More on the Tesla electric car

[ziggy29]

According to Consumer Reports the Tesla model S is the best car they have ever tested. Not the best electric car, but the best car of all. They do add that given the need to recharge it every 200 miles or so it is probably not the best car for cross country trip. Still, since it was designed from the ground up as an electric car, the designers were able to take advantage of that fact to make it right.

Still, once every 200 miles is 3-5 times better than most other strictly plug-in electrics, so there's hope the technology can get cheaper with economy of scale and mature production. Of course, cruising range is only one of three major concerns with purely electric cars, the others being the time required to recharge and the ability of charging facilities on the road. (Battery life, cost and disposal are also concerns, but not everyday driving types of concern.) We'll know the technology has arrived for the masses when you can feasibly do a cross-country "road trip" in one that doesn't cost as much as a house. I think that will happen in my lifetime, but not really soon.

If the wealthy who can afford to subsidize early adoption want to drive down the costs of producing better EVs for the rest of us, so be it. They've certainly done it elsewhere, with computers, flat-panel TVs and cell phones among many other places.

 

[Chuckanut]

Certainly the model S is still a rich person's toy. But, it does offer hope for a future where electric cars will a viable option. Will Tesla survive? I am normally a skeptic, thinking that the big boys will copy what works well and run the little guy out of business. But this little guy is also the only private person who can deliver supplies to the ISS and bring things back safely. Time will tell.

 

[clifp]

Certainly the model S is still a rich person's toy. But, it does offer hope for a future where electric cars will a viable option. Will Tesla survive? I am normally a skeptic, thinking that the big boys will copy what works well and run the little guy out of business. But this little guy is also the only private person who can deliver supplies to the ISS and bring things back safely. Time will tell.

I also will add that I was very impressed with his Elon's third company SolarCity. They gave me a very competitive quote for a PV system, without the need to ever send a salesman out to talk. Google Earth, Goto Meeting, and some proprietary software.

 

[Shanky]

I also will add that I was very impressed with his Elon's third company SolarCity. They gave me a very competitive quote for a PV system, without the need to ever send a salesman out to talk. Google Earth, Goto Meeting, and some proprietary software.

If you count Paypal, Solar City would be his 4th "success". But he has continued to demonstrate he is willing to risk whatever he has, you really could not say he has achieved FIRE.

 

[clifp]

If you count Paypal, Solar City would be his 4th "success". But he has continued to demonstrate he is willing to risk whatever he has, you really could not say he has achieved FIRE.

He had a company before that Zip2 which he and his brother sold to Compaq for $314 million, plus computer software programs that he made as a teenager. So I'd give him credit for 5 or 6 successful companies.

But you are right, the concept of an SWR isn't part of his DNA, and early retirement well I just don't see him doing it ever.

 

[Chuckanut]

But you are right, the concept of an SWR isn't part of his DNA, and early retirement well I just don't see him doing it ever.

I doubt that Mr. Musk could retire early to a life of leisure, any more than many people here could give up their retirement and go back to working for MegaCorp.

The guy is a risk taker, but he takes very well calculated risks. If you look at Tesla and SpaceX you will see the hand of the government helping him out. This does not diminish his accomplishments, rather it shows that he puts his efforts where he can marshal the best resources, be they an excellent staff of sharp people, or some government funding to help with the financial end.

 

[Chuckanut]

Tesla has paid off their government loan 9 years early.

 

[Gumby]

I followed a Tesla Model S for several miles on the Henry Hudson Parkway in NYC on Tuesday. It was a very sharp looking car. Except for the exorbitant price, I would buy one.

 

[clifp]

Back in Jan, initial Tesla told me that car would be out of the factory late May to Mid June. A couple of months ago they said the car would done May 29. On May 21, they called me to say the car was done. Fortunately my Penfed car loan check arrived the next day. I put it in the mail along with much smaller check yesterday. Car should be on the next container ship to Hawaii end of next week.

Under promise and over deliver is a good way to run a company.

