Jerry Falwell dead

[Non sequitur]

All religious extremists and yes Falwell was an extremist are and were dangerous.

Correct.

 

[Brat]

All religious extremists and yes Falwell was an extremist are and were dangerous.

ditto

He was also knowingly manipulative of the press and, in my opinion, people of faith.

 

[bosco]

I'm willing to bet (but am too lazy to go back and search the archives) that a lot of those expressing outrage at the opinions expressed at Falwell's death were willing to express happiness when Saddam Hussein was hung. So is that hypocrisy? No matter how evil someone is, is bad to be happy when someone is "out of action?"

 

[youbet]

I'm willing to bet (but am too lazy to go back and search the archives) that a lot of those expressing outrage at the opinions expressed at Falwell's death were willing to express happiness when Saddam Hussein was hung.

I'll disagree with ya on that one. I think you're wrong.

 

[Martha]

Falwell was a public figure so personal criticisms are not unexpected.
So, for example, when people jump all over Micheal Moore here I also am not surprised. Or Rush Limbaugh. Or Al Franken.

But no one advances their position by being hurtful to other posters. Bringing up LGFNB's recently dead mother to critique his use of "s.o.b." is over the line. So is another poster saying "shut the **** up." So settle down.

If I had been around before, I would have edited these references out. But it is too late now.

EDIT: Apologies to Youbet, I didn't mean to imply you were the one who said "shut the **** up." I modified the language of my post accordingly.

 

[laurence]

Laurence - I can certainly understand the anger about this man's teachings. I don't agree with any of them. Comparing them to Muslim imams who advocate the death of all Americans is so far of a stretch that I think it makes you look a little silly however.

Having disagreements with a person's teachings does not make it right to gloat and celebrate the fact that a man died (at least in my book). You may not be religious, but in MY heart I have to believe that the creator looks down with severe disdain on anybody who celebrates another man's death. As for Khan's comment that they should be happy that he's headed to heaven. While they might believe that, you should know that most grieving is for those left behind, not those that died.

As for the commend on UBL and how all of us "right wingers" will be celebrating. when a man is a direct threat to humanity, he should be put down. That doesn't mean I would see any joy in it.

Internet boards naturally lead one to use extreme examples, but I think my point is still valid. As a Christian myself, when I read the Gospels I read about a Jesus that had dinner with sinners and wept over the bodies of murdered Roman soldiers (the oppressors of his people). Fallwell blamed 9/11 on gays and "abortionists". I feel for his family, and know they are grieving and wish nothing but the best for them. I also hope he was truly saved. But I also know how many times he has said and done things that lead to harm and left me having to defend my faith and explain my disagreement to angry friends and family. Even Billy Graham (whom I admire much more) chastised Fallwell for some of his vitriol. Fallwell and those like him even worked to divide Christian against Christian, Baptist against Catholic, etc. I'm sorry, but people who don't believe what he believes must speak up and not be cowed. When those he directly attacks shoot back, it only feeds into his world view that he spins to his followers about the groups he wants to marginalize. The most powerful critics are those who pass his litmus test for acceptability, namely heterosexual Christians, because it exposes the lie that "this is what REAL Christians believe." Oh sure, not to him, but to others who are watching this debate play out. Before the moral majority, Christians in America were seen to have a diverse set of veiws all over the political spectrum. Fallwell and others began a campaign that basically imposed a certain set of doctrines for you to be considered a "real Christian". Dissident views within the community were largely shut down. You need to look no further than the Republican debates when Presidential candidates all glumly raise their hand to say they believe in Creationism not Evolution, and all of a sudden every candidate who isn't firmly on the record otherwise (and even a couple who were) is firmly "pro-life". He made right wing Christians a politically powerful force in this country, to their benefit, but to the detriment of Christians who had other views. That legacy lives on today, with James Dobson calling for the resignation of Christian leaders in Washington lobbying groups for expressing concern for the environment.

So if your point is we shouldn't wish death on anyone, I wholeheartedly agree. If you are saying we should all weep for a man who I believe hurt this country and Christianity, I'm sorry my eyes will have to stay dry.

You would have made a far better leader and example than him in my book, Saluki!

