My reason for urgently needing a HELOC

[Nords]

You know, if you were somebody like Donald Trump, they would probably make a reality/game show out of that and you would be the star. It would be worth millions.
At least that's what I always tell myself when I have to deal with my in-laws.

"Family Feud"...

Well, someday Trump may have an ego as big as Richard Dawson.

 

[FUEGO]

The cookout itself went well. Mmmmm burgers and fireworks.

Regarding the business venture from BIL and SIL, I heard not a peep out of either one of them about the business venture itself, nor were any hints dropped re: looking for financing/capital/equity investors. So good news on that front at least as far as my money is concerned.

The gambling SIL: not good news. I talked to her husband briefly, and he said she is back gambling just like she always has. He said she's back to going to the gambling parties Saturday evenings after work, then not coming home until Monday morning around 6 am. SIL's husband seemed very down about all this. SIL's husband and I didn't really discuss much of the details of SILs gambling because we were quickly interrupted by an angry yelling belligerent SIL when she saw her husband and I having a private conversation in the kitchen. She knew what we were discussing.

By this point, SIL's husband (BIL) is fairly well intoxicated. He starts trying to throw away SIL's cell phone, because that is how people will call her to tell her where they are gambling and when. Mostly playful scuffling ensues. A little yelling. Then SIL goes outside.

Drunk BIL is very publicly and loudly lamenting 14 long years of marriage and how could it end up like this??

About an hour before dark, SIL starts hounding me to light off the fireworks. I gently informed her that it would be pointless to light the fireworks before dark since you would not be able to see them. She was in a hurry to get back to the card games I assume.

Nobody went to the hospital, so I'd call the cookout a success!

After the party, I told my DW some of what BIL told me re the continuing gambling. Her response is basically "we're done with that, there's nothing more we can do, we have made our position known, don't tell me any more about it because it just irritates me and saddens me". So it looks like my money is safe at least.

I assume SIL is either on a slight winning streak or she found some new suckers to lend her money since she was on the verge of broke many months ago.

 

[harley]

Really sad, but not unexpected. It's always too bad the person has to splash so much misery on their loved ones as they bounce along toward the bottom. My condolences to BIL.

 

[easysurfer]

I say success in two fronts. First, as you said, no one went to the hospital, so the cookout was a success. Second, it sounds like your DW is totally on the same page as you. Sad about your BIL and SIL, but it looks like they just have to hit rock bottom and just let the chips (no pun intended) fall where they fall.

 

[ERD50]

I have to agree with harley and easysurefer on this. Very sad.

At this point, if you feel you need to be involved at all, I would focus on helping the BIL, both materially (protecting his assets) and emotionally. I don't want to jump to any conclusions about his drinking, being a party and all, but it isn't hard to imagine someone in his position turning to something to ease the pain, and that could get out of hand and just compound the situation for him. Maybe focusing on positive actions will keep him involved enough to not be looking for an escape route (if that is even what is happening). Either way, positive actions will probably keep him from wallowing in the misery, which would certainly be expected.

so sad

- ERD50

 

[FUEGO]

I say success in two fronts. First, as you said, no one went to the hospital, so the cookout was a success. Second, it sounds like your DW is totally on the same page as you. Sad about your BIL and SIL, but it looks like they just have to hit rock bottom and just let the chips (no pun intended) fall where they fall.

We are focusing our efforts on worrying about things we can control, and trying not to worry about things we cannot control.

 

[FUEGO]

Update:

DW just got a call from her and SIL's mother regarding the SIL's gambling problems. DW's mother is stuck and can't figure out what to do about SIL's gambling problems. DW's father was yelling in the background the whole time DW and mother were on the phone. DW pretty much told her mother that their is nothing we (mother or us) can do at this point. SIL is doing this to herself and we cannot help her other than refusing to enable her.

I'm not sure if something specific prompted this phone call tonight or if it just general worry. I assume at the minimum this means that SIL was out gambling most of the weekend.

<FUEGO, slowly walking away from the situation >

 

[chris2008]

It is just so sad for the kids involved - they can conrol nothing of the mess they are in. But hopefully they will learn something from it.

 

[FUEGO]

Update:

Gambling SIL has officially been removed from being the one in charge of my parents in law's finances and bill paying. DW has taken that responsibility (which means I'll undoubtedly get sucked into it).

