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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-29-2006, 02:31 PM   #41
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by astromeria
Maybe because I don't hate Bush--he's just an ordinary man (at best) ...
I don't hate him either. I kind of feel sorry for him. He is so obviously in way
over his head ...

I think he thinks he is doing what's best for the country. Unfortunately he comes
to it as a religious fanatic, and like all religious fanatics he is SURE that he is right
because he talks to God**, and therefore since he KNOWS he is right he can do
whatever is necessary to achieve his agenda, even if it involves illegal and immoral
activity.

Now, Cheney and Rumsfeld I hate. Powell I have contempt for, going along with
something he knew was wrong, because of loyalty to his Commander in Chief - what
about loyalty to the country he's sworn to serve, for God's sake ?

** What more proof do we require of this than his admission in Bob Woodward's
book that he never talked to his father about invading Iraq, because instead he
talks to a higher father ?!?


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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-29-2006, 05:29 PM   #42
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
This guy must remain un-named?

Ha
Nope. Just figured no one ever heard of him. His name is John R. Lott.
Among other things he wrote the bestseller 'More Guns, Less Crime'.
Anyway, brilliant guy (Mensa member). Check out
http://www.johnrlott.com

JG
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-29-2006, 09:07 PM   #43
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by astromeria
Maybe because I don't hate Bush--he's just an ordinary man (at best), a dreadful President, and positive proof of the Peter Principle.
Wrong on the Peter Principle! He is several levels above his level of incompetency!
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-29-2006, 09:09 PM   #44
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Re: New Obama thread

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Originally Posted by mb
Wrong on the Peter Principle! He is several levels above his level of incompetency!
His level of incompetency was fratboy.
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-29-2006, 09:21 PM   #45
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Re: New Obama thread

Let's see.......this was an Obama thread...... I'll try to pull it back a little.....

Given Dem victories in 2006 and 2008 (possibly an Obama victory in 2008), what should Dem key initiatives be goinjg forward? Without expressing those initiatives in terms of GWB, who will be long gone at that time, what are the top priorities for the Dems? Again, without expressing them in terms of GWB.
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-29-2006, 09:51 PM   #46
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
Let's see.......this was an Obama thread...... I'll try to pull it back a little.....

Given Dem victories in 2006 and 2008 (possibly an Obama victory in 2008), what should Dem key initiatives be goinjg forward? Without expressing those initiatives in terms of GWB, who will be long gone at that time, what are the top priorities for the Dems? Again, without expressing them in terms of GWB.
- Get out of Iraq.
- Fight a more focused and effective war against terrorism.
- Make modifications to tax/benefit structure to insure SS and Medicare continue long term.
- Improve voting procedures and make them more uniform across the country.
- Rebuild torn and broken relationship with allys.
- Medical system/medical insurance reform.

for a start.

The above probably require that many of the tax benefits granted during the "leave no billionaire behind" programs be repealed. Sorry, I couldn't let that one pass.
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-29-2006, 10:50 PM   #47
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
- Get out of Iraq.
- Fight a more focused and effective war against terrorism.
- Make modifications to tax/benefit structure to insure SS and Medicare continue long term.
- Improve voting procedures and make them more uniform across the country.
- Rebuild torn and broken relationship with allys.
- Medical system/medical insurance reform.

for a start.

The above probably require that many of the tax benefits granted during the "leave no billionaire behind" programs be repealed. Sorry, I couldn't let that one pass.
Pretty worthwhile looking list there sgeeeee. But, on the tax issue, when you say that the tax benefits granted during the "leave no billionaire behind" programs should be repealed, are you saying return the tax tables to where they were before or just change them to impact the really stinky rich, like billionaires?

When discussing raising taxes with folks, I've noticed that many want taxes raised for folks who make just a little more than they do, but, of course, not on themselves! (What a surprise! )
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 12:20 AM   #48
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Re: New Obama thread

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Originally Posted by youbet
. . . When discussing raising taxes with folks, I've noticed that many want taxes raised for folks who make just a little more than they do, but, of course, not on themselves! (What a surprise! )
How many people have you discussed raising taxes with who you also discussed personal income with?

This sounds like another made up fact to me.
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 04:45 AM   #49
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee

- Rebuild torn and broken relationship with allys.

