More on the Tesla electric car

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We rode in a Tesla today. :)

Would you believe it - the taxi from CDG airport to downtown Paris! Took DH a few minutes to figure out the significance of the huge center dashboard display and he asks me: "Is there a T on the steering wheel?". Yes - a rather stylized one.

"C'est une Tesla?" (cab driver didn't speak English) - "Oui." "Ooh la la!!!"

Incredibly quiet, smooth ride. Very powerful/responsive car too. We were impressed and incredibly surprised to find ourselves in a Tesla cab in Paris.

With all the nuclear power plants in France, power must be inexpensive for cabbies to drive Teslas, or the cabbies are charging a lot! :D
 
The other issue to consider when discussing the environmental footprint of EV cars is the end of life batteries. Personally, at least given the current form of electric generation, and the battery disposal issues, it is far from clear that EV vehicles (in their totality) are significantly more eco-friendly. Diesel is a very strong competitor from a design/efficiency stand point. Sadly, Americans don't like diesel. We have a BMW X5 diesel which has been wonderful.
 
.............. Diesel is a very strong competitor from a design/efficiency stand point. Sadly, Americans don't like diesel. We have a BMW X5 diesel which has been wonderful.

Nice choice (BMW X5). I love my diesel Passat for its efficiency, quietness and torque.
 
Nice choice (BMW X5). I love my diesel Passat for its efficiency, quietness and torque.

You really feel the torque (425 ft/lbs) when you put your foot in it. It is a wonderful engine. We are averaging about 24 mpg for a 5,000 lbs. plus vehicle. Our previous gas X5 model (6 cyl.) got only 18 mpg.
 
I doubt it. Here's the rub - all these 'marginal production cost' figures I see are from the fans, and they ignore reality. As renewables become a bigger and bigger component, we will need storage and/or peaker plants to cover the intermittents. Add in the cost of storage and its losses, and/or peaker plants, and see how that number looks.

Just this for now.

The rub is a bit more insidious: the question is who will pay for the extra infrastructure, aside from the question how much of it is actually needed.

If infrastructure and production is decoupled (it is in Europe, don't know about the US), I as a production company don't care what extra infrastructure is needed.

As long as my marginal production cost is lower than the other guy, my power gets sold. The other guy will idle his plant. "Merit order" determines who gets to deliver power, and every kwh produced by solar specifically has a marginal cost of near-0. There is no way to compete with that with non-renewables, unless you start taxing a specific technology because of its intermittency (or subsidize others).

In other words, once the solar plant is built it will never go away and always displace others. Building it makes sense if the estimated production cost is below the current cost - which it already is in some countries and soon will be in the US too.

Add to that the fundamental dynamic of the technology: you get the fuel for free, and production (in tandem with EROIE) will keep getting better and cheaper. Once you go below the cost of coal (and it will) building will continue until there is an overbuild. Power during daytime summer will be 100% solar (again, unless you tax or subsidize).

In addition, consider the long lifetime of power plants and being in charge of deciding to build a new one. Unless I can get government garantuees (like nuclear powerplants get) I'd be hard pressed right now to build anything non-renewable. The risk and uncertainty is simply too high. Good luck getting a garantuee with a pollution stigma.

So in my mind production is a done deal. Infrastructure may get alot more expensive (I don't know), but we will just have to deal with it.

I did read up on solar concentrators the other day (a recent MIT study I posted a while ago), the dynamics looked really interesting. It can function as a battery of sorts and get rid of the intermittency issue. Cost dynamics seemed ok too.
 
You really feel the torque (425 ft/lbs) when you put your foot in it. It is a wonderful engine. We are averaging about 24 mpg for a 5,000 lbs. plus vehicle. Our previous gas X5 model (6 cyl.) got only 18 mpg.

Yes, that X5 has unbelievable torque, much more than the VW products that primarily run 2.0 liter diesels.
 
But isn't the problem with diesel, even so-called clean diesels, particulate emissions?

I remember one NPR report about these particulates being like aerosolized vapors so they get absorbed directly to the bloodstream through the lungs.

Other concern is higher incidence of asthma in children living near a lot of diesel activity, such as Long Beach port, though in that case, it may be old trucks.
 
The new diesels are super clean. I seem to recall they are cleaner than current gas models. The BMW has a fairly elaborate emissions system (heaven the cost if it fails... thankfully EPA "stuff" is good for 100,000 miles if memory serves).
 
What about maintenance? Refilling the urea and possibly having to deal with blocked particulate filters?
 
