Hybrid Car Break Even Point

[Chuckanut]

Does that break even analysis take into account the cost of capital? I find most times that is ignored. But 6 years of some assumed gain (4%?) isn't peanuts, depending on what your cost differential was.


-ERD50

Good Point. The answer is no.

Back when the I bought the car I really thought that gasoline would be headed to $4 a gallon and more. That would have really juiced the payback! That prediction proved about as good as my interest rate predictions.

A quick back of the envelope estimate using 7% return for investments indicates that I may have to go about 100,000 miles to get my opportunity cost back. Calculating the payback reminds me of calculating the break even age for taking SS. If only we could predict the future. Note: according to GasBuddy my area has some of the most expensive gasoline in the USA.

 

[48Fire]

Here's an interesting site that show the potential breakeven points of buying a hybrid auto versus a regular gasoline automobile. Play around with the Personalize button to see how a change in gas prices affects the the breakeven period.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybridCompare.jsp

I noticed that the breakeven point for my car changes about 2.5 years per $1 change in gasoline prices.

Interesting chart, thanks for sharing. We just bought a Honda Clarity Plug-in Hybrid. It's very similar to the Honda Accord, and the MSRP compares very closely. Regular Accord is $36,690, Hybrid is $35,600, and the Honda Clarity we bought is $36,600. Plus, we get a $7,500 tax CREDIT. Seems like an easy call for us.

The technology is really cool, too. The rating for EPA is 110 equivalent MPG. So far we have used only 2.1 gallons of gas, and traveled 531 miles, so 252 MPG, not considering the cost of electricity.

I love watching the dashboard display which shows when the car is regenerating electrical charge. I probably will cause some road rage as I slow down without using my brakes

One review I read on the car was that it was engineered for engineers. I liked that, too.

Gone are the days when you felt you needed to take a hit on buying a car to get a hybrid or plug-in.

 

[Chuckanut]

I love watching the dashboard display which shows when the car is regenerating electrical charge. I probably will cause some road rage as I slow down without using my brakes

One review I read on the car was that it was engineered for engineers. I liked that, too.

I'm glad you like the car. I will take a look at it just to satisfy my own curiosity.

The more I learn about the tech in my 2012 car the more interesting the car becomes. They really have thought this through. The modern ones must be even better to get mileage near 50 mpg in a car the size of a Camry or Accord.

Oh, use your cars actual brakes when necessary. Ultimately no energy is saved if you get into an accident.

 

[ERD50]

.... The rating for EPA is 110 equivalent MPG. ...

While I think hybrids can make a lot of sense for people who put enough miles on their car, I absolutely hate this "equivalent MPG" rating.

It makes no sense, and that makes it misleading. You simply cannot use one number to represent a combination of two different things like that. So they should not do it.

What they should say is - you get X miles/kWh for the first Y miles, then you get X MPG after that.

That is two different numbers, combining them makes no sense.

-ERD50

 

[48Fire]

I'm glad you like the car. I will take a look at it just to satisfy my own curiosity.

Oh, use your cars actual brakes when necessary. Ultimately no energy is saved if you get into an accident.

Haha, that's true. I mostly use the Advanced Cruise Control, which brakes automatically with four, different distances to the car in front.

 

[48Fire]

While I think hybrids can make a lot of sense for people who put enough miles on their car, I absolutely hate this "equivalent MPG" rating.

It makes no sense, and that makes it misleading. You simply cannot use one number to represent a combination of two different things like that. So they should not do it.

What they should say is - you get X miles/kWh for the first Y miles, then you get X MPG after that.

That is two different numbers, combining them makes no sense.

-ERD50

Haha, and offer on-board calculus I think it just simplifies the math for most people I doubt that most people can't tell you what a kWh costs, or maybe even what it means.

 

[ERD50]

Haha, and offer on-board calculus I think it just simplifies the math for most people I doubt that most people can't tell you what a kWh costs, or maybe even what it means.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. By trying to combine two different numbers into one, what they did is complicate it, not simplify it at all. It might take calculus to break out what they really meant. That single number is only good for the one condition they specify ( X miles under EV mode, Y miles under gas mode), and AFAIK, that condition isn't even spelled out. And if that is not your condition, it is fairly complex to reverse-engineer it. Not so if they just tell you the two separate numbers.

And they could use the national average, of ~ 0.11$/kWh to put that into a $/mile number.

Along the same lines, MPG doesn't tell a consumer the fuel costs to drive a mile either. And the European method of Fuel/distance (Liters/Kilometer) is a far better method - the math works much better for comparisons than distance/fuel (Miles/Gallon).

