My reason for urgently needing a HELOC

[Bestwifeever]

Fuego, I wonder too if you want to not lend her the money because it would involve you too much. Let the lowlifes find out where she got the financial help from, and perhaps they're on the phone or worse at your door when she resumes the activity and owes more money. Maybe you would even be viewed as abetting a criminal if the illegal activity was busted by the police. I imagine that's a stretch, but you do have your own family to protect. Just a thought as to another reason to keep your financial distance from her.

I think Martha's suggestion to pay for a residential treatment program out of town (instead of paying her debts) would be a very compassionate offer.

 

[Texas Proud]

As Fuego has said... this is probably back room gambling... and there probably is some consequencies (sp?) behind NOT paying the debt..

One thing I would ask... what is the interest rate on the 'loan'... It already might be a lot higher than what we are talking about... are you SURE that what you give her will pay it off

I will say again if you do give the money... that you make her feel some pain... get a car.. get the gold.. get as much as you can of what she has... even this will not help if she is like my friend... as I said, she has lost cars, houses, husbands and have not changed...

Like others.... if the husband says as strongly as he has not to help... then why would you pick the addict over his opinion

 

[Zero]

Most Asians that I have known personally here in CA really enjoy gambling. I know that some of the Asian cultures consider gambling at a friend's home as just an evening of fun and camaraderie. So it's likely that she has incurred most of this as part of her social life, rather than some alley with her mojo hand and some dice.

So I think the worst thing that might happen to the SIL if she welches on the debt is that she will be considered a "low-life" and shunned by the rest of the Asian community there.

I would advise NOT paying a dime of it. Her gambling days will be over. Taken care of by word of mouth and likely no further invitations to gambling events. All good.

 

[ATC KH]

$23K in debt from gambling at house parties? It certainly seems that there is a lot that is missing from this story. If you want to be involved, the first question I would ask is to whom she owes this money. Knowing this answer will determine what courses of action need to be taken to help her.

 

[Texas Proud]

Most Asians that I have known personally here in CA really enjoy gambling. I know that some of the Asian cultures consider gambling at a friend's home as just an evening of fun and camaraderie. So it's likely that she has incurred most of this as part of her social life, rather than some alley with her mojo hand and some dice.

So I think the worst thing that might happen to the SIL if she welches on the debt is that she will be considered a "low-life" and shunned by the rest of the Asian community there.

I would advise NOT paying a dime of it. Her gambling days will be over. Taken care of by word of mouth and likely no further invitations to gambling events. All good.

That is one of the reasons I had said to find out who is owed the money... if it is 'the community' and not someone who will come and cause physical harm... then your suggestion is the way to go... but if it is not...

 

[MichaelB]

At the end of the day, there's a good chance our relationship with the sister will be tarnished regardless of whether we give her the money. Might as well be $23000 richer and 1 SIL poorer.

If you give the money or not will make no difference in the relationship. Nothing will make a difference until she gets help.

The husband has been less than subtle - which is what is so persuasive that makes me want to trust him. He knows their family finances are swirling the bowl and going down the drain right now, and he has accepted that it will be difficult to climb out of this. But I think he is concerned that we are going to be sucked into this too.

If this is the case, imagine how this money could help once the addiction has been faced and is being treated.

 

[Achiever51]

Here's what I think. DO NOT give her any more money. If you do, you are just enabling her. Do not crack under any family pressure to give her money. If you give her money, IMO you would just be throwing money away. She needs to learn the consequences of her actions and apparently she hasn't had to face many yet.

I wholeheartedly agree! I went through a similar situation with DH's nephew, who "borrowed" from just about every family member -- always with a convincing story about some unfair event that led him to need the $$ immediately, and always with a promise to return the money with interest. No money was ever returned; no lessons were learned (except by the family suckers who were taken); and nephew finally ended up on the wrong side of the law and is now in jail.

Although I wouldn't do it, IF you do decide to give any money toward this disaster, I WOULD NOT GIVE IT TO THE SIL under any circumstances. You might offer to directly pay one/more of their household bills, but to give $$ to her is likely to go directly to more gambling.

 

[Leonidas]

Back when I was the king of sex, drugs, alcohol and gambling, we would field 75-100 calls a week from family members of addicted gamblers. It was difficult to explain to someone whose loved one had stolen everything - including food from their childrens' mouths - that enforcement of the laws against illegal gambling was such a low priority that it would be months (if not years) before we could get around to closing that particular game.

Gambling addicts are just like drug addicts or alcoholics. They can't stop until they've hit their own version of rock bottom. Too many of them destroy their lives, and often the lives of their families in the process. They are liars and thieves to support their habits and nothing they say should be believed, especially when it comes to borrowing money or getting help.