What about maintenance? Refilling the urea and possibly having to deal with blocked particulate filters?

I add urea once every 10,000 miles. Filler cap is in the trunk. cost per fill about $8.00. My diesel has a particulate filter regen system. No issues ever.

And yes, the exhaust is cleaner than that of gasoline cars.

But wait! New air regs for gas engines will add particulate control for them in the near future.
 
Just this for now.

The rub is a bit more insidious: the question is who will pay for the extra infrastructure, aside from the question how much of it is actually needed.

If infrastructure and production is decoupled (it is in Europe, don't know about the US), I as a production company don't care what extra infrastructure is needed.

As long as my marginal production cost is lower than the other guy, my power gets sold. The other guy will idle his plant. "Merit order" determines who gets to deliver power, and every kwh produced by solar specifically has a marginal cost of near-0. There is no way to compete with that with non-renewables, unless you start taxing a specific technology because of its intermittency (or subsidize others).

Interesting thoughts, but I think you are taking a micro view of a macro issue.

Sure, one segment doesn't care about intermittency, but overall somebody cares - the customer who does not want brown/black-outs. And the politicians overseeing the (usually) monopoly utilities, who don't want voters mad at them with brown/black-outs. So brown/black outs will be avoided in the system. And intermittency must be addressed.


The renewable plants can't give away their power just because they don't pay for fuel - they need to recoup costs. Yes, their marginal cost is near zero, but they need to pay their loans and/or investors, property taxes, etc.

The energy buyers will buy the cheapest spot source. But when wind/solar get to be big players, what do they do with their excess? No one wants it, and that means they can't get the return on their investment they got when they were small players. Size works against intermittent sources. So wind/solar either need to store it to sell later (that costs money and lost eff%), or try to raise rates for their power when there is demand. That makes it a bit harder to compete with the fuel plants.

And if the energy buyers wouldn't buy from the fuel plants when wind/solar was available, the fuel plants are in the same position - they will need to raise rates to recoup that loss when wind/solar isn't available. There's no free lunch, everyone wants to get paid, and the customer wants a reliable supply of power.

And you don't just 'idle' a coal plant. They throttle up/down slowly, and operate in a limited range. So if coal has been ramped up for the morning rush, and then solar pops up quicker than the coal plant can throttle down, that coal plant's energy can also be sold at near zero cost. So now there isn't much demand for solar power, right when they start producing it. You just can't separate these inter-related issues.

The intermittency will end up costing the energy buyers (and consumers). Picture if you had two sources for a critical supply to your business. One pops in once in a while and offers a great deal, but you can't rely on them for critical customer shipments. So then you turn to your original supplier to fill the critical needs. Pretty soon, the original supplier is going to raise their rates - they can't fulfill your occasional, emergency needs at the old price without the steady business you gave them earlier. So the new supplier deal really isn't the same bargain as it appeared, is it? It is costing you in other ways.

I do think that is the reality we face. Now, if renewable plus storage is cheaper than fuel, then you've got an economic winner. But we are talking hours, days, maybe even weeks of storage - that's not around the corner, and it won't be cheap and it may not be safe ( IIRC, a few hours storage of a typical coal plant (and we have ~ 20 in IL) is more energy than the Nukes dropped on Japan).

-ERD50
 
With all the nuclear power plants in France, power must be inexpensive for cabbies to drive Teslas, or the cabbies are charging a lot! :D

Who knows? The rates were no different than a standard taxi.

I imagine there is some major supplement program for "green" taxi. We saw a ton of Prius taxis.

Have to say - the air quality with all the traffic was very good.
 
( IIRC, a few hours storage of a typical coal plant (and we have ~ 20 in IL) is more energy than the Nukes dropped on Japan).
Back of the envelope: The two atomic weapons had a total yield of about 20 kt of TNT = 23244444463 watt-hours = 23000 MW-hours

I think a typical new coal plant has a max capacity of about 2000 MW, so the two weapons would equal about 10 hours at max capacity.

Pretty amazing. Or I've misplaced a decimal!
 
I don't see it. We can green the grid faster w/o added demand from EVs. How do EVs speed anything?

The Tesla full model has a battery pack of 85 Kwh. An average household in the US uses somewhere between 20 kwh and 40 kwh per day (24h).

So, one Tesla can function as battery for the nighttime with still plenty of juice left to drive moderate distances. In addition, old car batteries can be refurbished as well once they become unusable as car battery.

More EVs also mean lower production costs for said batteries as scale effects take hold (as per the Gigafactory Tesla is building).

