of the 6% state sales tax (about $1200 worth), the price was the same as a conventionally fueled Civic. Average mpg for the Hybrid is 47. I have 193k miles on it now, so I have used 4106 gallons of gas. The conventional Civic, at 38 mpg, would have used 5079 gallons, so I've saved 973 gallons of gas. Fuel prices in CT are high. Eyeballing this chart Historical Gas Price Charts - Connecticut Gas Prices, I would estimate the average fuel cost over that time to be $3.31 per gallon, giving me fuel savings of $3220. However, I recently had to replace the hybrid battery at a cost of $2400, meaning I've saved only $820 over 7.5 years. I am hoping to drive it another 100k miles in the next four years, which should bring me further fuel savings of approximately $1670. So, say $2500 in total savings over 11.5 years. It is indeed money in my pocket, but it's not a large number, and not even as much as the original tax subsidies. After this one is done, I don't think I'll get another hybrid, especially given that I will not be commuting 100 miles a day anymore.

 

[LinCella]

Oh please don't rub it in!!!!! I'm kicking myself every day!

 

[manerac]

that's a strange reason to purchase a vehicle

Prius is the thinking person's Cadillac.

 

[Big_Hitter]

Prius is the thinking person's Cadillac.

 

[Big_Hitter]

It is indeed money in my pocket, but it's not a large number, and not even as much as the original tax subsidies. After this one is done, I don't think I'll get another hybrid, especially given that I will not be commuting 100 miles a day anymore.

that's what I call the "myth" of the mpg obsession

how much money do you really save on fuel in a cramped, small car?

let's say you drive 10000 miles a year (I drive about half that but 10K seems average)

you have a nice turbo crossover/suv that gets 20 MPG (my wife's Subaru, for example)

so that would be 10000/20*3.5 per year in fuel $1,750.00

If you "upgraded" to a 30 mpg vehicle, you'd save 1/3rd of that or $583 per year in fuel. That's less than $50 a month. Not worth it IMO.

 

[aja8888]

I thought about a Prius at one time (a while ago), but then I realized I drive 25,000 miles per year and in the greater Houston area and outside of that.

I wanted a vehicle that had good physical size, lots of storage and comfort, great mileage, and lots of power (torque).......so I bought a VW Passat diesel. Has all of the above and I can set the cruise at 75 MPH (speed limit) and still get 45 miles per gallon (with no batteries).

 

[Big_Hitter]

^^ yeah those are nice vehicles


I'll start a "proven power bragging" car thread when I get my dyno tune done tomorrow...

 

[travelover]

Car loan ... what's that?

That's something the "little people " do.

 

[ERD50]

Car loan ... what's that?

That's something the "little people " do.

What was someone saying about 'smugness'?

Sometimes they offer really attractive rates. People of means (not 'little people') may decide that's a reasonable shot at arbitraging against investments.

I know someone who qualified for an additional $600 discount (or maybe $1000?), dependent on taking out a loan. Paid the loan in fill after the first payment. Hmmm, $600 for a few $ for one month's interest? Sounds smart to me.

-ERD50

 

[Big_Hitter]

I know someone who qualified for an additional $600 discount (or maybe $1000?), dependent on taking out a loan. Paid the loan in fill after the first payment. Hmmm, $600 for a few $ for one month's interest? Sounds smart to me.

-ERD50

when I bought my ranger 3 years ago to get a $5K Ferd discount I had to take out a FMC loan - I paid it off right away


I thought it was pretty silly


got a good deal on the ranger - brand new 4x4 $19K sticker was 29K

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

Yeah, but to get those kind of incentives you usually have to buy a new car (or certified used, at least). The incentives you get up front don't make up for the depreciation that follows, IMO.

 

[Big_Hitter]

Yeah, but to get those kind of incentives you usually have to buy a new car (or certified used, at least). The incentives you get up front don't make up for the depreciation that follows, IMO.

it was new, still smells new, has under 8K on the clock

I bet KBB trade in on it is about what I paid for it - $19K


http://www.kbb.com/ford/ranger-supe...|6509384|true|4312811|true&pricetype=trade-in


yep, $21K according to KBB

 

[Chuckanut]

Now that the price of gasoline in my area has gone up almost $1.40 per gallon from its low a few years ago, I can dial up the gloat-o-meter as I drive around in my hybrid.

Note: the $1.40 increase also includes higher gas taxes passed a few years ago when the price of gasoline was near a multi-year low.

 

[ERD50]

Now that the price of gasoline in my area has gone up almost $1.40 per gallon from its low a few years ago, I can dial up the gloat-o-meter as I drive around in my hybrid.

Note: the $1.40 increase also includes higher gas taxes passed a few years ago when the price of gasoline was near a multi-year low.

How many miles do you drive a year?


We don't drive much, and split that pretty evenly between the two cars, so only ~ 6,000 miles per year on each vehicle. I don't think the math would work for us with those low miles.


But the engineering side of me is very interested in these newer hybrids that can run right up to highway speeds on electric alone, then switch to an efficient ICE to work together. They only have enough battery capacity to stay in EV mode for maybe 10~15 miles (so battery expense/space isn't as much of an issue), but that's enough for many short trips, which means you aren't doing as much start/stop of the ICE - and that's where much of the emissions are generated.


