More on the Tesla electric car

[Chuckanut]

I have to agree with ERD50 on hybrids. Having driven a state of the art model for a while I am very impressed at how well the system works. Now that the weather has warmed a bit I am finding anything less that 40 mpg on a tank does not happen. This on a medium body sized car with good power and comfort. Owners of smaller, lighter hybrids are getting 50+ mpg. Toyota is supposed to be working on a hybrid that will get 70+ mpg.

I see e-cars for the masses as city vehicles, not cross country travel vehicles.
Still the e-cars are in their infancy and who know what breakthroughs are ahead?

 

[JOHNNIE36]

Chuckanut, I looked back through the posts and haven't been able to identify the type of vehicle you drive. You say "state of the art" hybrid but I'd like to know more. We recently leased a 2013 Toyota Prius V and so far really like the car. I'm getting 43 mpg average and that is in-town driving for the most part. Some highway but 75% in town. That's not what the computer is saying either, that's actual calculation when I fill up. The computer will indicate 44+ but the actual calculation is 43. I think the system in the Prius V is state of the art as hybrids go and wonder if there is anything out there that is considered better. I looked at the Ford prior to getting the Prius and decided to go with the history and ratings of the Prius.

You mention the loss of roadways taxes on the electrics. I heard a discussion recently about how the country as a whole is losing out on road maintenance because of the improved fuel economy overall. I see higher taxes coming.

Zathras, have you seen the article in Consumers Report on the Tesla S? Great writeup.

 

[Chuckanut]

I have a 2012 Toyota Hybrid. As far as I can tell the 2013 are not much different. So, I figure I have a state of the art hybrid as far as I am concerned. There may be more advanced designs being planned, but I can't buy one yet at the same price. Perhaps I should have said a 'very modern' hybrid system. The plug-in hybrids are probably today's state of the art.

Like you I have found the car's mileage display to be slightly optimistic. I usually knock off 2 mpg when using it. My mileage claims are based upon the old fashioned calculation of dividing miles driven by gallons used.

 

[ERD50]

Two thoughts I had while mowing the lawn today:

1) Back to this talk about an EV owner also having Solar PV panels to 'fuel' the EV. Seems to me the best way to optimize this is to use EVs in areas with the cleanest grid, and to have the solar panels in an area with dirtiest grid (factoring in available sun power). You can't have both in one place, so EV/PV owners are missing out on the opportunity that could be gained by separating these functions. So maybe EV owners in clean grid areas should contract with PV installations in dirty grid areas?

2) To mow my 1 acre, I use ~ a gallon of gas. Mowers produce far more pollution per gallon burned than a modern car. So I was thinking back to the battery swap idea, and how handy it would be if I could pull a battery 'unit' from an EV or hybrid and use it to power my mower once a week in season.

But if a gallon of gas takes a Chevy Volt (very) roughly 40 miles, and the batteries take it ~ 40 miles, then it seems like I'd need the entire battery power of a Chevy Volt just to mow my grass. OK, considering that the Chevy Volt engine is probably far more efficient than my Briggs & Stratton, and the electric motors would probably be close, so maybe I could get by on less than the full battery pack. But a Chevy Volt battery weighs 435 pounds, so even half that would be some work to swap out.

-ERD50

 

[Chuckanut]

This article is about Tesla's plans for its future cars. It looks like they are aiming for a smaller, cheaper family sedan as well as a smaller SUV.

Tesla Motors Announces Fourth Car for Future Electric Vehicle Lineup | Inhabitat - Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building

 

[Midpack]

A pic of the next model, same as in the link above.

I really wish Tesla & Elon Musk all the best. Even though it doesn't make economic sense for the masses, Tesla seems to be taking an approach (establish a marque [and some cash flow] with premium cars first vs trying to enter the market against entry level value vehicles) that may eventually allow Tesla to establish a very viable even sizeable niche (shorter range second car, or urbanite commuter) as they make their models affordable to a larger segment of the population. They may never have the #1 selling car, but they don't have to, to be profitable/viable...

