My reason for urgently needing a HELOC

[FUEGO]

I had a lot of things to say about this, but none of it seems to work for me. This is sad and wrong. I thought that a possible solution here was for the husband to divorce her and take the kids, but I'm starting to think he has some functionality issues as well. That, or he's just no kid of man that I can empathize or sympathize with.

I didn't realize the mention of the sandwich would set off a debate!

It was one of those huge 2' suckers from the grocery store I think. So probably an ample brunch for 4. I'm sure they had SOME food around the house (asian people, so they had rice and soy sauce at a minimum). Just that I heard multiple comments from the husband that "things aren't like they used to be at our house" in regards to always having something to eat.

I don't think any of the intervention's invitees were expecting a meal - I actually mentioned "what to serve" in jest in this thread. But I was hungry and about to cook a steak for DW and I, then she suggested we don't have enough for SIL's husband and kids who arrived a few hours early (around 3 pm, intervention around 6 pm), so I switched it up last minute to a huge pot of spaghetti and sauce. I would feel just a tinge guilty gorging on steak in front of my BIL and nephews! But BIL was too proud to ask for anything to eat. We just made the food and asked him to eat with us. I know for 100% this was not a pity plea or some acting on his behalf - he's the one telling me NOT to give his gambling wife the $$.

I did realize some of where our food has been going. We always send a good bit of food to MIL's house each Monday to feed our kids for the week (who stay with MIL during the day). It seems to be a lot of food that we would send every week. Apparently the SIL would grab a little here and there to make something at home, and her 3 boys age 9-13 eat WAY more than me it seems (and I'm quite the glutton!) while they were staying at grandma's house along with my kids. Not a big deal though, since for years we have traded food back and forth if someone makes a lot of something or grows a lot of extra stuff in their gardens. I would rather provide food for my nephews than them starve.

That postponed steak dinner is calling me right now, so I'll post more later.

 

[FUEGO]

For all I know it might work out better financially and emotionally if you sink $100k into SiL over the coming year and have DW give up on her as opposed to arguing over $23k and collecting collateral and other things leading to a divorce. Or perhaps she'll pay back the $23k, she stops gambling, everyone's happy and you and DW are the heroes of the family. Or maybe DW washes her hands of sister after she stops paying back the $23k and needs another $5k.

DW and I are generally in agreement on this. DW's "she is my sister, I want to help her" voice is screaming louder than the "$23k is a lot of money" voice. I have tried to be the voice of reason. I have explained that even if we gave her money, it would not necessarily help, and it may actually make the problem worse, since it clears her debts to the gamblers, proves her credit history is solid with the gamblers and may let them lend $50,000 next time.

DW and I came to an agreement today of how to approach SIL with our decision. DW and I realize this is not directly our problem, and we refuse to let it put a wedge between us. But yes, I would rather lose $10k or $23k and keep DW happy even if I had to say "I told you so" later. But it most likely won't come to that.

 

[FUEGO]

I'm not criticizing, just surprised that someone of your caliber of posts is heading down this road. If this is emotion or family ties being favored over logic then I comprehend the reasoning. But you haven't really addressed your reasoning over why you think it's better to enable an addict than to force them to stop causing their problems.

This is basically my reasoning. The desire (partly mine, mostly DW's) to help family is very strong. But the desire to not enable continued gambling is strong too. And the desire to not lose a bunch of money on a wasteful purpose (enabling a gambling addict) is strong.

 

[FUEGO]

So to answer the question, how did the intervention go?

It was fairly short, maybe 1.5 hours. Most of it was not in English, so I only gathered what happened during parts of it after it was over. SIL gambler basically promised to not gamble any more to her mother and to us. She says she knows it is embarrassing to the family and has hurt her immediate family and put them in a bad spot.

But she did not seem apologetic, sorry, or remorseful in her actions. It really did seem like she was pissed that she has to come groveling before her family to ask for money to bail her out. Overall, I have the gut feeling that she isn't quite over gambling yet. She says that if we don't help her now, she is afraid of the temptation to go back and gamble more to try to get out of her gambling debt. On top of that, when I asked her to go to her gambling creditors and tell them she is flat broke and just can't pay them the interest, she says that she just can't do that. This statement doesn't make sense to me, since if she is really done with gambling, what is to keep her from telling her gambling "friends" the truth??