 

[Chuckanut]

Back in Jan, initial Tesla told me that car would be out of the factory late May to Mid June. A couple of months ago they said the car would done May 29. On May 21, they called me to say the car was done. Fortunately my Penfed car loan check arrived the next day. I put it in the mail along with much smaller check yesterday. Car should be on the next container ship to Hawaii end of next week.

Under promise and over deliver is a good way to run a company.

Please give us your review of the car after you have driven it for a few weeks. While they are still not a car for the masses, I think the Tesla gives us an idea of how good they can be. IIRC, Tesla says the next step is to make a car nearer to $40,000.

 

[Zathras]

Congratulations Cliff!

Chuckanut, what would you like to know? We have one with over 11k miles on it and just took delivery of our second to replace our gas guzzling Volt

I'd be happy to share any experiences with them, but I could go on forever

 

[FinanceDude]

Tesla is run by smart people who seem to understand the challenges, so kudos to them. However, Toyota and Honda are not going to go away from the challenge. This is what I see for the near future:

1)The continuing evolution of clean diesel engines through technology
2)A lot of vehicles getting retrofitted to natural gas for fuel.
3)Hybrids like the Prius and others becoming more efficient with improved battery technology.
4)Fuel cell technology being pushed, particularly by Honda.
5)The improvement in range of EV like the Tesla and others. If they can get a 400-500 mile range consistently, the only thing holding the general public back would be price.

Keep in mind EV vehicles still need to be charged, while hybrids and fuel cell do not.

 

[Zathras]

Absolutely. The biggest risk to Tesla now, IMO, is competition.
No one is offering it yet, but the 'big guys' have the R&D budget and production capability to put some serious hurt on Tesla.

As for 400-500 mile range. I don't think you will ever see it. Not because it isn't possible, but because so few people require that kind of range that such a market is just too tiny. I would rather have a 200-250 mile range car that costs 2/3rds the cost of the 400-500 mile range car.

As for EVs needing to be charged, that is exactly why I will never again buy an internal combustion vehicle. It is so vastly more convenient to charge rather than stop in the middle of going somewhere and pumping noxious fluids into my vehicle.

 

[Texas Proud]

Absolutely. The biggest risk to Tesla now, IMO, is competition.
No one is offering it yet, but the 'big guys' have the R&D budget and production capability to put some serious hurt on Tesla.

As for 400-500 mile range. I don't think you will ever see it. Not because it isn't possible, but because so few people require that kind of range that such a market is just too tiny. I would rather have a 200-250 mile range car that costs 2/3rds the cost of the 400-500 mile range car.

As for EVs needing to be charged, that is exactly why I will never again buy an internal combustion vehicle. It is so vastly more convenient to charge rather than stop in the middle of going somewhere and pumping noxious fluids into my vehicle.

Well, I don't think you can take a road trip from Texas to California without pumping that noxious fluid... which is what we are planning to do this summer...

Heck, I can't even get my boat to the lake without it either... much less driving the boat...

 

[REWahoo]

As for 400-500 mile range. I don't think you will ever see it. Not because it isn't possible, but because so few people require that kind of range that such a market is just too tiny.

You obviously don't live 'out west'.

 

[Chuckanut]

Tesla is run by smart people who seem to understand the challenges, so kudos to them. However, Toyota and Honda are not going to go away from the challenge. <snip>

IIRC, some of the money Tesla used to pay off the Feds came from consulting fees they got from Toyota.

 

[Zathras]

Oh, don't get me wrong, there are certainly tasks for which an electric vehicle (EV) simply won't work, or is less convenient.

I would never suggest someone that needs to tow a boat consider an EV for that task.
Luckily, I don't tow a boat anywhere, and I am not planning on taking any trips from Texas to California (or any other trips of that distance).

The market of households with multiple cars (which one could be an EV and one a vehicle to tow the boat) combined with the market of people that don't have such a requirement is much larger than the 15k sales a year Tesla is targeting. I don't see that as a difficulty for them.

 

[Zathras]

You obviously don't live 'out west'.

Very true. If 'Out West' includes California, that happens to be where around 50% of their sales are happening.

Lots of people seem to be very happy with 200-260.

