Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-16-2010, 11:05 AM   #401
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire View Post
Much of the tourism in MS has been decimated not by BP, but by the national media. Our beaches are as clean as they have ever been. Our casinos are still open. Our tourism is not really based on the Gulf. We don't have a lot of good beaches. Yet people think we are closed, because the national media paints the entire coast region as covered in oil. Our beaches are very shallow. You have to walk out several hundred yards before the water is above your knees and the water is dirty, from all of the rivers, including the Mississippi river, dumping their sediment. Our shimpers are still shrimping. Even Obama looked at the beaches and said they were safe and tried our seafood and said it was safe, although I'm still puzzled about those.
That's like shooting someone and saying much of the death came from the bleeding rather than the bullet impact.

I know several people with vacation rentals along the coast, mostly in Florida. Visitors are canceling not because they are directly worried about oil. But they have alternatives (Atlantic coast, Carolinas, etc.) so why risk it? Many of these owners are now going to have trouble paying their mortgages within a few months. As far as I know none of these owners has gotten a dime from BP yet because BP is demanding nonexistent proof - you can't produce 5 years of tax records for a 2 year old condo.

I've obviously been critical of BP, and I don't doubt what you are saying. But if you are a tourist you have choices. It is entirely reasonable to avoid an area that MIGHT have problems just so you don't have to deal with it on vacation. The bottom line is, were it not for BP there would be no media frenzy. That makes losses resulting from the media frenzy part of the effects of the spill.
__________________

__________________
DoingHomework is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 06-16-2010, 11:12 AM   #402
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire View Post
From what I read there were a lot of recommendations, not requirements, so I agree on the judgement call.
Exercising poor judgment is negligence.
__________________

__________________
DoingHomework is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 11:17 AM   #403
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,078
Just saw a NYT report saying BP had agreed to put $20B in escrow to pay for damage claims...
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 11:33 AM   #404
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoingHomework View Post
That's like shooting someone and saying much of the death came from the bleeding rather than the bullet impact.

I know several people with vacation rentals along the coast, mostly in Florida. Visitors are canceling not because they are directly worried about oil. But they have alternatives (Atlantic coast, Carolinas, etc.) so why risk it? Many of these owners are now going to have trouble paying their mortgages within a few months. As far as I know none of these owners has gotten a dime from BP yet because BP is demanding nonexistent proof - you can't produce 5 years of tax records for a 2 year old condo.

I've obviously been critical of BP, and I don't doubt what you are saying. But if you are a tourist you have choices. It is entirely reasonable to avoid an area that MIGHT have problems just so you don't have to deal with it on vacation. The bottom line is, were it not for BP there would be no media frenzy. That makes losses resulting from the media frenzy part of the effects of the spill.
Your abstractions are getting absurd. People decide not to go to specific locations every year for a variety of reasons, for example hurricanes, floods, tornadoes, dead German tourists, etc. Now you want BP to compensate people in areas not affected by the spill for lost income due to media misrepresentation of the damage? If I follow your logic... because I chose not to go to the Gulf on vacation again this year (I have never been in the past, and probably never will) that decision is depriving someone, somewhere , in a Gulf location not affected by the spill- of a weeks condo rental, and that is now somehow BP's fault, right? As for several years of tax records, it's prudent on BP's part to determine if it is a legitimate claim for lost business- otherwise, I'll buy a POS condo on the beach tomorrow (sight unseen) and then bill BP for "lost income" (at 200-300%% of market rate) until the last drop of oil has been accounted for, because I couldn't get any rental income from it.

I don't think you will be happy until BP is completely bankrupt, 95,000 of their employees are out of work, their shareholders are wiped out, all the BP stations in the US are closed, and their execs are paraded naked through the streets in shackles and chains so the enraged citizenry can pelt them with rotten tomatoes? If this happens a lot of people with legitimate claims will not get what the deserve, there will be nothing left to pay them with.

I'd like to see BP start playing hardball; they cannot win in the court of public opinion anyway, and every politician out there running his mouth without a clue about what they are talking about is exacerbating their situation by exploiting thid disaster for their own political gain.
__________________
Westernskies is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 11:42 AM   #405
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
I'd like to see BP start playing hardball; they cannot win in the court of public opinion anyway, and every politician out there running his mouth without a clue about what they are talking about is exacerbating their situation by exploiting thid disaster for their own political gain.
You're suggesting BP adopt a "screw you guys, we're outta here" policy like this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton View Post
BP should hit back at U.S..
There's some pragmatic advice to Mr. Hayward in the balance of the article: well worth reading.
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 11:46 AM   #406
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoingHomework View Post
Exercising poor judgment is negligence.
No doubt about that, but the discussion was about criminal conduct. Just because someone is negligent does not mean they committed a crime.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 12:17 PM   #407
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
You're suggesting BP adopt a "screw you guys, we're outta here" policy like this?
Not at all. I believe they ARE responsible for paying legitimate, well- documented claims. Period. But kow-towing to every talking head politician or media clown with an agenda to discredit them with a sound bite on the evening news at every opportunity, NO. Paying for "lost revenue" in areas not touched by the spill? NO. Paying for lost revenue for people who cannot or will not provide legal proof of loss? NO If our Administration officials insist on trying them in the kangaroo court court of public opinion, they should close their cheekbooks, dig in their heels, and play by the letter of the law. You can't have it both ways.
__________________
Westernskies is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 12:36 PM   #408
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
If our Administration officials insist on trying them in the kangaroo court court of public opinion, they should close their cheekbooks, dig in their heels...
Too late to close their cheeks - they've already "assumed the position". BOHICA...
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 12:38 PM   #409
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoingHomework View Post
That's like shooting someone and saying much of the death came from the bleeding rather than the bullet impact.

