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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 12:21 PM   #21
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Re: Mac or PC?

For what its worth, I think the whole virus deal is overblown by the virus companies and the average person who avoids opening emails with funny attachments or those from people they dont know, and who avoid "questionable" web sites probably wont ever see a virus.

That having been said, some pretty sneaky and intrusive pieces of code have materialized from time to time, appearing to be valid and reasonable 'click me' stuff.

So I think people with PC's are well advised to keep a well behaved virus scanner on board, and I also think that people with Mac's who dont have anything loaded and are pretty sure they're still quite safe have a very bad surprise coming to them, sooner or later.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 02:47 PM   #22
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by runchman
I think a big part of the 'mac being more secure' just has to do with the size of the target.

If you are a loser that can't get la*d and are sitting at home writing a virus, you're most likely going to go for the most bang for the buck, which is the windows universe.
- John
What is interesting about this supposition is that at the annual "Black Hat & DefCon Hackers Convention" in Las Vegas, which is a gathering of many of the writers of those viruses, or at least many of those so called security experts that find those exploits - the profile of those so called "losers", a great deal (close to half) of them use Macs as their computer of choice for developing and using at those conventions. From the various speculations about lack of market size for targets, etc. you would think that these individuals would pick the most robust platform to protect themselves, while looking for the most power to do their development work on. If that were true, then by observation, a large percentage of them have selected the Mac as that platform. Also, by that selection, it would seem logical, that they truely understand the inner workings and would feel very comfortable writing to attack something that they understand.
With the current quantity of exploits in the wild, the Mac remains "relatively" safe.
As to the attendence at the hackers conventions, that was my observation for the last 4 years, so it is not a new occurance. Finally, the purported stature amongst these so called "losers" seems to be obtained by writing a virus or exploiting a bug, before anyone else does, thereby gaining some noteriety at being first. With the "explanation" that there is not that many viruses due to low market share, being offered every year for at least since the early '90s, it would logically seem that a number of these "losers" would be trying to get their attack out first to obtain that notoriety. Results stand for themselves.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 03:12 PM   #23
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Re: Mac or PC?


We have a Mac Laptop, a Ubuntu system connected to the TV/Stereo, and a PC desktop. I've had lemons that were Macs and PCs -- don't judge a platform by your experience with one machine. The differences are overblown. I look forward to the day when Linux is mainstream and consumers can do away from the 'lock you in' business models of Apple and Microsoft. For many, including setab, Ubuntu may already be there.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 04:02 PM   #24
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitestick
you would think that these individuals would pick the most robust platform to protect themselves, while looking for the most power to do their development work on
Or they're picking the best platform to develop software on, and putting most of their network security in the hands of a good firewall/router. A lot of those guys have a separate box sitting between their router and the rest of their network running smoothwall or a custom built firewall based on one of the firewall distros.

I'm going to have to take a look at Ubuntu, its been a while since I fiddled with linux. Problem I keep having is that most of the 'spare' machines I have are older laptops and its a bitch to get all the drivers and piece parts to support the older laptop hardware.

Although if I could get it to run on my pentium-m toshiba, that'd give me an excuse to go buy a new laptop...

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitestick
it would logically seem that a number of these "losers" would be trying to get their attack out first to obtain that notoriety. Results stand for themselves.
Not necessarily. In the last five years there has been a very steady and solid drift from 'hacking to do damage' towards 'hacking to steal money'. At this point very little goes out that isnt quiet, stealthy, and robs your bank account. Right now you get the best bang for your buck doing that in the PC world. Plus those Mac slackers dont have any money

There actually was an IM worm on the mac a year or two ago, and there are currently four pretty open vulnerabilities that apple just seems to not want to close...and four "proof of concept" pieces of code already exist to exploit those.

Theres also a cost of entry...many "kiddie hackers" are using an old or homebrew PC and dont have or have access to a mac platform to develop or test a potential 'toy'. The inability to "roll your own mac" at home has also been an inhibitor in this space.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 04:56 PM   #25
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by runchman


If you are a loser that can't get la*d and are sitting at home writing a virus, you're most likely going to go for the most bang for the buck, which is the windows universe.


- John

We are still referring to MAC vs. PC, right? I just find "bang for the buck" to be an interesting phrase in this context.

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 06:00 PM   #26
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by setab

We are still referring to MAC vs. PC, right? I just find "bang for the buck" to be an interesting phrase in this context.

setab
Bang for a buck, isn't that from the place where you can 'live for a king for pennies'?
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 06:18 PM   #27
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Re: Mac or PC?

