Incompetence can come slowly - what is your strategy?

[Totoro]

I have an uncle in a similar situation. Just curious -- are there any particular tools you could recommend to uncover stray accounts like that?

Out here (Belgium/Netherlands) there is a central register of "orphaned accounts": where the owner can no longer be contacted or the account has become dormant. Banks have to report there.

Before it gets that far though many years have to pass. Pretty much the only tactic until then I heard of is to contact all the well-known banks and ask if they have an account in that name (in tandem with POA documentation). Sometimes going through a notary helps speeding up the process.

Searching by hand through known bank statements can uncover payments ingoing or outgoing.

 

[Walt34]

A bank or other financial institution will only honor this POA document you have signed if you hand it to the institution yourself.

It can depend on the bank, or perhaps state laws.

DW didn't have any issues taking over her father's finances but there were a few unusual elements:

1. Small-town bank, three branches.

2. FIL had his accounts there for 20+ years and came in weekly, DW was known to almost all staff.

3. Branch manager and bank president were cast straight out of "It's a Wonderful Life" George Baily characters.

4. Well before DW took over we'd met with the bank president to discuss a mortgage (house had been paid off but this was for fixing up things prior to selling) so the president & branch manager knew it was probably coming.

Admittedly perhaps we got lucky but we never had any issues with getting the POA accepted.

 

[KCGeezer]

DS and I have been the successor trustees for DM for many years and just had to go through this with her. DS has been paying the bills from mom's accounts for her (we are both signatories) for 3-4 years. We finally convinced her to sell the house and move to an independent living apartment 2 years ago after several issues with 'well this nice young man called and...". In the last year the downhill progression continued and we decided we needed to have co-trustee rights on her trust as well.

Surprisingly, we called and the attorney who had done her trust and will 25+ years ago (when dad died) was still practicing and made the necessary updates with limited expense and drama. I think he and the witnesses from his office that attested to her 'sound mind' understood we may have waited a bit too long but it was definitely what she would have wanted.

As for DW and I, we're each aware of the account details and are willing and able to handle the financials, hopefully for many more years to come. We've broached the topic and expected paperwork with both kids but haven't yet gone into any detail with them. Probably need to make sure our documentation is updated within the next 5 years or so and get both kids up to speed.

 

[Running_Man]

Most of the comments are being directed at having Alzheimers but from what I have read as everyone gets older one of the key things that is lost is the ability to be skeptical and a tendency as one ages to become more and more gullible, regardless of whether dementia is an issue or not,

In this study 40 percent of healthy older adults had poor decision making ability and were susceptible to scamming.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2008/01/15/34338.aspx
As a consequence of this, criminals attack this same age group more than any other because of the success they have in creating plausible scenarios. The idea that as you age you will be able to maintain the same level of financial sophistication you had in your 50’s and 60’s, regardless of dementia is unlikely.

 

[spncity]

It can depend on the bank, or perhaps state laws.
snip
Admittedly perhaps we got lucky but we never had any issues with getting the POA accepted.

Agree. I should have said the bank likely may not honor the POA unless you hand it to them yourself. There can be a wide variation in their practices.

 

[old woman]

I hope to use my nephew that is 21 years younger than me, he offered. He has been slow to mature just cashed out his 401K to buy a better house. I think he will be honest and seems to be doing better than when he was younger. He did just charge 7K of new countertops for the new house and has zero in retirement savings for him and his wife. I hope he matures more before I need his help, his sister isn't any better. I expect to always be skeptical, mom was and got more skeptical as she aged.

 

[anethum]

About the time that my dad turned 90 he said to me, "I'm think I'm starting to lose it." He was right. Over the next 4 years his vascular dementia gradually worsened. My mom was still OK but she had never handled their financial affairs. I had financial POA and I began to handle things. Initially, it was largely a matter of doing my parents' tax returns.

When my dad had a stroke and needed 24/7 home care, I made sure that my mom had enough money in her checking account to pay the wonderful nurses during the 8 additional months that he lived. I had to make decisions about which assets it made the most sense to sell from a tax and investment standpoint.

Dad died about 2 years ago, and just 6 months after that, my mom began to exhibit signs of dementia herself. My mom has steadfastly resisted moving out of the house she has lived in for the past 60 years. About a month ago at age 95, mom fell and now she needs home care. Here we go again.

As for me, I named a trusted friend to take over my financial affairs if I am medically certified to be incapable of handling them myself.

 

[Philliefan33]

Most of the comments are being directed at having Alzheimers but from what I have read as everyone gets older one of the key things that is lost is the ability to be skeptical and a tendency as one ages to become more and more gullible, regardless of whether dementia is an issue or not,

In this study 40 percent of healthy older adults had poor decision making ability and were susceptible to scamming.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2008/01/15/34338.aspx
As a consequence of this, criminals attack this same age group more than any other because of the success they have in creating plausible scenarios. The idea that as you age you will be able to maintain the same level of financial sophistication you had in your 50’s and 60’s, regardless of dementia is unlikely.