The gambling debt (that she has admitted to at least) was just shy of $22,000. $12,000 was owed to one couple without provision for interest. $5500 owed to a 2nd person. $2500 owed to a third person. $1500 owed to a fourth person. The $5500 and $2500 amounts carry 10% interest. That's per month.

I stated at the intervention that I am not making a decision on the spot about lending any money. That DW and I would have to discuss it first given the amount of money. DW's and SIL's mother (my MIL) agreed to pay the $12000 debt out of her own savings, and not charge SIL any interest. The remaining $10,300 (the $9500 principal plus $800 in various interest) was suggested to be loaned from us. MIL agreed to indemnify us if SIL missed any payments. The terms discussed were $500 a month and 18% interest, which would take 2 years for us to get repaid, then MIL's $12000 would take another 2 years.

We discussed their finances and income. Lots of CC debt - $500 monthly minimum payments. Which means $20,000-40000 principal amounts owed. Mortgage is $1600 a month. No car payments. All together, their somewhat variable monthly income would allow them very little room to pay for much after this extra $500 gambling debt repayment is included. But if they cut corners and reduced spending a lot, they could probably barely manage it.

SIL's husband did not want to sign title of the car or house over to us (sensible!). He has a $7000 gold necklace that will be consumed in an emergency (this isn't an emergency to him). He's looking at step 2 if he has to leave the SIL if things get really bad.

So we left the intervention with MIL agreeing to pay the $12000 debt. No agreement for DW and I to pay anything.

I have discussed her behavior with SIL's husband and he's not convinced she is done either. The first 10% interest is due in 2 weeks, then the next one in six weeks from now. DW and I decided on a course of action. No money in the next 2 weeks. If SIL actually stops gambling for the next six weeks AND attends gambler's anonymous weekly, we will consider helping with the $10,300. She is responsible for figuring out the 10% interest between herself and her creditors - renegotiate if she can.

This was explained to SIL, and she basically balked at the suggestion to attend Gambler's Anon. I kept explaining to her over and over that gambling to get our of your gambling debt is NEVER the right approach. She can stop now, repay these people, and get out of the game so to speak. And keep her family intact and keep her house and car, husband and kids.

Hopefully she will have six weeks to think about it, and make some steps to improve herself. In the meantime, she will have a hard time borrowing more from the creditors that she is just paying 10% interest to and no principal. We will see how it goes and think about it again in 5-6 weeks.

Anything she does from here on won't surprise me. I'm not sure what to think that she will do. But so far no money has left my pocket, which is a good thing. I think the intervention and the stern discussion I had with her today has opened her eyes to the fact that what she is doing is very serious and damaging, and she needs to make a decision to stop the gambling. What she does from here is her choice.

DW is basically on board with me, but more willing to help out financially. But we are holding fast for 6 weeks. We tried to tell MIL that she is potentially enabling SIL and forking over a big share of her life's savings to bail out the extremely irresponsible behaviors of her daughter. "But she is family". What can you do?

 

[bbbamI]

He has a $7000 gold necklace that will be consumed in an emergency (this isn't an emergency to him).

DW is basically on board with me, but more willing to help out financially. But we are holding fast for 6 weeks.

I think the above statements are the key. It seems as if your BIL does not fear physical retaliation. Hopefully this is the case and perhaps your wife will have greater peace of mind (as I am a woman, that is the way I would feel).

Meanwhile the six weeks will enable you both to breathe a bit and see things more clearly. As I said before, what is best for you and your wife is what matters; peace in your own home.

 

[W2R]

But she did not seem apologetic, sorry, or remorseful in her actions. It really did seem like she was pissed that she has to come groveling before her family to ask for money to bail her out.

$10,300 (the $9500 principal plus $800 in various interest) was suggested to be loaned from us.

SIL's husband did not want to sign title of the car or house over to us (sensible!). He has a $7000 gold necklace that will be consumed in an emergency (this isn't an emergency to him).