I have learned (on CNBC I think). That Apple has problems with MAC reliability. If you opt for MAC get an extended warranty.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 06:45 PM   #28
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by perinova
I have learned (on CNBC I think). That Apple has problems with MAC reliability. If you opt for MAC get an extended warranty.
That belies everything I have read and experienced. Got anything more specific? I'd like to learn more

I've never bought any extended warranty - just gave away a 7 year old Mac laptop which was working fine, just not powerful enough for modern applications.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 07:08 PM   #29
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Re: Mac or PC?

Does Apple still make their own machines? I thought they outsourced to Taiwan like everybody else.

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 07:17 PM   #30
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Re: Mac or PC?

I dont think they have any specific reliability issues, although I'm extremely unfond of passively cooled machines like the imacs. Had they done a little more for the disk drive cooling I'd have likely not had the problems I did. They had a few problems with some slot loading cd/dvd's and of course the battery problems everyone had.

The laptops are pretty well made, whoever makes them.

Their service and support are usually in the top 2. That having been said Dell beats them out on some surveys and Dell's support sucks.

There are some lousy PC machines too. Some vendors cheap out on the power supply, motherboard and/or the memory and then the customers blame all the glitches on the operating system.

That having been said, I saw nothing in the macs I've opened up to inspire me to pay a premium for them. The quality was perfectly good, but nothing really that great.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 07:24 PM   #31
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
The quality was perfectly good, but nothing really that great.
Yeah, but they think differently different, right?
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 07:40 PM   #32
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Re: Mac or PC?

Fishing ourselves from the religious stuff, the reality is that for a little web browsing and some word processing, the OP would likely notice almost no difference between the two.

In fact, a five year old version of either machine would do just nicely.

Price out a basic dell machine and a basic mac and see what you like about them. The inner workings are probably irrelevant.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 07:56 PM   #33
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Re: Mac or PC?

I knew this thread would evolve into religion after a few posts :P

Although I use linux on my main computer, I have a Mac G4 powerbook and several Dells (laptops and desktops) running Windows XP. I write software for all three operating systems: Mac/OSX, Linux and Windows.

After extensive years of working with all the different machines, my consistent recommendation is to go with a Windows PC. The Mac is a great piece of hardware, but the operating system is years behind Windows. Yes, at one time it was years ahead, but not anymore. The zealots who push Macs just haven't looked at how advanced Windows is nowadays. Everything the Mac has, Windows has and often better and easier to use.

I think your productivity will be much higher on the Windows PC than on the Mac. It is painful for me to watch Mac afficionadas try to do simple things because it takes them forever what with all the mouse clicks and all.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 08:00 PM   #34
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Fishing ourselves from the religious stuff, the reality is that for a little web browsing and some word processing, the OP would likely notice almost no difference between the two.
There will be a HUGE difference web browsing. Many web sites do not work with Safari and IE on a Mac or worked in a retarded way. But don't take my word for it, go try a Mac and see for yourself. Of course, Mac users don't know what they are missing because they have Macs!
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 08:15 PM   #35
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Re: Mac or PC?

The main reason for owning a computer is to run programs or software. Software today is complex and requires lots resources of capital to succeed.

So, a developer must always choose a platform for the developed software. Unix/Linux, Mac, or WinTel? Market share almost always dictates the final decision.

As far as viruses and malware are concerned, the same principle applies. The perpetrators, too, want to create the most damage to as many people as possible.

I owned a Mac too, the first Mac with floppy in the early 80s. I loved it, but can not find software to run. My IBM PC at that time looked completely out-of-date next to the Mac, but it was useful.

So, if you decide to buy a Mac, make sure all the software you need are available and up to your standard. One thing I keep hearing from Mac users is: "Oh, I also have a PC for other tasks". I am not aware of the reverse.

Last but not least is cost. Mac hardware, software, accessories, parts are more expensive.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 08:30 PM   #36
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Re: Mac or PC?

I grew up on PCs, programmed with PCs, taught with PCs, use PCs at work, so that's why my family has 5 Macs at home. You want to simplify your life in retirement and get as much done as possible when you want to work. Yes, Macs are more expensive, but they are virtually virus-proof and security updates can be downloaded and installed automatically for you. Most of them come with a boatload of installed software, including Appleworks, which saves documents in Word format for the Gates side of the world. It also prints to PDF, so anybody can read your document if they have Adobe (free) Reader. My wife and 3 kids all use Macs. The boys have wireless laptops for school. My daughter became a convert once I handed down my eMac when I upgraded to a G5 and her PC had clunked out.