This week has been a particularly bitter week for my FIL. He has had enough of his daughter gambling and said she is not to ever touch his money or help with their bill-paying any more. MIL is still ambivalent about it all since she says "who will help us pay our bills?". DW explained that it isn't really that hard. SIL had been paying everything manually by check, with multiple checking accounts.

DW is going to consolidate checking accounts to our credit union to make transacting business easier. And simplify and streamline by doing online bill pay and/or automatic drafts for everything now. I went over some bills with DW last night and we have already found probably a few thousand dollars a year in likely wasteful spending on life insurance, liability insurance, etc.

I talked to gambling SIL's husband this morning and he is as distraught as ever. They are in debt up to their eyeballs. Just drowning. He knows the basics of consumer finance - ie all that credit card debt is just charging them interest every month and they pay hardly any principal. He knows all they are doing is paying all of their income and wealth to the banks in the form of interest. To which I helpfully added his DW was compounding the loss of money by continuing to gamble. And that she probably got into credit card debt because of recurring monthly short falls since all their income was going into the gambling.

His statement this morning said in jest: "I should just buy a one-way ticket back to Vietnam!"

 

[Westernskies]

Update:

Gambling SIL has officially been removed from being the one in charge of my parents in law's finances and bill paying. DW has taken that responsibility (which means I'll undoubtedly get sucked into it).

This week has been a particularly bitter week for my FIL. He has had enough of his daughter gambling and said she is not to ever touch his money or help with their bill-paying any more. MIL is still ambivalent about it all since she says "who will help us pay our bills?". DW explained that it isn't really that hard. SIL had been paying everything manually by check, with multiple checking accounts.

DW is going to consolidate checking accounts to our credit union to make transacting business easier. And simplify and streamline by doing online bill pay and/or automatic drafts for everything now. I went over some bills with DW last night and we have already found probably a few thousand dollars a year in likely wasteful spending on life insurance, liability insurance, etc.

I talked to gambling SIL's husband this morning and he is as distraught as ever. They are in debt up to their eyeballs. Just drowning. He knows the basics of consumer finance - ie all that credit card debt is just charging them interest every month and they pay hardly any principal. He knows all they are doing is paying all of their income and wealth to the banks in the form of interest. To which I helpfully added his DW was compounding the loss of money by continuing to gamble. And that she probably got into credit card debt because of recurring monthly short falls since all their income was going into the gambling.

His statement this morning said in jest: "I should just buy a one-way ticket back to Vietnam!"

[-]Past[/-] Time for BIL to take legal steps to protect his own finances, and do what he can for his kids. She is circling the drain; he needs to do what he can to make sure they don't all get sucked down with her. It's bad, and it's only going to get worse.

 

[Texas Proud]

[-]Past[/-] Time for BIL to take legal steps to protect his own finances, and do what he can for his kids. She is circling the drain; he needs to do what he can to make sure they don't all get sucked down with her. It's bad, and it's only going to get worse.

Heck, I would say she is deep in the drain and already past the trap... he is circling and maybe able to get out... but unless he buys that ticket... I think it probably is already to late for him...

 

[FUEGO]

Heck, I would say she is deep in the drain and already past the trap... he is circling and maybe able to get out... but unless he buys that ticket... I think it probably is already to late for him...

I imagine they are roughly at zero on a balance sheet basis. Maybe slightly positive by $10-30k or so. Only valuable assets are highly leveraged house, and two trucks/SUVs (both unencumbered IIRC). Lots of CC debt - I estimate $25000 minimum, could be more. Plus all the gambling debt and ~$15k debt to SIL's mother.

But that is before selling the house, losing 6% to a realtor, possibly losing more due to needing a quick sale, and maybe even more because they are in the middle of a major renovation/expansion on the house and as a result there are significant parts of the house that are torn up and a "work in progress".

If gambling expenses went to zero magically I think they would be cash flow neutral if they watched their expenses (which I think they have started to do for the most part).

I think the SIL's DH's plan is to file BK if it comes to that. He may leave the marriage, he may not. I have advised him at the least to keep his finances separate for now so he can run his small construction biz, buy materials and equipment, pay subs, etc. I don't want to step out there and suggest divorce or drastic actions because then I put myself in the position of ending a marriage. I trust my BIL will bail if it gets bad enough. I imagine the marital distribution would just consist of splitting up debt at this point for the most part.