If I were you, I wouldn't give her the money for the sake of your family's safety. I was a detective in Chinatown and Little Saigon and I know how gambling debts are settled when the gamblers can't pay. You don't want to be identified either in her mind, or the minds of the collectors, as a possible source of funds.

 

[donheff]

Sorry Fuego. I read your posts and haven't seen word one that would indicate that you are actually helping the family by making this loan.

 

[Westernskies]

If I were you, I wouldn't give her the money for the sake of your family's safety. I was a detective in Chinatown and Little Saigon and I know how gambling debts are settled when the gamblers can't pay. You don't want to be identified either in her mind, or the minds of the collectors, as a possible source of funds.

+1

It could be a slippery slope from "helping" with a gambling debt to becoming involved in blackmail or kidnappping, depending on how desperate and determined the bill collectors are. You do not want to be seen as Mr. Moneybags on this one.

 

[FUEGO]

If I were you, I wouldn't give her the money for the sake of your family's safety. I was a detective in Chinatown and Little Saigon and I know how gambling debts are settled when the gamblers can't pay. You don't want to be identified either in her mind, or the minds of the collectors, as a possible source of funds.

This is certainly a concern of mine. So far the general consensus is that physical threats are a low probability. Hopefully failure to pay will result in shunning and excommunication (by those worthless lowlifes that aren't worth worrying about anyway).

The Asian community here isn't very large, but I know a lot of them have less than noble values and morals. Mostly just playing fast and loose with taxes, insurance fraud, under the table deals, etc. As far as I know, most of the hard core gangs aren't active in the community here. It is nothing like what DW's cousins experience in Long Beach, California. Definitely a different story there.

If any money is provided to SIL, protective measures will be put in place to conceal the source of funds. The last thing I want is some gangstas on my front steps.

 

[NW-Bound]

I am also with the unanimous view that you should not give any money to SIL, leave alone taking a HELOC on your own house.

It's time she gets some tough [-]sh*t[/-] love, not more money! What she deserves is some [-]spanking[/-] caning (administered by her family, not you ).

 

[easysurfer]

Fuego, I think you need to find a way to convince DW (you metioned that she has like 60% say in the matter), that it's not in both of your best interests to bail out her sister. I know that won't be easy, but if you can, then DW can say to SIL, "DH just won't allow it". End of conversation -- hopefully

I'm not married, so I might be making it seem easier said than done, but I've seen it so many times, an accepted answer is "DS (dear spouse) decides against it" and the answer is finalized. You have to get to this point.

 

[DangerMouse]

If I read your posts right, said SIL was helping the ILs with their finances? If that is the case might be time to conduct an audit to see if she has been helping herself to the kitty.

To me the first step to be taken is she needs to be undergoing some kind of treatment. Hardcore gamblers can't just say I'm done and they are over it. It is an addiction. The second thing is the word needs to go out to those in the community that she has been gambling with that none of her debts are going to be paid for her so it is in their best interest to exclude her from any future games.

Good luck with your decision. I can't see any outcome that will make you a winner in this one.

 

[FUEGO]

Fuego, I think you need to find a way to convince DW (you metioned that she has like 60% say in the matter), that it's not in both of your best interests to bail out her sister. I know that won't be easy, but if you can, then DW can say to SIL, "DH just won't allow it". End of conversation -- hopefully

I'm not married, so I might be making it seem easier said than done, but I've seen it so many times, an accepted answer is "DS (dear spouse) decides against it" and the answer is finalized. You have to get to this point.

This may be the approach we end up taking. I have offered to be "the bad guy" and say "no", and then DW can say, "we make financial decisions of this magnitude jointly, and I respect his decision in this matter. Unfortunately we cannot help you".

During the intervention we are going to determine to whom exactly all these debts are owed. Assuming it isn't to leg breakers, we will encourage defaulting, or making some token payment and stating that that is all she has (which is true).

More info has come out recently. Apparently she has approached others in the family about borrowing money, always with "this is a secret, no one else can know". She has also said "you can't tell my husband, he will divorce me", which is ironic because it is the lying, sneaking and gambling that is making the husband examine his continued role in the relationship. Their son's college account of $1000 was raided and is empty now (3 years away from college).

IF (a big if) we do lend any money, we will be making a number of conditions (too long to list here in full). And we will receive security interests on her currently unencumbered SUV (jointly titled), and a security interest on her gold jewelry by physically possessing it. In the event she defaults, we liquidate the jewelry first (goin to da pawn shop). Then take her car.