All the above reduces intermittency, so helps offsetting some disadvantages of solar and allows some of the production to functionally shift towards the night time. It might also reduce infrastructure costs a bit (for those houses who have a plugin at their home).

I know this is all minor right now, but you were asking how they help each other.
 
Sure, one segment doesn't care about intermittency, but overall somebody cares - the customer who does not want brown/black-outs.

The infrastructure will be upgraded and intermittency will be addressed, not disputing that. I'm just saying that since the producing company doesn't pay for it, it won't factor in their investment decisions. Same thing for the consumer putting up panels for their own private use.

That is, unless said producers get taxed or non-intermittents get subsidies. So far that hasn't happened as far as I know. Germany does have a subsidy for peaker plants (gas) I believe, that won't slow down solar as a producer though. It is a "tragedy of the commons" type thing.

The renewable plants can't give away their power just because they don't pay for fuel - they need to recoup costs. Yes, their marginal cost is near zero, but they need to pay their loans and/or investors, property taxes, etc.

They have to pay for all that, but at the very moment the power is produced it will sell at whatever the market price is, down to zero. There is no bargain power in the market. Prices mostly get determined by merit order, and that is the lowest cost marginal producer at any given moment (the spot price, if you will).

As long as a solar producer gets even 1 cent per kwh for producing it will sell that power. It is the better option vs. not selling it, getting nothing and wasting it (assuming no storage here) or even worse incurring the cost of shorting it safely into the ground.

This is very different from a gas plant, oil plant or a coal plant (more below). If the cost of the inputs goes above the price they can get in the market at that time, they won't deliver power. A solar plant has no input costs.

Now, yes, if the price a solar plant gets drops below their fixed costs on a structural basis the solar company will go bankrupt and get restructured. What I expect to happen then is that shareholders get wiped out and bondholders as well. And then you have a solar producer without debt, with an even lower cost level. The capacity will not go away. It's built and will produce once it's there. Very different dynamic for non-renewables.

And you don't just 'idle' a coal plant. They throttle up/down slowly, and operate in a limited range. So if coal has been ramped up for the morning rush, and then solar pops up quicker than the coal plant can throttle down, that coal plant's energy can also be sold at near zero cost. So now there isn't much demand for solar power, right when they start producing it. You just can't separate these inter-related issues.

I am not separating them. A coal plant will look at the solar forecasts and plan accordingly, because they will suffer if they get it wrong. A solar plant doesn't need forecasting, it just produces whatever it does.

So yes, situations will start to occur where power will actually sell below the cost of actually burning the coal. In fact, the price will probably drop towards zero as long as enough solar is available. That's killing for coal.

I don't have the numbers ready, yet I wouldn't be surprised that even short periods of selling below marginal cost will ultimately mean that coal plants will lose viability during the daytime once solar has decent marketshare. (I think input costs for coal are around $4 per MWh.) So coal will be displaced by gas, wind and solar. Again without energy storage (the big unknown here).

The intermittency will end up costing the energy buyers (and consumers).

I wouldn't be surprised if it will although I'm not sure. I don't believe though that it will stop the actors involved from moving forward anyway.

That is because each actor individually has an incentive to move forward, except for the transport infrastructure which will be forced by citizens and goverment actions. Good way to lose an election is having frequent power outages.

The utility producer will build solar if his cost of producing is below the highest current (non-renewable) producer. Households will build panels if their costs are below grid parity (so including transport costs). Non-renewables will postpone their investment decisions. Battery system manufacturers may enter the fray if they can get their system costs low enough, possibly (as one example) via refurbished EV batteries.

The infrastructure company can only follow, and will build to prevent brown-outs and instability, paid for by governments. It has no power (as of yet) to stop the trend.

There is no actor guarding the entire system. Only governments can fullfull that function, and I haven't seen much willingness to penalize renewable infrastructure yet.
 
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The Tesla full model has a battery pack of 85 Kwh. An average household in the US uses somewhere between 20 kwh and 40 kwh per day (24h).

So, one Tesla can function as battery for the nighttime with still plenty of juice left to drive moderate distances. ...

I know this is all minor right now, but you were asking how they help each other.
No, more wishful thinking from fans w/o analysis. I may have addressed this before, but...

#1 - A battery designed to meet the requirements of mobile power is an expensive battery. Using it for stationary power doesn't make sense - there are cheaper alternatives (even Tesla's PowerWall is a different chemistry/configuration).