-ERD50

 

[aja8888]

While I think hybrids can make a lot of sense for people who put enough miles on their car, I absolutely hate this "equivalent MPG" rating.

It makes no sense, and that makes it misleading. You simply cannot use one number to represent a combination of two different things like that. So they should not do it.

What they should say is - you get X miles/kWh for the first Y miles, then you get X MPG after that.

That is two different numbers, combining them makes no sense.

-ERD50

It's clearly a marketing gimmick for people who have little or no understanding of what they are buying from a conceptual basis.

 

[ERD50]

It's clearly a marketing gimmick for people who have little or no understanding of what they are buying from a conceptual basis.

Yes, but the supposed purpose of Government mandated labeling is to provide useful information to the consumer, in order to cut through the marketing gimmicks.

And an "equivalent MPG" figure doesn't do that. It is a marketing gimmick. Just the opposite of what it should be.

-ERD50

 

[aja8888]

And an "equivalent MPG" figure doesn't do that. It is a marketing gimmick. Just the opposite of what it should be.

-ERD50

That's what I said...it's a marketing gimmick.

 

[48Fire]

That's what I said...it's a marketing gimmick.

Hmmm...."Marketing gimmick" seems a little harsh. I think they are just trying to provide a common standard for us simpletons to make easy comparisons.

 

[mpeirce]

While I think hybrids can make a lot of sense for people who put enough miles on their car, I absolutely hate this "equivalent MPG" rating.

It makes no sense, and that makes it misleading. You simply cannot use one number to represent a combination of two different things like that. So they should not do it.

It's really sad diesels are being drummed off the face of the planet.

My 2014 Mercedes E250 has gotten over 50 "real" mpg (albeit diesel fuel) a few times when I really tried for it. "Normally" on a trip driving the interstates between 70 and 80 mph it gets over 40 mpg.

This is a car with a curb weight of 4365 lbs that I've driven 130 mpg on the autobahn - not that it got 50 mpg that day!

Sadly, I doubt MB sells another diesel in the US.

 

[ERD50]

That's what I said...it's a marketing gimmick.

I am agreeing with you. But the Government mandated labeling should be cutting thorough marketing gimmicks, and providing solid information to the consumer. It isn't.

Hmmm...."Marketing gimmick" seems a little harsh. I think they are just trying to provide a common standard for us simpletons to make easy comparisons.

But it fails to do this. It is only true under one specific condition. One that the consumer might not match.

An analogy to illustrate:

A supplier offers Widgets for $10 in single quantities, $9 if you buy 10-50, and $7 if you buy 51-100.

Now give me one number for the cost of a Widget. If you do, I need to reverse engineer that to figure out what quantity was being purchased. And I need the full info to do it anyhow.

The simple description is to spell it out as it is, a $ amount at each quantity. You cannot express that with one number. You could do it with an Nth order polynomial, but that is what is beyond the average consumer.

-ERD50

 

[Chuckanut]

One other rthing about electric plug-in vehicles....

So far many states have let slide the fact that owners of these cars don't pay state gas taxes that fund the highways. That is and will continue to change. I see no reason for people who drive gasoline powered vehicles to subsidize roads for those who drive electric vehicles.

My state is currently looking at a roads tax based upon total miles driven each year. How they would do this is beyond me. And, will it replace the gas tax or be piled on top? Or will they be merged together?

 

[Music Lover]

Perhaps instead of providing subsidies to those who purchase electric cars, a "road tax" should be charged at the point of purchase that would recover the lost revenue over the expected lifespan of the vehicle.

 

[nash031]

Perhaps instead of providing subsidies to those who purchase electric cars, a "road tax" should be charged at the point of purchase that would recover the lost revenue over the expected lifespan of the vehicle.

I can’t imagine a more powerful disincentive to purchasing a hybrid given the opportunity cost of that additional tax added to the already additional expense of hybrid vehicles. That would seem like a marked step backwards for the hybrid market.

Something like rolling an additional tax into annual registration or license fees would make much more sense, perhaps even basing it off of gross vehicle weight to compensate for potential for road damage. If this was done, then eliminate the road tax from fuel charges.

 

[Music Lover]

I can’t imagine a more powerful disincentive to purchasing a hybrid given the opportunity cost of that additional tax added to the already additional expense of hybrid vehicles. That would seem like a marked step backwards for the hybrid market.

I guess it's too much to expect people to be "green" if the money comes out of their pocket instead of other people's pockets...

 

[aja8888]

I can’t imagine a more powerful disincentive to purchasing a hybrid given the opportunity cost of that additional tax added to the already additional expense of hybrid vehicles. That would seem like a marked step backwards for the hybrid market.