 

[ERD50]

This article is about Tesla's plans for its future cars. It looks like they are aiming for a smaller, cheaper family sedan as well as a smaller SUV.

Tesla Motors Announces Fourth Car for Future Electric Vehicle Lineup | Inhabitat - Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building

From that article:

“In about three to four years, that’s when we aspire to bring into production a sedan that’s about half the price of the Model S, and then shortly thereafter a small SUV as well,” says Musk. “These should be quite affordable. The price would be on the order of $35,000.”

While $35,000 isn't quite mainstream (a google of top 10 selling cars tend to run in the $17-$30K range, if you exclude the 2 or 3 trucks in there), if you factor in fuel cost savings over 7 years if you drive 12,000 miles/year, it could be competitive. But the range anxiety issues will likely remain. Let's meet back in four years to update the calculations

-ERD50

 

[clifp]

Let's meet back in four years to update the calculations
-ERD50

What you don't want to hear about how I smoked the Porsche next to me, and at the next light I asked the driver if he was trying and he said hell yes. Or how about when I was doing 110 and the cop lets me off with warning, after I let him drive it. (allegedly true stories from the Tesla forum). Or always being able to find a park spot because of the special EV charging stations. Or best of all the gas lines I didn't have to wait in.

I always make a point of dropping references to the going beach during winter, cause part of the fun of living in Hawaii is the gloating. So I am going to do the same with the Tesla for my EV skeptic friend ERD

 

[clifp]

Elon is one of the folks I follow on twitter.
I loved this tweet.

"No near term plans to IPO @SpaceX. Only possible in very long term when Mars Colonial Transporter is flying regularly."

Now next time somebody complains that all US corporations are just focused on hitting next quarters numbers. I'm going to point to SpaceX

 

[Midpack]

Elon is one of the folks I follow on twitter.
I loved this tweet.

"No near term plans to IPO @SpaceX. Only possible in very long term when Mars Colonial Transporter is flying regularly."

Now next time somebody complains that all US corporations are just focused on hitting next quarters numbers. I'm going to point to SpaceX

Based on the interviews I have seen with him, he does have a refreshing POV (seriously).

 

[RunningBum]

What you don't want to hear about how I smoked the Porsche next to me, and at the next light I asked the driver if he was trying and he said hell yes. Or how about when I was doing 110 and the cop lets me off with warning, after I let him drive it. (allegedly true stories from the Tesla forum). Or always being able to find a park spot because of the special EV charging stations. Or best of all the gas lines I didn't have to wait in.

I always make a point of dropping references to the going beach during winter, cause part of the fun of living in Hawaii is the gloating. So I am going to do the same with the Tesla for my EV skeptic friend ERD

Do you really have gas lines? Once in awhile I have to wait behind one car on a weekend at a grocery store that gives discounts to customers. That's a few minutes, max. Considering how long it takes to recharge an EV, if there aren't enough charging stations to meet demand, you are screwed if you ever have to wait like that.

 

[ERD50]

What you don't want to hear about how I smoked the Porsche next to me, and at the next light I asked the driver if he was trying and he said hell yes. Or how about when I was doing 110 and the cop lets me off with warning, after I let him drive it. (allegedly true stories from the Tesla forum). Or always being able to find a park spot because of the special EV charging stations. Or best of all the gas lines I didn't have to wait in.

I always make a point of dropping references to the going beach during winter, cause part of the fun of living in Hawaii is the gloating. So I am going to do the same with the Tesla for my EV skeptic friend ERD

But I'm also a car guy at heart (not enough to open my wallet though). I have no problem with the Tesla owners driving it like a sports car - that's what it is. My problem is eco-claims that don't seem warranted.

The cop should be reprimanded (regardless of the propulsion system of the car) - he/she is not doing their job. And I'm also not a fan of any special provisions for EVs, because I don't think it's clear that the owners are actually doing anyone else any favors - they already got a subsidy, they don't pay road tax and they want more? If EVs are so great, why do they need all these other things too?