If it is not an emergency to her husband, it probably isn't an emergency to you. You probably have other things you might like to use your money for, too. Maybe you would like to buy a nice gold necklace of your own (or something else). With $10,300, you could buy a bigger gold necklace than his.

 

[easysurfer]

Looks like the intervention went well. Especially the part about the stern discussion to open her eyes about how serious it is. What she will do, as you said, is up in the air, but it's good to know that everyone is clear that what she does is up to her.

 

[REWahoo]

How are you going to verify that she doesn't gamble for the 6 week period? You certainly can't take her word for it...

 

[haha]

I think the above statements are the key. It seems as if your BIL does not fear physical retaliation.

Well for sure this is one interpretation.

ha

 

[DivinDave]

I hate to be cold about this but sometimes the best thing you can do is . . . nothing.

 

[Texas Proud]

Sounds to me like nothing has changed.... except a dinner with the family...

She has not 'admitted' to herself that she has a problem... she has lied to her family that she does... but they all do...

If she is not willing to get treatment... this is all I would need to know... no 6 weeks.. no money... no nothing...

And like I said a long time ago... if they are not willing to 'feel the pain' by losing a car or the gold etc.... why should 'I' feel any...

The SIL's husband seem to be the only one who is doing the right thing... and everybody else is being an enabler.....

Fuego... I know why you are doing it... because of your wife... but why help your wife do something destructive to her sister And maybe even destructive to your marriage...

 

[NW-Bound]

A bit more about my gambling uncle...

To my knowledge, he never admitted to having a problem, never admitted any guilt. Yes, his wife left him, and it is a good thing that one of his children took him in, else he would be homeless. They are living in a different state, and I still see him once every few years, at family functions like funerals or weddings. We have little in common, though we would make good conversations whenever we meet. As far as I know, his gambling finally stopped some years ago, when he was thoroughly broke and could not ask anybody for any more handout.

 

[FUEGO]

How are you going to verify that she doesn't gamble for the 6 week period? You certainly can't take her word for it...

We will know if she is out all night Saturday nights and Sunday all day. Everyone is on the look out, and you can't really keep secrets. We will never know for sure, but she won't be able to go out to parties without someone knowing, and through the grapevine we will hear.

Her attitude in six weeks is really what I'm looking at as much as the ceasing the gambling.

 

[FUEGO]

Sounds to me like nothing has changed.... except a dinner with the family...

She has not 'admitted' to herself that she has a problem... she has lied to her family that she does... but they all do...

If she is not willing to get treatment... this is all I would need to know... no 6 weeks.. no money... no nothing...

And like I said a long time ago... if they are not willing to 'feel the pain' by losing a car or the gold etc.... why should 'I' feel any...

The SIL's husband seem to be the only one who is doing the right thing... and everybody else is being an enabler.....

Fuego... I know why you are doing it... because of your wife... but why help your wife do something destructive to her sister And maybe even destructive to your marriage...

Apparently most of her gold is gone. Only $2-3k worth left and her mother is keeping it right now. She has sold the rest over the years.

The fact that she refuses to go to Gamblers Anon does concern me. But she could also agree to go just to put on appearances. I think it might help her see her problem from another angle. But again, she has to be ready for that.

I think SIL hearing me say "Your sister and I just don't trust you" should hammer home what we see in her right now. This view of her is RADICALLY different than what we thought of her just 1 week ago. She is named in our will to take care of our kids should DW and I meet our simultaneous untimely demise. We did have the forethought to name my parents as financial conservators of all assets to be held for our kids (my parents are just better with money generally). The severity of the gambling thing is like a bombshell to us.

I do think SIL's husband is the most noble actor in all this, and I'm trying to follow his lead for the most part. He says he wants to see her gambling free for at least 9 months (till after Christmas) before he declares her "cured".

 

[NW-Bound]

Time for some music...

I have posted this favorite song of mine before. It's one of a few that I have to listen to every so often, ever since my adolescent years. This version of a folk song is by The Animals, although Bob Dylan's version is also popular.

My father was a gamblin' man
Down in New Orleans

Now the only thing a gambler needs
Is a suitcase and trunk
And the only time he's satisfied
Is when he's on a drunk

Oh mother tell your children
Not to do what I have done
Spend your lives in sin and misery
In the House of the Rising Sun​

YouTube - The Animals - House of the Rising Sun (1964) High Definition [HD]

By the way, the singer, Eric Burdon, born in 1941, is still alive.