One hitch with the car is that it is jointly titled, so her husband would also have to sign over the title to us as lienholders. He has previously expressed he will not do so at this point, so that may be a deal breaker. Whatever the outcome, I doubt we will be making a loan for any amounts exceeding any security we will receive. Don't know if it is $1000 in gold or $10,000 or $20,000 or what.

And at this point, DW's mom (SIL's mom also) has agreed to put up 1/2 the amount needed without requiring any security interest in anything. Which has cut our potential loss to a much more reasonable (sarcasm) $10000 or so, less any security we might receive.

The problem with mom putting up the money is, they aren't exactly wealthy. They will have the typical American retirement - paid off house, smallish social security x2, and a low five figure savings account. This amount they will be "loaning" represents a significant portion of their savings.

 

[FUEGO]

If I read your posts right, said SIL was helping the ILs with their finances? If that is the case might be time to conduct an audit to see if she has been helping herself to the kitty.

I think it might be the other way around. She would occasionally put in some of her own money to help pay her mom and dad's bills if they really needed help in one particular month. There is so much commingling though, it would take a lot of forensic accounting to figure this out. This episode will probably result in a change in who helps out the parents will making sure bills are paid correctly. Luckily the parents' house has not been constantly refinanced. I think they are 3-4 years from having the house paid off and only currently owe about 20% LTV on it.

 

[FUEGO]

I had not thought about it in this context, but when you add up all the other lines of credit and borrowing that SIL has done on top of the $23k debt, it may be $40k+ total (including the $23k). We will probably never know how much monthly income from working was diverted from her family's finances into gambling. The response was classic "Well, I win some and I lose some".

 

[Leonidas]

I had not thought about it in this context, but when you add up all the other lines of credit and borrowing that SIL has done on top of the $23k debt, it may be $40k+ total (including the $23k). We will probably never know how much monthly income from working was diverted from her family's finances into gambling. The response was classic "Well, I win some and I lose some".

Just further evidence of how addicts lie to everyone to keep getting their fix.

Fuego, your sis-in-law is blazing brightly in the fire of self-destruction - don't toss your hard-earned money into the flames.

 

[MichaelB]

Fuego, your sis-in-law is blazing brightly in the fire of self-destruction - don't toss your hard-earned money into the flames.

You have a way with words...

 

[FUEGO]

Just further evidence of how addicts lie to everyone to keep getting their fix.

Fuego, your sis-in-law is blazing brightly in the fire of self-destruction - don't toss your hard-earned money into the flames.

What if there is a strong possibility these people are leg-breakers or may retain the services of leg-breakers? What course of action should be followed to keep the leg breaking to a minimum? Particularly my legs, DW's legs and my kids' legs?

 

[easysurfer]

Fuego,

One more thought about during the intervention. In the Asian culture, honor and shame are valued. So, during the intervention, DW and you should be sure to mention how your SIL has shamed the family by being so irresponsible in getting to this point. I say that not to kick someone but this might actually help the SIL see the light and hit rock-bottom, if that is possible.

Easysurfer

 

[FUEGO]

Fuego,

One more thought about during the intervention. In the Asian culture, honor and shame are valued. So, during the intervention, DW and you should be sure to mention how your SIL has shamed the family by being so irresponsible in getting to this point. I say that not to kick someone but this might actually help the SIL see the light and hit rock-bottom, if that is possible.

Easysurfer

I think that is what will happen. Either we explicitly tell her how embarrassing and damaging this all is for her family, or it will be obvious from how we describe the impacts of her actions on us.

I'm hoping "shame" will be very effective in keeping her out of card games. Shame will work like peer pressure from her family. And if she partially or fully defaults on her gambling debt, she will be shamed by those doing the gambling and lending because they will spread the word that she is untrustworthy. Which works out perfectly, since she won't be able to get credit from anyone to gamble more.

Her 3 kids (age 9-14) were informed yesterday by my DW that their mother is a gambling addict, and has wasted away all the family's money. The gambling SIL wanted to shield her kids from the ugly truth, but they already know in varying degrees that she spends a lot of time and money gambling.

 

[FUEGO]

Oh yeah, does anyone know the appropriate kind of food we should serve at an intervention? We are hosting it.

 

[audreyh1]

Cold water and coffee/tea? How to Host an Intervention | eHow.com

 

[FUEGO]

Cold water and coffee/tea? How to Host an Intervention | eHow.com

"Now we need to put away anything that is glass or can be thrown easily in the room we are using or the adjacent rooms. Remember an intervention can be a dangerous and violent thing to go through for everyone involved."

But seriously, I need to make sure we don't have any weapon-like objects sitting around. I think having ample boxes of tissues at hand will also be helpful. Not sure if this will be an angry drag out fight or a sad, crying event. Or both.