I found a long article picking apart the 'green' of EVs. The author is clearly biased, but most of his numbers appear to hold up, and they might tell an interesting tale after backing out some of his more questionable analysis. I hope to do a little more research, then I'll post if it looks worthwhile.

Elon is one of the folks I follow on twitter.
I loved this tweet.

"No near term plans to IPO @SpaceX. Only possible in very long term when Mars Colonial Transporter is flying regularly."

Now next time somebody complains that all US corporations are just focused on hitting next quarters numbers. I'm going to point to SpaceX

But is that the case, or does he just think that this isn't the best time for an IPO? He's a bright guy, maybe he just figures that the IPO will do better after some added success stories. He's not hurting for money, id he - he can wait. Public companies are also open to more scrutiny - there was some discussion earlier that this might actually keep start-ups from going public, and limit opportunities for that public market in general.

[off-topic] As far as 'gloating' about the weather (you can keep it, if I liked HI overall, I'd move there), just remember that we don't 'gloat' when it is hurricane season or there is an approaching tsunami. Snow storms, ice storms and severe heat/cold result in deaths here - sorry to be such a downer, but gloating is just bad form and comes across as somewhat ignorant and arrogant, as it ignores that not everyone wants that kind of weather year round along with the other pros/cons of living on a remote island. We have brains, we can make those decisions for ourselves, and we do. I know, it's usually meant in a kidding fashion, but it gets old, and I've heard it my entire adult life. [off my soapbox, and apologies in advance if that was too rough, but it touched a nerve. That nerve has been building for ~ 40 years - you are just the lucky recipient of my wrath ]

-ERD50

 

[Powor]

I really wish I could afford the Tesla. I've heard a lot of good things about it, but I really just love the way it looks and sounds. I don't travel long distances so I think it would work out well for my needs. Has anyone actually purchased this beauty?

 

[ERD50]

I really wish I could afford the Tesla. I've heard a lot of good things about it, but I really just love the way it looks and sounds. I don't travel long distances so I think it would work out well for my needs. Has anyone actually purchased this beauty?

Zathras has one (two? or a Tesla and a Volt?). clifp has one on order. There may be more, but I don't think they've made it public.

-ERD50

 

[clifp]

Do you really have gas lines? Once in awhile I have to wait behind one car on a weekend at a grocery store that gives discounts to customers. That's a few minutes, max. Considering how long it takes to recharge an EV, if there aren't enough charging stations to meet demand, you are screwed if you ever have to wait like that.

Well I pretty much only fill up at Costco, since it is both the cheapest place and some place that I pass by 3-4x a week. Typically there 2-3 cars ahead per lane, so I am pretty sure I average almost 10 minutes per trip. I don't drive much so I fill up 2x month. My guess is typical mainland driver fills up 3-4x month and is generally in an out of the gas station in 5 minutes, except for the time when you are running low on fuel and you have to go out of your way to find a service station. Anyway 20 minutes a month seems like a reasonable estimate for the amount of time people spend getting gas a month or 4 hours a year. Plus let's face it getting gas is a minor hassle.

If you never take long trips (like me cause I live on an island) than that is benefit for the EV owner. I may plug into the the charging stations just for grins but basically I'll always be charging at home. On other hand if you want to take a long trip 300-500 miles in a Tesla using the supercharging networking, you are going to spend 30 to 60 minutes extra because of slower speeds, more frequents stops, and longer stops.

If you make a couple long trips a year you'll save time with the Tesla, if you make a couple trips a month, it isn't the right car for you cause the irritation of waiting at supercharging (especially if they are filled) will outweigh the hassles of going to gas station.

On the other hand, the more or less maintenance free aspect of the car, couple with the downloading software fixes via the cloud is big benefit to me. As a single person taking my car to get it service waste nearly 1/2 day, since I end up taking the bus to retrieve it.

 

[Chuckanut]

Perhaps an electric car owner can post the maintenance schedule for their car so we can get an idea of what is involved.

The other day I saw a [-]Texas[/-] Tesla Ranger van cruising the local highways. They provide home service for these expensive cars. No sign of the Loan Ranger though.