 

[Bestwifeever]

As for EVs needing to be charged, that is exactly why I will never again buy an internal combustion vehicle. It is so vastly more convenient to charge rather than stop in the middle of going somewhere and pumping noxious fluids into my vehicle.

What does your electric company use to create power?

 

[FinanceDude]

Absolutely. The biggest risk to Tesla now, IMO, is competition.
No one is offering it yet, but the 'big guys' have the R&D budget and production capability to put some serious hurt on Tesla.

As for 400-500 mile range. I don't think you will ever see it. Not because it isn't possible, but because so few people require that kind of range that such a market is just too tiny. I would rather have a 200-250 mile range car that costs 2/3rds the cost of the 400-500 mile range car.

As for EVs needing to be charged, that is exactly why I will never again buy an internal combustion vehicle. It is so vastly more convenient to charge rather than stop in the middle of going somewhere and pumping noxious fluids into my vehicle.

You do know a LOT of noxious fluids go into the electric grid that you tap into to power your Tesla no??

 

[REWahoo]

If 'Out West' includes California...

No, it doesn't.

 

[Zathras]

You do know a LOT of noxious fluids go into the electric grid that you tap into to power your Tesla no??

Most certainly! As a matter of fact, if that were the only reason for our EVs I would likely still be driving our Prius.

However, those are noxious fumes I don't have to breath. 30% of the particulate pollution in our city (Minneapolis) is due to vehicle exhaust. My vehicles no longer contribute to this.

It is far easier to control pollution at a few power plants than millions of vehicles.

And because green house gases are important to me, I have enough solar panels to generate enough energy each year to run both of our EVs.

The fuel I use is 100% American. It does not contribute to our national trade deficit and ZERO of the money goes to hostile countries or organizations.

Fueling at home is far more convenient for me as well.

Don't get me wrong, I am no Pollyanna and consider my purchases carefully.

There are lots of reasons to use an EV.
There are also lots of reasons not to.

If you are concerned about local pollution they are a slam dunk. If you are concerned about global pollution they need careful consideration (google State of Charge for a great resource).

If you are not concerned about pollution the convenience, performance and amount of space they offer is incredible.
However if you frequently drive 250+ miles and only have one vehicle, I wouldn't even consider it.

 

[ERD50]

... It is so vastly more convenient to charge rather than stop in the middle of going somewhere and pumping noxious fluids into my vehicle.

Driving our kids to college was a 200-300 mile trip one way, and we often returned the same day.

Stopping to pump in some 'noxious fluids' seems vastly more convenient than interrupter our trip for a charge, which probably means we can't do the round trip in one day.

As for EVs needing to be charged, that is exactly why I will never again buy an internal combustion vehicle.

To each their own, but this is why I probably will never buy an EV. EVs with > 120 mile range will probably be expensive enough for long enough I won't ever buy one. I put ~ 6,000 miles on a vehicle a year, the payback isn't likely to work out for me. And I make enough round trips close to 100 miles, with driving in between, that 'range anxiety' is a very real issue for me.

And I do find the smugness of that 'noxious liquids' comment you made to be a bit offensive. I'm sure the people living near a coal plant appreciate that some rich guy (anyone who can afford multiple Teslas!) won't be inconvenienced by having to stop and pump some gas. And that our country was put deeper in debt, providing subsidies for rich guys toys.


-ERD50

 

[FinanceDude]

And I do find the smugness of that 'noxious liquids' comment you made to be a bit offensive. I'm sure the people living near a coal plant appreciate that some rich guy (anyone who can afford multiple Teslas!) won't be inconvenienced by having to stop and pump some gas. And that our country was put deeper in debt, providing subsidies for rich guys toys.
-ERD50

+1

 

[ERD50]

...

It is far easier to control pollution at a few power plants than millions of vehicles. ...

But the reality is that it isn't happening, so is it really 'far easier'? We have computer controlled injection systems on cars, and catalytic converters on cars. We do not have catalytic converters on coal plants.

Compare the mercury, sulfur, and particulates of a coal plant versus a car.

If/when our electrical supply is clean, your comment will make sense. But until then, EVs need to be measured on where we are today.

-ERD50