This hit home with me. I'm wondering if this is what is happening with my parents. In the past year, they have purchased one time share that I know of and become members of some sort of "Preferred buyer" club somehow associated with Holland America. At this time they have plenty of money so I'm not concerned that these two purchases will leave them destitute, but they are not the kinds of things that my parents would typically fall for.

Maybe it's time I start asking for more details of their finances. How does one do that without invading their privacy? Maybe it can't be done without risking some hard feelings...

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

This is a very timely subject for me. My Dad still lives independently (Mom died a few years ago) and has been doing very well for almost being 90. I have noticed recently that his "logical reasoning" seems to be "skewed" a little bit. I thought I may be going crazy and when I ask relatives (that see him once every few months) if they notice anything different, they have said "NO".

Fast forward to this thread. Someone mentioned the sweepstakes deal and it piqued my curiosity. He has been playing PCH online stuff for a while, but I didn't think anything about it. But then I thought about the survival food he has bought and his questions about buying gold and silver. Anyway, a quick look through his email shows that he has spent a not insignificant amount of $$$ on health related "medicines/etc." He also ordered some sort of coin/coins that I know was shipped but I can't determine *exactly* what he ordered. So, the time to "get personal" is here. I am his POA for everything and the executor of his estate. He trusts me 100% with his finances...but...I am am not sure how to broach the subject of "taking over" his estate.

So, what say YOU? How best to discuss this with someone who is still fairly "there" but obviously making bad financial decisions?

Oh yes...it should be noted that my Dad *does* have a substantial estate, and a large chuck of it is *very* liquid.

 

[imoldernu]

There are a number of websites that lead to state government's listing of unclaimed money. Here's one:
https://www.missingmoney.com/
Be careful, as there are some sites that can be scams... Google "found money" for more.

Several years ago I posted my name onthe state of my birth, and found 2 listings... one for under $100 ($70 bank account) and one that was listed to my name at the address where I lived the first year of my life, 79 years ago. It was a child 's insurance policy for $500, that I never knew about.

Definitely worth a try. the money is kept in states coffers until claimed. Estimated at nearly 60 billion dollars.

 

[MichaelB]

John Donne comes to mind - "No man is an island".

There is no way to plan for this by oneself. You need to trust another, someone else, and if the worst case does appear, turn over to your trusted friend or companion some part of the decision making that affects your life, including financial, medical and lifestyle.

Specific to this, one lesson I've learned from personal experience is to slowly build over time a relationship of trust with someone else, so that if the need does arrive, it's not a big change, but just another small step.

 

[MissMolly]

There are a number of websites that lead to state government's listing of unclaimed money. Here's one:
https://www.missingmoney.com/
Be careful, as there are some sites that can be scams... Google "found money" for more.

Several years ago I posted my name onthe state of my birth, and found 2 listings... one for under $100 ($70 bank account) and one that was listed to my name at the address where I lived the first year of my life, 79 years ago. It was a child 's insurance policy for $500, that I never knew about.

Definitely worth a try. the money is kept in states coffers until claimed. Estimated at nearly 60 billion dollars.

I have always made a habit of checking this once a year. Never any money. Then you linked to this website so for giggles I checked it out. Lo and behold! I have $15.64 waiting for me! Thanks!!

 

[GravitySucks]

I have an uncle in a similar situation. Just curious -- are there any particular tools you could recommend to uncover stray accounts like that?

Imolder posted one site already, but you could also Google the State Comptrollers office of unclaimed funds for those states your Uncle has lived in.
This will only find nonactive accounts though.

 

[Running_Man]

This hit home with me. I'm wondering if this is what is happening with my parents. In the past year, they have purchased one time share that I know of and become members of some sort of "Preferred buyer" club somehow associated with Holland America. At this time they have plenty of money so I'm not concerned that these two purchases will leave them destitute, but they are not the kinds of things that my parents would typically fall for.

Maybe it's time I start asking for more details of their finances. How does one do that without invading their privacy? Maybe it can't be done without risking some hard feelings...

In my case with my wife’s parents who were signing up for many sweepstakes I printed out several articles about tactics people take to take advantage of senior citizens, after reading they decided to no longer sign up for sweepstakes. Perhaps just articles about how people take advantage of older people given to them without questioning what they have done will resonate enough with them to question their actions while still shartp

 

[Walt34]

So, what say YOU? How best to discuss this with someone who is still fairly "there" but obviously making bad financial decisions?