 

[RunningBum]

but basically I'll always be charging at home.

Ah, that's the part I blanked out on. Makes perfect sense. For use a commuter car, all you have to do is remember to plug it in at home, so it's not gas station vs. charging station, it's gas station vs. none. Thanks.

 

[yakers]

Ah, that's the part I blanked out on. Makes perfect sense. For use a commuter car, all you have to do is remember to plug it in at home, so it's not gas station vs. charging station, it's gas station vs. none. Thanks.

Yep, it took me a while to realize that my gas station is at home. And maintenance, there just isn't much to do:

All-New Ford Focus Electric: The Most Maintenance-Free Ford Ever | Ford Motor Company Newsroom

 

[clifp]

Perhaps an electric car owner can post the maintenance schedule for their car so we can get an idea of what is involved.

The other day I saw a [-]Texas[/-] Tesla Ranger van cruising the local highways. They provide home service for these expensive cars. No sign of the Loan Ranger though.

Well in reading the manual. Tesla advises, rotating and replacing tires, replacing windshield wipers, filling up the windshield wiper fluid. Other than that nothing is required. In fact, Elon made a point of changing the warranty so if you never bring the car into a service center you are still covered for 8 years on battery 125,000 mile (unlimited for the 85KW battery)

No oil to change, no timing to worry about. In fact really don't even need to change brake pads, since almost all of the braking is regenerative, other than slamming on the brakes the pads don't get used.

Of course this is all in theory we will see in practice.

 

[Zathras]

I really wish I could afford the Tesla. I've heard a lot of good things about it, but I really just love the way it looks and sounds. I don't travel long distances so I think it would work out well for my needs. Has anyone actually purchased this beauty?

Yes, we just replaced our Volt with a second Tesla. So we have one that is the 85kWh model and one that is the 60kWh model.

@Chuckanut, scheduled service is basically every 12,500 ,miles.
They check the lubrication for for one moving part in the motor (ball bearing), and a bunch of mundane things (alignment, tire wear, etc).

We have 11,500 on our first and are looking forward seeing what the 12,500 service is like.

 

[clifp]

Zathras did you purchase the service plan?

 

[Zathras]

Zathras did you purchase the service plan?

Yes, 20% off and free replacement of almost any parts made it an easy decision.

I did the four year prepaid plan, not the extra 4 years, nor the extended warrantee.

 

[Malcolm2]

I saw a special on the S version Tesla. It said the battery alone costs $30k and that the company will be challenged to get the price below $50k. I think after the large government rebate of $7500 the car is now still 70,000.

Also Tesla has large loans from the U.S. government that are dragging them down .

Seems pricey with little net environmental benefit.

 

[Zathras]

I saw a special on the S version Tesla. It said the battery alone costs $30k and that the company will be challenged to get the price below $50k.

Speculation. Possible, but a guess on the part of whoever produced the special.

What we know for a fact is that Tesla is selling battery replacements for people that are concerned about the battery packs.
You can buy a pack for $10,000 or $12,000 for a battery pack in 8 years.

The base Model S was originally $57,400. After rebate, that was $49,900.
Only a few were ordered so they discontinued that model.

I think after the large government rebate of $7500 the car is now still 70,000.

The current base model is $62,400 after the rebate.

Also Tesla has large loans from the U.S. government that are dragging them down .

I know of many companies, especially start up companies that have government loans.
In Tesla's case they had a 465 million dollar loan which they paid back a week or two ago.

Seems pricey with little net environmental benefit.

No doubt, it is very pricey as are other luxury cars.
Many people buying it could care less about the environmental benefits.
The are buying it for the performance, or the technology, or the quality of the drive experience.

 

[travelover]

..........
No doubt, it is very pricey as are other luxury cars.
Many people buying it could care less about the environmental benefits.
The are buying it for the performance, or the technology, or the quality of the drive experience.

You don't understand. If you buy an electric or hybrid car, you are obligated to justify it to the naysayers. Buy an F350 to commute to work and you are cool. Buy a Tesla and you are not saving enough energy to justify the batteries' negative environmental effects.