Any other specific financial advice that would be helpful to BIL?

 

[Westernskies]

I imagine they are roughly at zero on a balance sheet basis. Maybe slightly positive by $10-30k or so. Only valuable assets are highly leveraged house, and two trucks/SUVs (both unencumbered IIRC). Lots of CC debt - I estimate $25000 minimum, could be more. Plus all the gambling debt and ~$15k debt to SIL's mother.

But that is before selling the house, losing 6% to a realtor, possibly losing more due to needing a quick sale, and maybe even more because they are in the middle of a major renovation/expansion on the house and as a result there are significant parts of the house that are torn up and a "work in progress".

If gambling expenses went to zero magically I think they would be cash flow neutral if they watched their expenses (which I think they have started to do for the most part).

I think the SIL's DH's plan is to file BK if it comes to that. He may leave the marriage, he may not. I have advised him at the least to keep his finances separate for now so he can run his small construction biz, buy materials and equipment, pay subs, etc. I don't want to step out there and suggest divorce or drastic actions because then I put myself in the position of ending a marriage. I trust my BIL will bail if it gets bad enough. I imagine the marital distribution would just consist of splitting up debt at this point for the most part.

Any other specific financial advice that would be helpful to BIL?

Legal separation to allow him to draw a line in the sand with their creditors?

 

[TromboneAl]

I'd say that BIL should immediately consult with a good divorce attorney who is especially knowledgeable concerning financial aspects of a separation. He's got to get a firewall in place between his finances and hers.

 

[tmm99]

I am actually very very surprised that your BIL is still married to her...

I knew this woman (I think she was in her late 30's at the time) years ago - she started gambling heavily. (She is Korean. This probably doesn't have anything to do nationalities but I mention her nationality because she had a fairly big circle of gambling friends of the same nationality - maybe it's a cultural thing or what; I don't know. Personally, within my circle of friends/acquaintances, I don't know of a single person who gambles except when they go to Las Vegas.) Once her husband (who is non-Korean) realized that she had started taking money out of their daughter's college fund, he started the divorce proceedings....

 

[FUEGO]

Gambling SIL's son just posted a facebook update that, roughly translated to non-teenager adult speak, means "I'm sitting here watching this Gambler yell a lot and be overbearing and pushy to everyone around her. I'm mad."

Poor kids indeed. Hopefully this will be a good life lesson for the son.

 

[haha]

This entire thread is a lesson in inaction and wishful thinking. Fuego, I think your idea that he should separate his finances as much as possible so he can protect his business is also wishful thinking. This is America, what's his is hers, and sometimes vice versa. At the very least he needs legal separation and likely divorce. Like AL says, he needs good divorce lawyer, and fast.

She is very unlikely to turn down whatever relationship he may want after that, but then he is safely a boyfriend rather than a husband.

 

[FUEGO]

I'm reluctant to tell my BIL "get divorced, it is the best thing to do". I don't want to be the guy that broke up this marriage later (when hindsight is 20/20). Even if immediate dissolution and financial separation of the marriage is what is best.

I am meeting with the BIL on an unrelated legal issue in a few minutes and hopefully getting that comparatively minor issue settled. Might be time to have a little "what if" conversation with him. See how he sees this whole thing playing out.

 

[Texas Proud]

I'm reluctant to tell my BIL "get divorced, it is the best thing to do". I don't want to be the guy that broke up this marriage later (when hindsight is 20/20). Even if immediate dissolution and financial separation of the marriage is what is best.

I am meeting with the BIL on an unrelated legal issue in a few minutes and hopefully getting that comparatively minor issue settled. Might be time to have a little "what if" conversation with him. See how he sees this whole thing playing out.

Uhhhh, how would you be breaking up the marriage... SHE IS... right now he seems like a deer caught in the headlights... your suggestion might be enough to wake him up to the black hole they are entering...

Sure, he says he knows what is going on.... and might even be telling the truth.... but his stress level has got to be very high... and he probably does not know what that is doing to his health... it could kill him...