With my mother it was actually my older sister who noticed that Mom was having difficulty with finances, and asked if she'd like some help with it, answer was yes, so I took it on. I lived the closest, 20 minutes away, the other two siblings were an hour each so I was the logical choice and I didn't mind, a bit of payback for all she did for me. At the time I was working in the fraud section so this kept my skepticism at a pretty high level, and I noticed a check written in handwriting not my mother's but signed by her. When I asked what the check was for she couldn't remember - this was a huge red flag.

At that point I took everything financial home and set up a separate checking account for her that I could oversee online and kept ~$500 in it so she could do her normal shopping, but if someone scammed her it wouldn't be a financial catastrophe. And then I wrote the checks for her CCRC rent and any other bills like cable TV and such.

Trust was not an issue, she trusted all three of us and that trust was not misplaced.

She passed away about six months later, so this made handling the estate much easier because I already knew all the financial details.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

With my mother it was actually my older sister who noticed that Mom was having difficulty with finances, and asked if she'd like some help with it, answer was yes, so I took it on. I lived the closest, 20 minutes away, the other two siblings were an hour each so I was the logical choice and I didn't mind, a bit of payback for all she did for me. At the time I was working in the fraud section so this kept my skepticism at a pretty high level, and I noticed a check written in handwriting not my mother's but signed by her. When I asked what the check was for she couldn't remember - this was a huge red flag.

At that point I took everything financial home and set up a separate checking account for her that I could oversee online and kept ~$500 in it so she could do her normal shopping, but if someone scammed her it wouldn't be a financial catastrophe. And then I wrote the checks for her CCRC rent and any other bills like cable TV and such.

Trust was not an issue, she trusted all three of us and that trust was not misplaced.

She passed away about six months later, so this made handling the estate much easier because I already knew all the financial details.

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it. I am waiting to discuss this with another family member (who lives a considerable distance from me) to see how I might bring this up without offending Dad. I have always had a very good relationship w/ my Dad and as far as I know, he trusts me implicitly. When we set up the POA, we did it in lieu of actually putting me on the accounts for liability reasons; I am now thinking this might have been a bad idea.

I think I have been living in la-la land in that his cognitive abilities have not been effected substantially, but there seems to be good evidence that it has. I just hope I will be able to reasonably articulate this to him without offending him.

One glimmer of hope is the history we have with Mom. She had pretty severe dementia and she never really "saw" it. I think if I can bring up specifics of how my Dad is doing/saying similar things perhaps it will make it easier.

 

[marko]

One can read about the elderly being scammed in many ways. It doesn't much matter if you have a lot of money or a little money if the scammers get it all.

So, whether you are like harley and me (or not) what is your plan to prevent your financial suicide aided by scammers and other criminals...?

Mom is 87 and quite sharp. However long ago we developed a plan which she follows to the letter: anytime someone calls/visits/asks her about money/spending/home improvements/banking she says "Oh, you have to call my son about that".

She likes it because it lets me be the bad guy and she never has to say no. At some point DW and I will appoint a similar stop-gap person.

 

[Walt34]

When we set up the POA, we did it in lieu of actually putting me on the accounts for liability reasons; I am now thinking this might have been a bad idea.

Depending on state law that might be a good idea. I had myself joint on the checking accounts, but if I had been sued for something that would have put that amount at risk, about five figures. In hindsight that was probably a bad idea. Everything else remained in Mom's name only.

She did have a POA but it required two doctors to sign off on it, and as someone else mentioned they don't do that lightly. This was probably at the recommendation of her attorney, who likely saw many instances of the kids cleaning out their parent's accounts. To my knowledge there were never any trust issues.

 

[Lsbcal]

Incompetence? It won't happen to me.

My thought is that DW would detect something. We'd discuss things and face reality. Then we'd turn more asset management over to Vanguard and pay the fees to have this done regularly.

VG has money management available now but I bet it will be more robust 10 years from now. By then VG should have something in place to cover old age incompetence money management issues. We are on the leading edge of the baby boom so this is going to be an issue for many.

There, problem solved. Now I can go back to being a totally competent guy.

 

[Dash man]

We have the majority of our assets in a Trust and will have USAA start managing the investments at the first sign of our inability to manage them. As things progress we'll have them manage our bills. Our blended family and questionable influence of some in laws made us decide to keep family out of it except for some basic decisions such as distribution of personal items not specifically mentioned in our will that pours everything else into the trust.

 

[GravitySucks]

I've given POA to my DDs. Luckily they're very trustworthy. DD #1 works in finance, knows my philosophies concerning money and will keep me on track. I will probably place a larger percent in annuities when I get older to protect myself from scams.
I'm sure both will not hesitate to tell me when I start to loose it. In fact they had no problems telling me I must be off my rocker 15 years ago when they were teenagers.