Something like rolling an additional tax into annual registration or license fees would make much more sense, perhaps even basing it off of gross vehicle weight to compensate for potential for road damage. If this was done, then eliminate the road tax from fuel charges.

(My bold above). Anyone care to give an example as to when the last time (or any time) a large tax such as the road fuel tax was repealed?

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

Sadly, I doubt MB sells another diesel in the US.

German cities got clearance this year to ban diesel vehicles because of excessive nitrous oxide emissions. Hamburg is in the process of limiting their operation in parts of the city. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/27/german-court-rules-cities-can-ban-diesel-cars-combat-air-pollution/

 

[cooch96]

I recently test drove the Hyundai ioniq. I was impressed. Sport mode was responsive, if not very sporty. Expected combined mpg in sport mode is 50, and nearly 60mpg in standard mode. Roomy, fairly intuitive dash controls, decent creature features, and looked good. Also affordable compared to other mid sized hatchbacks and sedans, ICE or hybrids.

I also looked at the plug-in version but didn’t drive it. The extra battery bank for the plug-in cut into storage room considerably and added a lot of weight.

I’d say the ioniq is the first hybrid I’d heartily endorse as an all-purpose car. I never did like the looks of the Prius.

 

[aja8888]

I’d say the ioniq is the first hybrid I’d heartily endorse as an all-purpose car. I never did like the looks of the Prius.

I test drove one too recently (Not the plug in version). Very nice and sporty and roomy. Much different than the appliance-like feel of the Prius and looks a lot better also.

 

[nash031]

I guess it's too much to expect people to be "green" if the money comes out of their pocket instead of other people's pockets...

First off, I don't really think this comment is appropriate for this forum.

Second, what I proposed as my counter affects everyone the same since everyone - regardless of vehicle - pays some kind of registration fee/license tax, and could have a road tax assessed for usage unless they are a planned non-operator (PNO). The GVW suggestion factors in those vehicles which tend to do the most damage to the roads which seems more fair than paying a road use tax based on gas mileage and city vs. highway driving as we do now.

No, I don't think it would be fair to pay for unused gasoline taxes up front when someone might own that car over the course of 10 years considering the time-value of money. If I were a hybrid owner, I'd have no problem paying the same road tax as everyone else. Under the current systems, that's not the case and I think it should change, but that change should not be punitive to the hybrid owner, as the suggestion to which I responded was.

 

[Music Lover]

First off, I don't really think this comment is appropriate for this forum.

Second, what I proposed as my counter affects everyone the same since everyone - regardless of vehicle - pays some kind of registration fee/license tax, and could have a road tax assessed for usage unless they are a planned non-operator (PNO). The GVW suggestion factors in those vehicles which tend to do the most damage to the roads which seems more fair than paying a road use tax based on gas mileage and city vs. highway driving as we do now.

No, I don't think it would be fair to pay for unused gasoline taxes up front when someone might own that car over the course of 10 years considering the time-value of money. If I were a hybrid owner, I'd have no problem paying the same road tax as everyone else. Under the current systems, that's not the case and I think it should change, but that change should not be punitive to the hybrid owner, as the suggestion to which I responded was.

I don't think my comment was out of line...too many "green" initiatives exist only because someone else pays for them.

Perhaps the easiest way to recover a road tax would be to build the fee into the charging stations, just like the road tax is built into the price of a gallon of gas. Charge $$ per unit of electricity used and then it's taxed the same way gasoline powered vehicles are taxed...

 

[aja8888]

I don't think my comment was out of line...too many "green" initiatives exist only because someone else pays for them.

Perhaps the easiest way to recover a road tax would be to build the fee into the charging stations, just like the road tax is built into the price of a gallon of gas. Charge $$ per unit of electricity used and then it's taxed the same way gasoline powered vehicles are taxed...

I have to agree. The best thing to do for all is to get rid of the state and federal tax credits for starters and level that playing field for auto pricing.

If you do a check, the companies that are installing the fast charger stations for electric cars are instituting fees for charging. I don't know if the fees are primarily for the power suppliers or a portion goes to states for road maintenance, but things are changing for the hybrid/electric car markets.

I think over time there won't be a free lunch for the power users.

Heck, in CA, the increases in fuel taxes don't necessarily go to highway maintenance anyway, and their taxes are off the map already.

 

[Totoro]

And the European method of Fuel/distance (Liters/Kilometer) is a far better method

Actually, one the confusing things of moving to the Netherlands from Belgium (right next door!) is that the Dutch talk about kilometers / liter, and the Belgians talk about liters / 100 kilometer.


Go figure ..


Personally, I prefer two numbers: how much it costs (liters / 100 kilometer) and how far I can go on one tank.