You've seen all those cute little Mac commercials with the hip guy poking fun at the Gates clone - ALL TRUE. Mac makes Web life and communication so much easier. I have much more fun with the things I enjoy instead of worrying about how to be compatible with an entire group of people trying to figure out how to use, protect, and optimize their machine. Plug it into a cable or DSL modem and it practically configures itself! You only have to answer 3 questions about your Internet service name, your netwok login and password, and BAM - Connected!

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. There are enough Mac users here, that you can get an operating tip now and then if you need one.
Actually, just do the 10-minute tutorial that comes up the first time you run your machine and you're up to speed and on your way.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 08:39 PM   #37
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoe
I grew up on PCs, programmed with PCs, taught with PCs, use PCs at work, so that's why my family has 5 Macs at home. You want to simplify your life in retirement and get as much done as possible when you want to work. Yes, Macs are more expensive, but they are virtually virus-proof ...
Virtually virus-proof? I would like to know the technology enabling this feature.

No one or only few tries to do harm to Macs, simply because it's such a small minor community, not because it's virus-proof.

One more thing: There are programs you can buy for your Mac that emulate a Wintel environment, but I don't think one exists for the PC.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 09:36 PM   #38
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Re: Mac or PC?

There actually are a few emulators that can run PPC mac software on an x86 platform. Of course, plain old osx for the x86 platform would work on almost any intel platform that fit the specs, providing you get by the platform check at the beginning...which of course some folks have figured out.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-23-2007, 11:53 PM   #39
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Mac or PC?
Chevy? or Ford?
Taste great? or Less filling?

Good luck.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-24-2007, 06:29 AM   #40
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Re: Mac or PC?

ooo I knew this would eventually come around again if CFB came back.
(He probably knew I would come out of the woodwork as well! ).

This seems to be one of his HAIRBALLS:
Quote:
people with Mac's who dont have anything loaded and are pretty sure they're still quite safe have a very bad surprise coming to them, sooner or later.
Sigh. Yes, my computer MIGHT get struck by lightning. But so what? It's only a computer.

I might get a virus, but I have never had one and I won't get one tomorrow.
In the meantime, your PC will be reduced to a doorstop if you let your guard down and get off the computer-defense treadmill.
I have spent ZERO extra time and money on the issue, while you have spent lots...

Calculate every minute of your life that you have devoted to anti-viruses and firewalls and spyware and blue screens and so on and tally it up. What's your hourly rate? I will bet the farm that I could buy myself the top-of-the-line Mac Pro and their biggest cinema display with what you've 'invested' in wasted time in your PCs and still have money to burn.

I am thrilled beyond words to have had 20+ years of working with Macs. They have all performed excellently; the older ones would go out to pasture as print servers and are still going strong. One or two bum hard drives after years + years of hard daily use of multiple macs.. so what?

Macs just work*. I don't care if it's a "run" that might end. I'm Enjoying the Here and Now!!!

If you don't need a specialized program for work and you're not addicted to some particular game, you will avoid infinite headaches by just getting a Mac and a printer and plugging them in. 'Wa la'! as they say..

*Of course on a piece-by-piece basis there could be lemon machines, but I'm talking about the underlying concept and design that makes them people-centric and not making people run around like chickens with their heads cut off with not-ready-for-primetime software and hideous device-compatibility nightmares.

It's possible the all-in-one form factors have more issues. I prefer the idea of the separate box plus monitor. My almost-2-y.o. Mini is awesome, and so tiny! It's sitting next to my old G4 which is probably 20x the volume and 5x as loud.. and just yesterday I was working in Photoshop CS2, Quark 6.5, InDesign, Acrobat 7 Pro, and MSWord 2004 and Mail and Safari all chugging happily along simultaneously. In 6.5" x 6.5" x 2".

Maybe what bugs CFB is the emotional component.. that people are usually happy with their Macs. I don't see a lot of people happy with their PCs.. they use them and tolerate them. There is that emotional component for me, but it's not based on making the hippest, coolest purchase, it's based on actual experience. And as more people start trying Macs, the news will finally start to spread after 20 years of disdain and marginalization. Just look at the number of Mac-recommenders on this thread, compared with a thread I remember a while back here on this same forum-maybe a year or so ago?- where the majority was counseling PCs.. because that's all they knew and were familiar with. "The devil you know..", etc.

For those worrying about Safari.. In my experience I can only remember about two instances of flaky sites (and I do a LOT of surfing).. they're usually sites that are wedded to Microsoft's X-something or other for video or interactive content. F** 'em. One of them was NBC. I can live without NBC. That was over a year ago, and I've had zero surfing problems since then.



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