#2 - Range anxiety is real. A consumer never really knows when they may need to make that extra trip. It sure doesn't help range anxiety to run down the battery to feed the grid. So for apples-to-apples, the consumer would need to buy additional battery capacity to keep range anxiety at the same level, and then drag that battery around in their car wherever they go. Makes no sense! Again, stationary batteries would fill that need better - you are again fitting a square peg in a round hole, in a desperate attempt to rationalize these polluting EVs! Using semi-depleted, used EV batteries in a stationary mode might be economical - we will see.

#3 - Look at the warranty for a Tesla car battery. They prohibit you from using it this way. Their warranty is based on driving, if you cycle ~ 1/4~1/3 of that battery power daily, you can be assured they would need to adjust the warranty - that's a LOT of extra demand on that battery. Look at their PowerWalls, one is designed for occasional backup, the other for daily cycling. Different chemistry for different needs.

#4 - The Tesla is an $$$ car. To really make a difference, we need to look at where we would be if EVs made up some significant % of miles driven. Those will need to be cheaper cars for mass acceptance (and as I've said before - how dp you get mass acceptance of EVs to people w/o garages, or inadequate power in their garage?). Cheaper cars won;t have an excess of battery power, and won;t have batteries that can take excess cycling. Tesla can afford to cover few outliers, due to their high cost. Large scale mfgs will be looking at this with a very sharp pencil.

I'll give a more concise reply to your next post regarding intermittency. You are still using hand-wave magic here. Intermittency costs, and someone will need to pay, no free lunch. You are wrong to say no one is 'guarding' the system, utilities are regulated. In Chicago, a few years back the utility had slipped on maintenance, and brown/black-outs were increasing. Even in ineffectively run Chicago. this problem got fixed in pretty short order. Public and political pressure really pushed a lot of upgrades to the infrastructure in a short time.


I already demonstrated that while the producer may not 'care' - the energy buyers will, and will pay accordingly - and that will make the producers 'care' very quickly! Just imagine three days with little sun and wind, and now the energy buyers have to turn to the coal and gas plants for power - the fuel plants have the buyers over a barrel, and will collect enough to cover their 'slumps' with a very high rate charge. The buyers will have no choice. No free lunch.

Bankruptcy? That's a way to lower production costs? No comment...

-ERD50
 
No, more wishful thinking from fans w/o analysis. I may have addressed this before, but...



-ERD50

ERD50, you seem very knowledgeable on these issues. What is your background? Were you/are you involved in power generation industry in a past/present life?

I ask because understanding your background helps to add perspective to your comments.
 
Who knows? The rates were no different than a standard taxi.

I imagine there is some major supplement program for "green" taxi. We saw a ton of Prius taxis.

Have to say - the air quality with all the traffic was very good.

I wouldn't think any supplement for a Prius taxi would be needed.

A hybrid captures wasted energy with regenerative breaking, gets by with a smaller engine, so provides better fuel efficiency than a non-hybrid. The payback for a taxi company is probably pretty quick (not so for me, we don't drive many miles).

The good air quality might be due to the French using nukes for ~ 80% of their electricity?

-ERD50
 
ERD50, you seem very knowledgeable on these issues. What is your background? Were you/are you involved in power generation industry in a past/present life?

I ask because understanding your background helps to add perspective to your comments.

Thanks. I'm a retired electrical engineer, but I never worked in the power generation industry. I did work with battery-powered mobile electronics, so have some experience with that end (but would not claim to be an expert in that area).

Anyone can do the analysis I have presented, no special skills required. It just takes a few things:

A) Basic math skills, and a basic understanding of energy terms (easy to learn or brush up on at Wikipedia, and all sorts of energy converter calculators on the web).

B) Read and keep current on the technology - the key factor here is... don't just accept the headline or the 'happy talk' from the author, peel the onion back a layer or two to get down to the underlying facts and limits (seldom included in the article). Keep an open mind - if all you are looking for is validation of preconceived ideas, you can always find someone to support your view. But does it hold water?

edit/add to expound on this - I think it is important to be even more skeptical of your own ideas than you are of others. Note how in these recent posts, where I presented the controversial idea that EVs run mainly on the dirty part of the grid, and renewable % mean very little, I present it as a question. Can this be true? Did I miss something? Can you poke holes in it?