I know several people with vacation rentals along the coast, mostly in Florida. Visitors are canceling not because they are directly worried about oil. But they have alternatives (Atlantic coast, Carolinas, etc.) so why risk it? Many of these owners are now going to have trouble paying their mortgages within a few months. As far as I know none of these owners has gotten a dime from BP yet because BP is demanding nonexistent proof - you can't produce 5 years of tax records for a 2 year old condo.

I've obviously been critical of BP, and I don't doubt what you are saying. But if you are a tourist you have choices. It is entirely reasonable to avoid an area that MIGHT have problems just so you don't have to deal with it on vacation. The bottom line is, were it not for BP there would be no media frenzy. That makes losses resulting from the media frenzy part of the effects of the spill.

Sooo.. the solution is to have those places that are making MORE money because of the oil spill to pay the people who make LESS...

Do you have direct knowledge that BP is requiring 5 years of tax records for a 2 year old condo? Or, it is just they have asked for your last 5 years of tax returns... and then they can see it is only two years old.

And should BP be responsible Let's say rentals in Key West are down this year... they can say 'well, it was that BP oil' and make a claim... but there is no BP oil. Our legal system is based on direct damage (well, who knows for sure.. just saying)... I will give you an example. They did street work in our downtown a few years back. They installed a light rail system. Well, it was difficult for people to get to some of the stores located on that road... but since there was not 'direct' cause for the people to stop coming (they still could get there, just had to walk some and be next to the construction) there were no damages. A lot went out of business. Is this 'fair'... nope. Was it legal... yep... However, I think BP probably will pay for some of these losses... but I also think that they should be able to 'prove' them. OHHH, another example... I am renting a condo on the beach in August... I can tell you there are a number of options.. some are booked all summer long... other are booked a few days here.. a few days there... lots of openings... so if I were going to pay them... I would want to know if they were the ones that were booked all the time or the ones who only had a few days booked in a season... this is not supposed to be a free lunch to people...

One last thing... someone who buys a condo to rent out and can not carry the note without rental income for a few months.. or even a year should not have bought it in the first place... there are things called hurricanes that can change people's mind also..

But then again... who am I to say what people should do with their own money...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:01 PM   #410
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
So, I'm sure the national media will be depositing a few billion into an escrow account to compensate the MS tourism industry for the loss of revenue due to their professional misconduct and gross negligence?

Unlike BP they owe no one any such "duty". Complaining about the media has been the staple of incompetent politicians and a variety of other deadbeats for 300 years.
__________________
Emeritus is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:07 PM   #411
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
And should BP be responsible . Our legal system is based on direct damage (well, who knows for sure.. just saying)... I will give you an example. They did street work in our downtown a few years back. They installed a light rail system. Well, it was difficult for people to get to some of the stores located on that road... but since there was not 'direct' cause for the people to stop coming (they still could get there, just had to walk some and be next to the construction) there were no damages. A lot went out of business. Is this 'fair'... nope. Was it legal... yep...
Actually this depends a great deal on the exact facts and which statute is involved and who built the rail line. . A well known case is Kinsman Transit.

I assure you that a store that goes out of business due to the release of oil (and yes due to is complex) has a claim whether or not they saw any oil
__________________
Emeritus is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:09 PM   #412
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
Not at all. I believe they ARE responsible for paying legitimate, well- documented claims. Period. But kow-towing to every talking head politician or media clown with an agenda to discredit them with a sound bite on the evening news at every opportunity, NO. Paying for "lost revenue" in areas not touched by the spill? NO. Paying for lost revenue for people who cannot or will not provide legal proof of loss? NO If our Administration officials insist on trying them in the kangaroo court court of public opinion, they should close their cheekbooks, dig in their heels, and play by the letter of the law. You can't have it both ways.
Right. And how do you think that plays with the courts that assess the penalties for the spill. Not compensation=penalties.

"I decided to dig in my heals judge 'casue these assholes wanted compensation just cause I spilled some oil in the next town. "

Try it.
\
__________________
Emeritus is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:49 PM   #413
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emeritus View Post
Unlike BP they owe no one any such "duty". Complaining about the media has been the staple of incompetent politicians and a variety of other deadbeats for 300 years.
No worries, this is already being blamed on Bush and Cheney..........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:58 PM   #414
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 886
Hadn't heard that but the blame can be shared by all the "GET THE GOVERNMENT OFF INDUSTRY BACK' types who gutted the regulatory system.