 

[Lsbcal]

I've given POA to my DDs. Luckily they're very trustworthy. DD #1 works in finance, knows my philosophies concerning money and will keep me on track. I will probably place a larger percent in annuities when I get older to protect myself from scams.
I'm sure both will not hesitate to tell me when I start to loose it. In fact they had no problems telling me I must be off my rocker 15 years ago when they were teenagers.

Sounds like you have some rock solid daughters.

My thought, annuities = scams
... but maybe I've lost it already.

 

[Taxman59]

Long Story

As a family, we experienced the incompetence issue with my Father. I am the only son, and I prepare their taxes. When he would send me various bills and check stubs, I began to notice past due fees and threats of cancellation. I asked Dad about it, and he always had an answer. The 4 kids and Mom all decided that it was time to consolidate the investments (he had about 25 stock certificates in the safe in the basement, and the dividends were mailed to the house. Only about 75 % of the checks were deposited in a timely manner! ).
I arranged to be at their house the same weekend as a class reunion for a sister (DS2). That meant that 3 of the children would be at the house for a weekend (one, DS3 lived about 4 blocks away). The eldest sister DS1 (Dad's favorite) had to work and couldn't make it, but was fully on board. One of my BILs is an insurance agent and investment advisor (no, we don't rely on him for investment advise, that's another story), so when my DS2 came to the house for her reunion, she brought stock transfer forms for Mom and Dad. We managed to start a conversation about the stock in the basement and the fact that the safe weighed over 1500 lbs (no one was going to remove that safe without serious equipment!). DS3 went down and got the "papers" from the safe, both the stocks and other paperwork. After a few minutes of lively discussion (making sure Dad was involved, but not guiding the conversation, Mom "decided" that her stocks should all be transferred to a brokerage account with my BIL. DS3, an attorney, started filling out the transfer forms for Mom and for Dad. when she was done, we managed to get a notary to witness Mom sign her forms, and the pressure on Dad was too much and he relented (though he did threaten to call DS1 and get her to side with him). DS2 left for the airport with the paperwork and it was out of Dad's hands.

For the following week, I was going through their checking account simplifying the bills (in the north, the gas and electric companies love to have family members call to set up direct pay plans for their parents, apparently, the risk of fraud is much lower than the liability and bad press of an elderly person freezing to death due to non-payment of bills). We added my sister as a signer (not an owner) on the checking account (the bank refused to accept the POA that we had. My DS took off the loving daughter hat, and put on her legal hat, and asked the branch manager to contact legal and have them explain to her that a legal POA doesn't have to be on the Bank's form. After much arguing (which embarrassed Mom at first, then made us all laugh), the Bank's legal department accepted the POA and apologized to all of us for the misunderstanding.

When I left, all of the stocks were in a brokerage where the dividends would be deposited, not mailed to the house, the bills were nearly set on automatic draft, my DS3 was a signer on all of the accounts, and Mom and Dad could relax. Mom thanked all of us profusely for the next 6-8 months as she saw no more past due bills and wasn't worried that the money was running out. At Thanksgiving, I called and after talking with Mom, asked to talk with Dad. He was very sullen and when I asked why, he responded "Why shouldn't I be, you cut my b*lls off!" I don't think he ever forgave me for taking the control away from him, but it was the right thing to do. My sisters couldn't have done it (Dad was old school and it was the man's job to handle finances) without a lot more fighting and tearing up the family. As it was, Mom and my sisters thanked me for recognizing the problem and taking the "hit" in the resolution. Every one's situation is different, so take my example with a grain of salt.

BTW, Dad died about 6 years later, and Mom is glad that the finances are being overseen by DS3 and I. She pays her bills (though at 89, she is giving that up as well) and asks questions about her overall situation, but is not worried about $$.

 

[frank2009]

I have a friend that I trust enough to help with financial matters. However she is older than me so I don't know. My plan is to put whatever I left in to Vanguard Managed Payout and automate bill paying as much as possible.

There's still problems like completing tax returns and unanticipated events so my solution is far from perfect.

 

[Chuckanut]

I don't think he ever forgave me for taking the control away from him, but it was the right thing to do. My sisters couldn't have done it (Dad was old school and it was the man's job to handle finances) without a lot more fighting and tearing up the family. As it was, Mom and my sisters thanked me for recognizing the problem and taking the "hit" in the resolution. Every one's situation is different, so take my example with a grain of salt.
.

Thanks for sharing your story. I'm glad yours had a happy ending.

My father was similar in that he thought the 'Papa' should rule the roost. Period. What he forgot was that at a certain age in 'the old country" the papa gave control of the family farm/business to the oldest son who was then obligated to take care of both parents, find a good position for any younger sons, and take care of his sisters until he could marry them off to another man's family. (Sorry about that ladies, that's just the way it was.)

Sometimes people forget, or don't want to remember, that all coins are two sided.