PS. My gambling uncle was also a mild alcoholic.

 

[Westernskies]

With $10,300, you could buy a bigger gold necklace than his.

Heck, for $10,300 you could get yourself a really nice Mr. T starter kit!

 

[W2R]

Heck, for $10,300 you could get yourself a really nice Mr. T starter kit!

I think you would look especially nice in that.

 

[Nords]

This is basically my reasoning. The desire (partly mine, mostly DW's) to help family is very strong. But the desire to not enable continued gambling is strong too. And the desire to not lose a bunch of money on a wasteful purpose (enabling a gambling addict) is strong.

I think the intervention went as well as it could be expected to go, but I wouldn't call it successful. As Gumby and M_Paquette would recognize, the root cause has not been addressed.

"Successful" would be her going to GA at least once a week with her spouse or one of the family accompanying her. Her spouse & kids would really benefit from the family version of GA, too, to understand her problem and how to really help instead of the current enabling & salving consciences.

What everyone's offering to do now may be with the best of intentions, and may make everyone else feel really really good about themselves, but it ain't going to solve the problem. The reason she's not going to change her behavior is because she has no reason to change her behavior-- plenty of other people are changing their behaviors to help her, so why should she? She won't be ready to change her behavior until you have all stopped coming to her "assistance".

I have to admit that these interventions were a lot more successful when it was called "Captain's Mast"... some lost pay, perhaps some extra duty or restriction, maybe a reduction in rank, but wait! Potential salvation is at hand: punishment suspended for six months contingent upon completing the Navy's addiction program, which included many meetings at Alcoholics or Gamblers Anonymous. (The Navy does not do NA.) That approach provided a hand up and training to change one's behavior, along with a big stick upside the head to obtain their full attention. The success rate that I personally observed was over 90%. (Which tells you something about the Navy culture in the 1980s/1990s.) The one or two unrepentant disbelievers were quickly invited to complete their punishment and to exit the submarine force.

On my second submarine it used to freak out the junior sailors, who were attending their first AA meeting, to see our CO sitting a few rows behind them. He wasn't just a spokesperson for AA, he was a client too.

There was a Michael Keaton movie a few years back... "Clean & Sober"? I forget the title. He was essentially attending AA meetings while under investigation/indictment for a drug-related death and workplace embezzlement, so he felt that he didn't really have a problem and was only going to put up with it until the authorities saw his side of the story. (But meanwhile, hey, there's some hot chicks at these meetings!) Around his second or third meeting, as he heard the stories of his fellow attendees and got to know them, he finally began to understand his own [-]bullshit[/-] denial.

So if your family really wants to do the right thing, it certainly won't be as easy as what everyone is contemplating doing now. And it can't be done by family rushing to the rescue... only by her being called on her behavior by other people who've lived the life she's living.

No offense or insults intended. I can't help but take a hard line here because I've seen the results of the line your family is taking.

 

[Rustic23]

If you do decide to 'lend' them money, do you self a favor, don't look for repayment. Consider it a gift. You can structure it as a loan if you want, but if you really treat it as a loan you will get very angry every time a payment is missed, and the probability is they will be missed. The stress of this will put even more stress on you and your wife. Even if you can 'let it go' the probability is your wife will not be able to let it go.

I say this from experience. We lent our kids money, and like I said, the repayment schedule just did not work out. We ended up telling them it was a gift, and if we ever needed it back, they would have to do anything necessary including selling their house to pay it back! But for now we never want to hear about it again. That took the stress away from us, however, I don't think it has for them.

 

[RunningBum]

But she did not seem apologetic, sorry, or remorseful in her actions. It really did seem like she was pissed that she has to come groveling before her family to ask for money to bail her out.
...
DW and I decided on a course of action. No money in the next 2 weeks. If SIL actually stops gambling for the next six weeks AND attends gambler's anonymous weekly, we will consider helping with the $10,300. She is responsible for figuring out the 10% interest between herself and her creditors - renegotiate if she can.