I really think that is the future, there are some new ICE designs that manage diesel-like efficiency on gasoline, with lower emissions than either.


Being able to run EV mode alone for a while means you can start up that ICE before you actually need it, and keep it disconnected from the wheels while the ICE runs a special 'warm up' mode, designed to get it warmed up into low emission mode as fast as possible, independent of the driver demands to start/stop/accelerate. And the battery/motor can take over acceleration, and allow the ICE to stay in its 'sweet spot' of power/emissions.


-ERD50

 

[street]

That is pretty cool.

 

[meierlde]

Just out of curiosity do the hybrids stay in electric mode in parking lots most of the time. Since that is low speed it would seem to be a likely mode. (also electric in reverse)

 

[meierlde]

I did a bit of figuring and the algorithm is find the difference in gallons/mi between the hybrid and non hybrid versions (1/mpg) then find the cost differential. Take say 100k miles and multiply by the gallons per mile difference and you will get a number of gallons required for 100k miles. Divide the price differential by the number of gallons and you get the break even price for a hybrid over a non hybrid (It did this with the Chevy Malibu LT vs Hybrid and for 100k miles it works out to around 2.70 a gallon.

 

[Scrapr]

Just out of curiosity do the hybrids stay in electric mode in parking lots most of the time. Since that is low speed it would seem to be a likely mode. (also electric in reverse)

Yes that is correct. In our company Prius I would "sneak up" on people in parking lots. I called it stealth mode. People can't hear you coming. And at low speed the tires don't make much noise. Kind odfhave to be careful as a driver about that

 

[CaptTom]

And to think we mainly bought it for the wonderful feeling of superiority it gives us.

 

[Chuckanut]

I drive anywhere from 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year.

My original break even point was approx 60,000 miles. But the past few year’s drop in gasoline prices has moved it to about 80,000 miles. Since I intend to drive it well over 100,000 miles - ill still do OK, just not as OK as before. . It also has a 600 mile range driving at normal highway speed - 65 mph.

Mine is a 2012 model. The 2018 models get even better mileage. Check out a 2018 Camry 51/53. It’s at least 10% better than my 2012.

 

[ERD50]

I drive anywhere from 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year.

My original break even point was approx 60,000 miles. But the past few year’s drop in gasoline prices has moved it to about 80,000 miles. Since I intend to drive it well over 100,000 miles - ill still do OK, just not as OK as before. . It also has a 600 mile range driving at normal highway speed - 65 mph.

Mine is a 2012 model. The 2018 models get even better mileage. Check out a 2018 Camry 51/53. It’s at least 10% better than my 2012.

Does that break even analysis take into account the cost of capital? I find most times that is ignored. But 6 years of some assumed gain (4%?) isn't peanuts, depending on what your cost differential was.


-ERD50

 

[Alan]

Just out of curiosity do the hybrids stay in electric mode in parking lots most of the time. Since that is low speed it would seem to be a likely mode. (also electric in reverse)

Mine usually stays in electric mode when reversing but when the engine is cold when I first start it up the ICE comes on pretty quickly, so if I know that I am just doing a bit of maneuvering such as getting the car in and out of the garage then immediately after pressing the power button I press the EV mode button. It will then stay in EV mode until either the battery power drops too low or the speed goes over 15mph.

I did consider a plug-in version of the hybrid where it would stay on battery power for up to 30 minutes at highway speeds but we don’t do enough mileage to really justify the extra cost.

 

[Music Lover]

Being able to run EV mode alone for a while means you can start up that ICE before you actually need it, and keep it disconnected from the wheels while the ICE runs a special 'warm up' mode, designed to get it warmed up into low emission mode as fast as possible, independent of the driver demands to start/stop/accelerate. And the battery/motor can take over acceleration, and allow the ICE to stay in its 'sweet spot' of power/emissions.


-ERD50

Running an engine just to warm it up but not using it to move the vehicle is a waste of fuel. It will warm up faster under load, plus is moving the vehicle at the same time.

 

[ERD50]

Running an engine just to warm it up but not using it to move the vehicle is a waste of fuel. It will warm up faster under load, plus is moving the vehicle at the same time.

True, but that's not what they do. Their engineers are pretty smart.

They can start the ICE and load it optimally at each stage of warm up by adjusting the generator load - which would be charging the batteries and/or providing juice directly to the electric drive motors. And/or connect it to the drive wheels if that fits the profile at that time.

That is far better than what happens w/o a hybrid with a full EV mode. You start the engine, and it has to do whatever you tell it to. For some people, that sometimes means accelerating up to highway speeds before the engine has fully warmed up. That is far from optimal.

That's the advantage of a full EV mode (though it may have very limited EV-mode range) - the ICE can be disconnected form the wheels when that is optimal. Do with the ICE whatever is needed to optimize fuel consumption and emissions. Then engage the ICE to the wheels when that is optimal. It's a very flexible system.

And it is important for max efficiency that the engine can be connected to the drive wheels when that fits. Connecting directly eliminates the losses of generating electricity (mechanical to electrical conversion) and then converting it back from electrical to mechanical with the motor. Or worse, to have to use the battery as an intermediate step, then you add battery charge/discharge losses to that.

-ERD50