Jeez, if "W" had a relationship with Kirstie, I wonder why the Dems
haven't used that in the campaign

JG
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 09:16 AM   #50
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
How many people have you discussed raising taxes with who you also discussed personal income with?

This sounds like another made up fact to me.
Hmmmmm.....don't know why you would say that sgeeeee. GWB's tax cuts are frequently discussed, at least in these parts, and "estimating" the income of a close friend or relative isn't exactly rocket science....... It's entertaining to listen to folk's opinions concerning the Bush tax cuts and their suggestions as to what new tax rates should be, especially when their suggestions inevitably seem to not include the suggester him/herself actually paying more, or very much more. Human nature I guess.

But, you're missing the question. You emphasized "billionaires" in your post. Do you think the tax tables should be changed only to have more impact on the stinky rich......the billionaire-types you mentioned? Or do we need something closer to home. Say, a tax structure that would significantly impact folks with AGI's in the $40K - $70K range.
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 09:57 AM   #51
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Re: New Obama thread

The only effective way to increase the tax on the rich without effecting the middle and lower income people is to allow so much income then tax everything above that. If it is strictly a percentage the rich, who most likely own a lot of something or have enough influence to be able to name their income, will simple increase the cost of goods to maintain their lifestyle. The end result is the tax increase is passed on to the lower income levels. :
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 10:09 AM   #52
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
Naw....... Hillary is not GWB. And "anybody but Bush" is the answer. Therefore Hillary is for you. Beside, for the moment, you almost live in New York.

Obama would take a lot of flack for his inexperience if running for Pres. But as VP....... hey, that's where he could get his experience. And with Bill back in the White House as First Gentleman, he'd be there as a mentor to guide him along. He could sit with him as he presides over the Senate whispering in his ear, etc. It'll be a snap for Bill and Obama could really learn all the ropes.
precisely what experience does Hilary have that Obama does not have? Other than her experience of supporting the $^%$^# war and her experience watching her husband play hide the sausage everywhere but where it belonged?
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 10:25 AM   #53
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Re: New Obama thread

I favor bringing back a couple of those high tax brackets to pay for the Bush deficit--they should've done it immediately upon going to war. The war and defiicit drag on, but they don't bring those brackets back, just cut a little here and there...things like diabled veteran benefits. Anything to support our wealthiest troops The next President (maybe even next year's Congress) will need to repair the damage.
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 10:41 AM   #54
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
Hmmmmm.....don't know why you would say that sgeeeee. GWB's tax cuts are frequently discussed, at least in these parts, and "estimating" the income of a close friend or relative isn't exactly rocket science....... It's entertaining to listen to folk's opinions concerning the Bush tax cuts and their suggestions as to what new tax rates should be, especially when their suggestions inevitably seem to not include the suggester him/herself actually paying more, or very much more. Human nature I guess.

But, you're missing the question. You emphasized "billionaires" in your post. Do you think the tax tables should be changed only to have more impact on the stinky rich......the billionaire-types you mentioned? Or do we need something closer to home. Say, a tax structure that would significantly impact folks with AGI's in the $40K - $70K range.
What a dishonest debater you are, youbet. You didn't answer the question. And the reason I asked it is to get an answer. Geeee. That seems pretty obvious. Instead, you make some broad statements about fictional folks with implications that they are numerous and representative enough for you to know about the country's tax ideas in general. Your view is cynical and full of implications about my own motives, but without any basis in fact as far as I can tell. Next, you accuse me of missing the question. Of course you didn't ask a question in your previous post that I was responding to. In fact, youbet, I've noticed that you are much more inclined to post passive-agressive accusations than to actually ask questions. I assume that is becuase you do not actually want to collect data and ideas from others.

Eventhough I doubt your sincerity, allow me to address the tax issue. I don't know what the ideal distribution of tax burden is in this country or any other. I suspect that it would change over time as the social and financial culture evolves. I do know that the gap between rich and poor has been widening at least since the Clinton administration and possibly earlier than that. I believe one of Clinton's failures is his failure to recognize the opportunity to tax a portion of windfall that the wealthiest people in America got under his administration and use it to encourage financial success among the poor and middle class. The GWB administration actually drove things even more in favor of the wealthy. They have passed tax changes that shift the percentage of tax burden even further away from the very wealthy. My original statement suggested rolling back the tax breaks provided under GWB. I would view any movement in that direction as a step in the right direction. Roll them all back and start from there. Roll back the breaks given to the top 1%, 2%, 10%, 25% . . . Any movement in that direction seems more reasonable than where we are now. One problem in trying to figure out what the optimum tax burden distribution should be is that we currently are taxing future generations rather than accepting to pay our own way. That needs to stop. The Bush administration sold large tax breaks to the wealthy by handing out small tax breaks to the middle class. But these breaks are fiction in the long run. Someone has to pay those bills. And the distribution of the burden has now been shifted more to the middle class and away from the wealthy. So, what we've seen in recent years is effectively a shift away from the wealthy of today and toward the middle class of tomorrow. That's what I would like to see changed.