This was explained to SIL, and she basically balked at the suggestion to attend Gambler's Anon.

...

I think the intervention and the stern discussion I had with her today has opened her eyes to the fact that what she is doing is very serious and damaging, and she needs to make a decision to stop the gambling.

Just an observation, but that last statement doesn't add up with the others. I hope you are able to hold her to the terms of the deal, and not just fix her current situation, but actually help her overcome the gambling problem.

 

[kumquat]

The gambling debt (that she has admitted to at least) was just shy of $22,000. $12,000 was owed to one couple without provision for interest. $5500 owed to a 2nd person. $2500 owed to a third person. $1500 owed to a fourth person. The $5500 and $2500 amounts carry 10% interest. That's per month.

That interest rate might be above state maximums.

 

[FUEGO]

So if your family really wants to do the right thing, it certainly won't be as easy as what everyone is contemplating doing now. And it can't be done by family rushing to the rescue... only by her being called on her behavior by other people who've lived the life she's living.

I understand this. I think everyone in the family except her mother is coming around to this understanding. We are all saying to her "You have a serious problem and we do not intend to help financially while you continue to gamble or consider gambling an option to get you out of your debt".

I suggested Gambler's Anon as a good option to consider. I told her to give it a try - show up at a meeting or two and see what they have to offer. I can't force her.

We have told my MIL that giving her more money and bailing her out so quickly is just too quick and easy for her and that she isn't going to just quit just like that. But we can't control MIL either.

Like I said, I'm going to see how this thing goes. SIL's actions in the next six weeks, or the next 4 after that, or the next 4 after that, etc etc will show me whether she is on the road to recovery or still stuck in this downward spiral. In a way, this is like the stock market - we won't know if this crash is done until the recovery is already under way. I'm keeping my powder dry at this point and hoping to catch this thing at the bottom or right as the recovery starts.

I don't know what else to do at this point. I have told her that her sister (my DW) and I don't trust her. We are not giving her any of our money until we know she is recovering. And that we think it is wrong for her to take a large chunk of her mom's life savings to feed her gambling habit. We also told MIL that she should not give away all her money like that. We told her "what will happen if you or FIL gets sick and you really need your money"?

The stress on SIL to pay these huge interest payments every month will either cause her to gamble more to try to pay them off, or realize these people aren't her friends and they are bleeding her and her family dry. That will be the litmus test, at least initially. I probably told her 10 times yesterday that "gambling is NEVER the solution to getting yourself out of debt" and that it isn't too late to hang it up and figure out a way to get yourself out of this mess. She knows that DW and I are very good with money, and I hope she listens to me and internalizes this message. But I remain skeptical. When I told her the $23k will take 4 years to repay at $500/mo, she was in disbelief and seemed to think it would be much easier to pay off.

 

[FUEGO]

That interest rate might be above state maximums.

Yes, probably so. It is also unenforceable (at law) gambling debt. I have suggested SIL renegotiate her debt w/ her creditors. Not an option per SIL.

 

[FUEGO]

If you do decide to 'lend' them money, do you self a favor, don't look for repayment. Consider it a gift. You can structure it as a loan if you want, but if you really treat it as a loan you will get very angry every time a payment is missed, and the probability is they will be missed. The stress of this will put even more stress on you and your wife. Even if you can 'let it go' the probability is your wife will not be able to let it go.

I have explained this to DW. We can structure it as a loan, but we may never see the money returned to us. So any amounts we give to SIL, think of it as a gift internally, and just hope you see some of that gift returned. I don't think we are ready to just give away $10,300 at this point. But DW told SIL over and over "if we give you money, that is the LAST time we ever help you. After that you are on your own.". This statement will be reiterated if we ever do decide to lend/give her the money.

 

[REWahoo]

When I told her the $23k will take 4 years to repay at $500/mo, she was in disbelief and seemed to think it would be much easier to pay off.

That's because she still sees the ability to win at gambling as an "easy" way to make money.

I wish you, your DW and your in-laws all the best but from reading this thread I'd say the odds are 99+% your SIL will end up in the abyss of personal and financial ruin. Keep working hard to be sure you aren't pulled even partially into it with her.