I'm not making a proclamation, I'm making a proposal. And so far, I think it is holding water. The logic of it seems sound, I can't convince myself that I'm wrong, and that is how I approach ideas - am I wrong?​

I wish I knew more about the power industry. I'd like to better understand some of these factors on coal plants, their power range, ramp up/down rates, etc. Most of the info I find is either way too generic to be useful, or uses so much 'insider' talk, that I can't make it out either. But I do know in general terms that coal and nukes can't change very fast, that is why they rely on NG turbine peakers to fill in. Those peakers cost much more to run than coal/nukes, but they need to spend the extra $ to avoid brown/black-outs.

Hmmm, it seems that in Totoro's world, the buyers would not buy power from peakers - it is too expensive? But they do - to avoid the brown/black-outs. Puts a crater sized hole in his theory, that simply is not the way it works, today or in the future.

-ERD50
 
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No, more wishful thinking from fans w/o analysis. I may have addressed this before, but...

I'm no fan, and not sure I enjoy the tone there.

#1 - A battery designed to meet the requirements of mobile power is an expensive battery. Using it for stationary power doesn't make sense - there are cheaper alternatives (even Tesla's PowerWall is a different chemistry/configuration).

I was primarily talking about what you will do with the Tesla battery once it is no longer fit for that purpose, and yes, even while it is in the car. The original buyer (of the car) already paid for it in the current setting.

No dedicated use implied, just saying (like you asked) that both might help each other if they both scale up.

you are again fitting a square peg in a round hole, in a desperate attempt to rationalize these polluting EVs!

Or the tone here. I was talking about ex-EV batteries and potential use for current EV batteries for some people in addition to EV right now. 10 KWh on a 85 KWh isn't much (12%), and not everyone has a long commute.

I know it reduces wear on current batteries as its use is unintended, so Tesla can't garantuee the mileage. It depends on what effect it will have and how much costs will differ between night and day. There is no telling what direction the future will take.


#4 - The Tesla is an $$$ car. To really make a difference, we need to look at where we would be if EVs made up some significant % of miles driven.

Yes. The battery cost is $30k or so right now. That needs to come down, and it will. It's Tesla's target and ambition. In terms of where we are right I already said it was marginal right now, so I don't get the point you are trying to make. You merely asked me how EV batteries and intermittency help each other. It won't have an impact at all right now, I said as much.

I'll give a more concise reply to your next post regarding intermittency. You are still using hand-wave magic here. Intermittency costs, and someone will need to pay, no free lunch.

No hand waving, read my comment. Yes, someone will pay. Typically taxpayers via the transportation infrastructure, funded by governments. I'm repeating myself here it seems.

But not the producers. That's the tragedy I was talking about. Transportation costs go up for everyone through actions taken by producers. Again, unless renewables get taxed or non-renewables get subsidized, which I don't see happening soon.

I already demonstrated that while the producer may not 'care' - the energy buyers will, and will pay accordingly - and that will make the producers 'care' very quickly! Just imagine three days with little sun and wind, and now the energy buyers have to turn to the coal and gas plants for power - the fuel plants have the buyers over a barrel, and will collect enough to cover their 'slumps' with a very high rate charge. The buyers will have no choice. No free lunch.

I agree, they won't have a choice. Yet it won't stop solar producers unless government actors make them. I'm getting confused now.


Bankruptcy? That's a way to lower production costs? No comment...

Yes. Not saying it is a business strategy to lower costs. I'm just saying that any installed solar capacity will never be removed from the marketplace. And that if any solar production site will go into bankruptcy, it will only serve to make life tougher on non-renewables. I've seen it in plenty of other industries. And I'm telling you this dynamic makes planning new production a very uncertain affair.

I'm not sure I am conveying correctly what I want to share here.

In no way am I saying that solar or renewable is cost competitive right now, nor that EVs are "the green choice" in the short term. Where did I write that?

What I am saying is that given the current cost trend solar and wind will displace non-renewables pretty quickly. And even if it drives up infrastructure costs dramatically and increases overall costs that won't stop the trend. Non-renewables are pretty much dead in the water in the medium term, and the whole industry knows it.
 
Hmmm, it seems that in Totoro's world, the buyers would not buy power from peakers - it is too expensive? But they do - to avoid the brown/black-outs. Puts a crater sized hole in his theory, that simply is not the way it works, today or in the future.

Kind request to read what I write, not what you think I wrote.

Buyers will buy power from (non-renewable) peakers only if there is no solar power available to them (and to a smaller extent, wind and hydro), and only then. That isn't theory, it is what happens today.