 

[laurence]

I'll go further to say that I probably should not have participated on this thread in the first place, it's only damaging to expel energy on something so negative. We forgive others not just to forgive them but to free our own souls/minds from a burden. Something I need to work on.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

I'll go further to say that I probably should not have participated on this thread in the first place, it's only damaging to expel energy on something so negative. We forgive others not just to forgive them but to free our own souls/minds from a burden. Something I need to work on.

laurence,

some people lay in wait under the delusion that they are the prideful lion stalking irreverent prey when they are but cowardly muggers hiding in dark for the unsuspecting. others whip out a witty line or two under the delusion that their response suggests significant thought, but they just gnats at sunset that get up your nose. you are neither of these. you are one who operates fully in the light of day. you are a kind and thoughtful man who offers much whether in the form of intellectual discourse, compassion, frustration or anger.

compassion comes in many forms. in buddhism there is the buddha of compassion who is all compassionate but also there is the wrathful buddha who is just as compassionate as the buddha of compassion. sometimes the appropriate response is anger. this is not the anger directed to hurt someone. this is not anger used to hit below the belt. this is the anger that comes from being hurt; not the anger used to hurt.

you do not have to deny your anger to cloak yourself in compassion. there is so much beauty to christian grace that i believe it will find its way through even your most unforgiving days. from what i have read of your works, i do not believe that you would ever purposely try to hurt someone without--as if it would ever be needed--quickly & self-directedly correcting yourself.

i for one hope that you will be able to continue to work on your faith while you also continue to be generous and genuine in sharing your deep felt thoughts, regardless of how they manifest.

 

[SamHouston]

this is not hypocracy talking. this is the sound of disgust. how convenient to try to dismiss an argument by mislabeling it. what the people here are expressing is not hypocritical at all. it is simply critique.

You're kidding yourself if you think that all of this is not classic hypocrisy. I'm not picking on you in particular, so don't take it that way. What I've seen in this thread is as disgusting as anything that I ever heard from the mouth of Falwell, a guy that I personally thought was wrong at least 90% of the time that he spoke. I'm not a fan of his at all but the attitude in this thread is simply wrong.

 

[SamHouston]

You right wing frauds make me laugh. If it was Bin Laden who died you'd be falling all over yourselves frothing at the mouth and hurling the same kind of invective.

Would Bin Laden deserve respect? Hell, no. And neither does Falwell.
The world is just better off without some people.

You hypocrites.

Personally, I'm neither right wing nor a fraud. Don't jump to the easy assumptions that way because they are usually wrong.

 

[SamHouston]

Ah, but Fox News has no problem condemning, and we have no problem jailing, Muslim Imams who "encurage muslim youth to wage jihad" on the western world. Yet Fallwell waged jihad on a large portion of Americans. The point is, many people feel his actions worked only to hurt people and this country, and are not sad to see him gone. Those of you quick to jump on this feeling as hypocricy, well, there is nothing to prevent people from only taking what they want from a conversation because it fits their world view. If you didn't see that Jerry was adding hate to the world before he died, you certianly won't see that now.

I think that you're missing a point here. I've said that I didn't agree with (or even like to hear) some of Falwell's rants. He was often filled with misguided hate, I agree. My whole point is that responding with the same kind of childish hate now that the man is dead is a very obviously hypocritical approach to take.

You apparently have no idea what I saw then or now, looks like.

 

[SamHouston]

I'll disagree with ya on that one. I think you're wrong.

I, for one, don't recall expressing anything at all when Saddam was executed. I may be wrong, but I don't think I posted anything in a thread about his execution.

 

[saluki9]

Laurence - You don't have to sell me. I agree 100% that during his life he did little to further the cause for people of faith. In addition I found his actions to be totally disjointed from a faith based on somebody who spent their time on earth caring for those who Falwell most reviled. That being said, I found the gloating over his death to be sickening.

 

[Martha]

Looking back, people were pretty quiet here after the Saddam execution. A thread announcing Ken Lay's death got quite a number of nasty comments.

I am getting complaints on this thread. Time to wind it up.

 

[SamHouston]

Winding it up is a good idea, I think, Martha.

 

[lrak]

I must admit that Im rather perplexed at the comments here. I presumed that if you were so outraged by the level of disrespect this man gave to some people you would be outraged by disrespect to any human being.

Being happy someone has died and calling it good news seems extrememly disrespectful.

I see one big difference. The posters are "disrespecting" Jerry Falwell for things he actually said and did. I do not see anyone encouraging hatred of all white Baptist ministers for things their best friend's cousin's boyfriend's mother heard Jerry Falwell say once. _THAT_ is the difference between the posters and Jerry Falwell.

I personally hope he has found his way to the pearly gates in peace (and then learned that God is a pro-choice black Jewish lesbian. )

 

[Martha]

OK, we are done.