 

[W2R]

Unless he already has lots of friends, he might also benefit from having a male friend in the family who knows about the problem, who is on his side in all this, and who will listen without being judgmental.

Just listening while he vents and thinks out loud would be a huge benefit for him. Well, assuming that gambling SIL would allow it.

 

[NW-Bound]

As I have seen before, the destructive behavior of some people is just totally amazing. All you can do is to stand back, keep a distance, and not let yourself become collateral damage.

I feel sorry for the SIL's husband and the kids. The sooner he divorces her, the better. I am sure he will get help from her family, meaning SIL's parents and her siblings, to raise the kids.

 

[Orchidflower]

I am actually very very surprised that your BIL is still married to her...

I knew this woman (I think she was in her late 30's at the time) years ago - she started gambling heavily. (She is Korean. This probably doesn't have anything to do nationalities but I mention her nationality because she had a fairly big circle of gambling friends of the same nationality - maybe it's a cultural thing or what; I don't know. Personally, within my circle of friends/acquaintances, I don't know of a single person who gambles except when they go to Las Vegas.) Once her husband (who is non-Korean) realized that she had started taking money out of their daughter's college fund, he started the divorce proceedings....

You, obviously, don't know any Greeks do you? They (well, the men only) even gamble for pennies and nickles after holiday dinners. I guess that's to fool their wives into believing they don't really gamble constantly with the family funds...which they do. In abundance. Trust me. My grandfather was even a professional gambler full-time and raised 5 kids on his earnings.

 

[FUEGO]

Unless he already has lots of friends, he might also benefit from having a male friend in the family who knows about the problem, who is on his side in all this, and who will listen without being judgmental.

Just listening while he vents and thinks out loud would be a huge benefit for him. Well, assuming that gambling SIL would allow it.

He was being sued in a business related matter and we successfully settled this afternoon so I invited him back to my house for a little celebration and debriefing. The gambling wife is a much bigger issue and stressor in his life than this lawsuit though.

W2R, what you described above, the listener, is basically the role I played today back at my house. And it is what I have done multiple times in the past for him. Just listened. Let him say what's on his mind and work through his thoughts.

After listening for quite a while, I offered him help with financial issues today (from a money management standpoint and a legal standpoint). Then suggested if he is interested in a divorce attorney I could get him a name. He's not ready to do that yet. We talked about finances a little and he doesn't really know how much debt the SIL has on credit cards. She has been using BIL's credit cards some too, and the balances are higher now. I think SIL takes care of the bills in his household, so he remains relatively uninformed. He has just taken all his credit cards back from her and keeps them away from her now.

BIL has been trying to sit down with his DW and get all the debts (CC, gambling, family debt to MIL, etc) all out in the open, write it all down and figure out what they have and what they owe. SIL has refused simply stating "You know how much debt we have". BIL clearly doesn't. At least not the full picture.

I asked BIL if he thought they would have anything left if they tried to pay off all their debts and he said no, probably not. He said he's at the point where even if he got out of the marriage now, there wouldn't really be anything to leave with besides debt. I guess he figures the worst case is eventually splitting up, filing bankruptcy and starting from scratch.

We also discussed the possibility that his DW may be manic depressive (he brought this concern up, though not using the clinical term "manic depressive"). He says it is definitely possible. She gets very excited Saturday when it is time to gamble and Monday when the gambling is over, she mopes around the house in a depressed state until Saturday. She's too stubborn to seek treatment, but at least I told BIL that all it may take is taking a pill to at least partially "fix" her.

I think BIL is informed as to his alternatives. He understands that he's probably going to end up with nothing financially regardless of whether he divorces now or later. He thinks his DW may hit bottom when she realizes there is no money to pay for the house, utilities, food etc and all the credit cards are maxed, and no one in her family trusts her (this latter event has already occurred). They aren't too far away it sounds like.

BIL did say that SIL is upset by losing the status as caretaker of her parents' finances. She now sees that her gambling and horrible financial management of her own money has caused other people to not trust her. But she still hasn't accepted that she is the one responsible for this.

 

[FUEGO]

All you can do is to stand back, keep a distance, and not let yourself become collateral damage.

I'm really focusing on this. Not interject myself into the situation any more than necessary. Listen more than talk.

 

[TromboneAl]

You're doing a great job, Fuego!