If there is solar power available, that will be used up first as it has the cheapest marginal production cost ("merit order") of effectively zero. As a consequence its price will be slightly below the marginal production cost of the next available energy source (up to demand saturation). Peaker plants only get used when there is no solar available because peakers will always be more expensive in the spot market. They are because they have variable immediate costs.

With non-peakers it is indeed slightly different. If there is a coal plant burning and it suddenly faces competition with solar power both effectively have no choice but to produce, and consequently that price competition will push the sales price effectively to zero. The cost impact however is dramatically different, coal burns up valuable inputs (coal) while solar doesn't. This has a far more negative impact on coal plants than solar plants.
 
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Totoro...


Not sure where you live, but the gvmt is not building out the electrical grid infrastructure where I live.... it is paid by the consumers....

I will have to look this up, but I remember that T Boone Pickens was wanting to ramp up wind farms in Texas.... but that the cost to get that energy to people who could use it was in the billions... he wanted others to pay this cost.... but the grid operators refused (last I heard).... they did not see a good reason to invest....


Also a thought on your marginal costs.... sure, if you are talking spot prices then solar and wind will have an advantage.... but if you are a utility that is getting electricity from many producers, you will make sure that you have a steady supply... and those providers will make sure that the utility pays for the privilege of them being able to provide electricity on a steady basis... the only thing that wind and solar will replace is peaker demand... even if it were able to supply 100% of demand at any time, all that electricity could go 'poof' if the wind stopped blowing or thick cloud cover blew in quickly.... then what do you do:confused:


As an aside.... I remember being in Hawaii and going to the farthest southern point in the US... they had a wind farm there.... and NONE were working.... the wind was blowing nicely, but nothing... I still do not know why they were not producing since (as you point out) the cost of input is zero....
 
I live in Europe.

Out here the network infrastructure is completely separate from the producing side, as the infrastructure is a well-regulated natural monopoly. It used to be different.

In the last mile from network to producer (e.g. offshore wind farms) it is a bit fuzzier, and a classic tug of war in "who gets to pay". Cross-border sometimes is even more fun (Germany building a new connection to the Netherlands, who pays? -- or gaslines from Russia to Turkey).

The infrastructure maintainers are also starting to pay peakers (gas mostly) in Germany a garantueed income, not sure about other countries. This is to make sure as you said that capacity will actually be there when needed. Practically speaking the only way to keep things going.

The strange dynamic is then that it increases infrastructure costs and effectively subsidizes non-renewables. So what you describe is also happening here. They have to do that because otherwise the peakers simply won't be there. The business case and risks don't work anymore.

With regards to wind farms it is puzzling sometimes, and I can only guess. Sometimes wind speed is not correct, and they are shut off. Wind also does have slight cost in terms of wear and tear, so maybe too much sun?
 
I live in Europe.

Out here the network infrastructure is completely separate from the producing side, as the infrastructure is a well-regulated natural monopoly. It used to be different.

In the last mile from network to producer (e.g. offshore wind farms) it is a bit fuzzier, and a classic tug of war in "who gets to pay". Cross-border sometimes is even more fun (Germany building a new connection to the Netherlands, who pays? -- or gaslines from Russia to Turkey).

The infrastructure maintainers are also starting to pay peakers (gas mostly) in Germany a garantueed income, not sure about other countries. This is to make sure as you said that capacity will actually be there when needed. Practically speaking the only way to keep things going.

The strange dynamic is then that it increases infrastructure costs and effectively subsidizes non-renewables. So what you describe is also happening here. They have to do that because otherwise the peakers simply won't be there. The business case and risks don't work anymore.

With regards to wind farms it is puzzling sometimes, and I can only guess. Sometimes wind speed is not correct, and they are shut off. Wind also does have slight cost in terms of wear and tear, so maybe too much sun?


Here the transmission company and producers are separate... but both are private entities....

And yes, the people who provide the power will make sure they get a profit... as other have also mentioned... I use to have a friend who worked for a utility before it was split... he worked at a plant that rarely actually produced electricity.... the were in an industrial part of town and always had steam going, but sold that to local plants... he once told me they spent $20 mill to refurb a turbine that was not used... it was there so they could negotiate prices from other producers.... kinda hard to charge an astronomical rate when there is an idle plant that is just waiting to be turned on.....
 
20/20 had a report on the Tesla / prius battery technology. Don't quote me on this but the premise of the story was that these electrics actually consume more in terms of energy than a regular gasoline powered vehicle. It has to do with the amount of "Rare Earth" the batteries require for production. China has the lions share of our planet's Rare Earths so they are the ones winning with these electric cars. The earth is the loser.
 
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