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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 11:36 AM   #55
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
It's entertaining to listen to folk's opinions concerning the Bush tax cuts and their suggestions as to what new tax rates should be, especially when their suggestions inevitably seem to not include the suggester him/herself actually paying more, or very much more. Human nature I guess.
Interesting that I disagreed with the Bush cut from the day it was proposed as did most of the people I know, almost all of whom disproportionately benefited. It was clear from the get-go that the tax cuts would result in increasing deficits* making it much harder to deal with the impending social security and medicare crises. I don't need SS to thrive in retirement but I do need a flourishing economy. And that is less and less likely as the trillions in debt pile ever higher.

I would support rolling all of the Bush cuts back. DW and my income will be high enough that, if that was done, we would pay more taxes even in retirement. Would you? Or is the whole discussion academic for you?

* Both the CBO and the GAO agree that while cuts do potentially stimulate activities that generate more tax, those increases will - at best - produce no more than 7% of the cuts themselves. In other words, the cuts are a net 93% loss of Federal revenue.
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 11:54 AM   #56
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Re: New Obama thread

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Originally Posted by bosco
precisely what experience does Hilary have that Obama does not have? Other than her experience of supporting the $^%$^# war and her experience watching her husband play hide the sausage everywhere but where it belonged?
1. Hilary has already been tutored and mentored by Bill. Will Hilary as Pres, Obama as VP and Bill as First Gentleman, Bill would be available to tutor and mentor Obama prepping him for his future role as Pres.

2. Isn't the correct expression "hide the weenie" and not "hide the sausage?" Maybe not....... Perhaps it's just a regional variation. Getting it hidden properly is what counts, no matter what you call it I suppose.
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 12:33 PM   #57
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
I would support rolling all of the Bush cuts back. DW and my income will be high enough that, if that was done, we would pay more taxes even in retirement. Would you? Or is the whole discussion academic for you?
I generally agree with rolling the Bush tax cuts back too Don. And that will impact a lot of us middle to upper-middle class ER types, not just the "billionaires" frequently referred to. It won't be pleasant at tax time, but it will, unfortunately, be necessary if we're going to turn the tide on this deficit.

I appreciate the candor of your comments. Like you folks, DW and I will pay higher taxes if/when the Bush tax cuts are rolled back.

The fact that the "billionaires" and other stinky rich types will get hit harder than us is some consolation. But I'm still preparing to budget for higher taxes for us. And so be it.

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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 01:01 PM   #58
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Re: New Obama thread

Of course, one alternative would be to cut spending...


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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 01:45 PM   #59
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Re: New Obama thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
- Get out of Iraq.
- Fight a more focused and effective war against terrorism.
- Make modifications to tax/benefit structure to insure SS and Medicare continue long term.
- Improve voting procedures and make them more uniform across the country.
- Rebuild torn and broken relationship with allys.
- Medical system/medical insurance reform.
I think you have left out the most important one of all (with the possible exception
of medical system reform), mainly because it has such wide-reaching impacts:
pushing towards energy independence, mainly through conservation and alternative
technologies. Thomas Friedman says it better than I, but benefits of addressing
this issue include:

- Our whole mid-East policy (which has consumed much of our foreigh policy),
is based on this need for massive amounts of oil. "We are funding BOTH sides
of the war on terror".

- Starts to deal with the global warming issue.

- New technologies could provide an economic boost and a "moon shot" type
stimulus to our lagging educational performance in science and engineering.

- Makes our economy more robust, as it becomes less dependent on foreign
oil supplies.
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Re: New Obama thread
Old 10-30-2006, 01:49 PM   #60
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Re: New Obama thread

Oh, boy! A manage a trois taxes. I want to participate too, please .
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