I've taught Technical safety regulation for 35 years and Date back to Nixon and Watergate.
Some things never change
__________________
Emeritus is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:02 PM   #415
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Sooo.. the solution is to have those places that are making MORE money because of the oil spill to pay the people who make LESS...

Do you have direct knowledge that BP is requiring 5 years of tax records for a 2 year old condo? Or, it is just they have asked for your last 5 years of tax returns... and then they can see it is only two years old.

And should BP be responsible Let's say rentals in Key West are down this year... they can say 'well, it was that BP oil' and make a claim... but there is no BP oil. Our legal system is based on direct damage (well, who knows for sure.. just saying)... I will give you an example. They did street work in our downtown a few years back. They installed a light rail system. Well, it was difficult for people to get to some of the stores located on that road... but since there was not 'direct' cause for the people to stop coming (they still could get there, just had to walk some and be next to the construction) there were no damages. A lot went out of business. Is this 'fair'... nope. Was it legal... yep... However, I think BP probably will pay for some of these losses... but I also think that they should be able to 'prove' them. OHHH, another example... I am renting a condo on the beach in August... I can tell you there are a number of options.. some are booked all summer long... other are booked a few days here.. a few days there... lots of openings... so if I were going to pay them... I would want to know if they were the ones that were booked all the time or the ones who only had a few days booked in a season... this is not supposed to be a free lunch to people...

One last thing... someone who buys a condo to rent out and can not carry the note without rental income for a few months.. or even a year should not have bought it in the first place... there are things called hurricanes that can change people's mind also..

But then again... who am I to say what people should do with their own money...
I agree, it's complicated. Some places will make more money. Shrimpers that help with the cleanup may...wait for it...cleanup. They might do better than they would shrimping. So someone does have to manage this. I just don't want it to be BP. If a careful economic analysis of the entire Gulf Coast economy shows a decrease in economic activity of $150B this year then that's what the BP payment should be (the appropriate agencies track this kind of thing and it can be calculated). The distribution of the hypothetical BP payment should be managed by a third party. That prevents BP from decreasing their costs by making it complicated to collect.

Frankly, I don't have much sympathy for vacation rentals that can't pay their bills over this. I agree people should be able to cover expenses for a long period. But it is not as simple as it sounds. They can get business interruption insurance for a very modest amount per year. But this kind of event is not contemplated or covered. Hurricanes are. Some of these people are ill-prepared. But some have nothing but assume that companies drilling in the Gulf would not poison it.
__________________
DoingHomework is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:10 PM   #416
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
I don't think you will be happy until BP is completely bankrupt...and their execs are paraded naked through the streets in shackles and chains so the enraged citizenry can pelt them with rotten tomatoes?
I think tarred and feathered would be more appropriate.

For the record, I don't want to put people out of work or hurt individual station owners. My guess though is that station owners are already suffering. Even without a boycott there are many people that will drive by the BP station and fill up at the Chevron I'm sure.

As for putting people out of work, I want to BP facilities to be taken over by another major oil company and regulated better. Putting BP out of business does not change the amount of oil that needs to be extracted, refined, and distributed. I just want it done by a responsible, ethical company.
__________________
DoingHomework is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:13 PM   #417
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emeritus View Post
I've taught Technical safety regulation for 35 years and Date back to Nixon and Watergate.
Some things never change
Maybe time for a change of curriculum?
__________________
Westernskies is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:14 PM   #418
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
No worries, this is already being blamed on Bush and Cheney..........
Of course. As soon as they crossed Haliburton it was all over. Ignoring the Haliburton engineers' recommendation to use 21 centralizers got DC involved. They say he personally flew down in one of his black helicopters and guided teh UFOs in to blow up the well.
__________________
DoingHomework is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:14 PM   #419
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoingHomework View Post
As for putting people out of work, I want to BP facilities to be taken over by another major oil company...
Hugo Chavez, is that you?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg chavezbp.jpg (36.8 KB, 0 views)
__________________
Westernskies is offline  
Old 06-16-2010, 02:15 PM   #420
Full time employment: Posting here.
ronocnikral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 852
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoingHomework View Post
As for putting people out of work, I want to BP facilities to be taken over by another major oil company and regulated better. Putting BP out of business does not change the amount of oil that needs to be extracted, refined, and distributed. I just want it done by a responsible, ethical company.
hugo chavez says the same thing...

what company would want to put their name on someone else's mess? it's loose-loose. if hayward had any marbles, he'd hit back and say screw it. one the first lessons of business - you give an inch, they take a foot.
__________________

__________________
ronocnikral is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Car repair experts: brakes - master cylinder leaking or just a spill? soupcxan Other topics 8 04-30-2010 11:58 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:58 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.