Reality and your concepts of self protection

[Honkie]

I have never owned a gun and never will. If my family's personal protection realistically depended upon me being armed, I would move.

Honkie

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I have never owned a gun and never will. If my family's personal protection realistically depended upon me being armed, I would move.

Honkie

Oh Honkie; I just think you need to be goosed a little.

JG

 

[Nords]

My husband has a shotgun and a handgun, but I won't touch them. I insisted  on a gun safe when we met, I grew up with all sorts of guns in the house, as my father, brother and grandfather were all hunters, so I'm comfortable with them around. I had plenty of opportunity to learn to shoot and never took anyone up on the offer. 

They do not make me feel safer against intruders. Around here my husband uses them to get rid of critters who intrude in our garden and pick fights with our dogs (porcupines!).

Spouse and I had an interesting discussion on this the other night. We're both qualified (no longer proficient) on a wide variety of military hardware, but we don't see a reason for owning them here. (No porcupines in Hawaii...)

The night after the Mt Pinatubo eruption I sent a stakebed truck into Olongapo to look for a dozen MIA crew. We were pulling guys off the streets and one was still trapped in a collapsed building (all survived). Subic Bay was one of the PI's less "lawful" places at that time and we had quite the spirited debate about arming the rescue party before we sent them out. However none of us really wanted to carry and the party willingly went out unarmed. We didn't want to behave as ugly Americans around "defenseless" foreign citizens, we didn't trust our paranoid sleep-deprived triggerhappy officers or sailors (despite all their training on the use of deadly force), and we wanted them to focus on rescuing their shipmates. In other words we wanted them to go looking for our crew but not for trouble, even if they had to turn tail and run back to the pier for reinforcements. There were plenty of options and enough time to escalate as necessary.

I, too, am the designated "noise in the middle of the night" homeowner but we've never owned personal firearms. Spouse grew up with a 9mm Beretta but her father sold it before moving to Hawaii. Good thing, too-- she says he used to keep it locked & loaded in his nightstand and he thought the kids didn't know about it. I'm glad our kid never visited Grandma & Grandpa at their ol' homestead.

Spouse & I still feel the same way. If the hurricane flattens our neighborhood then we'd willingly share with our neighbors. If looters visited in the middle of the night then we'd point them toward the pantry and run away fast. I'd like to think that the lack of weaponry would encourage us to hunker down, stay alert, and avoid danger instead of swaggering down the street at high noon. I can defend myself with a kitchen weapon or martial arts but the more important thing is that we know how to avoid confrontation in the first place. I'd much rather behave like a scared bunny rabbit and wait for civil order to return. Hopefully that works and you don't see me on CNN coming out the front door of Wal-Mart with a towel over my head and an M-16 in my arms.

That's another issue-- there's a substantial hassle factor to owning firearms in Hawaii. We can only legally own whatever has less firepower than the police and we're required to register. The police treat you in a totally different manner at a traffic stop after their firearms database pops up your name. Too many injuries & deaths around here are facilitated by firearms instead of avoided by them. I think that if we owned a weapon then we'd feel obligated to keep the family trained & proficient, and eventually the knowledge that we were packin' heat would be used against us.

Now I'm gonna have to ask our 12-year-old how many families on the street own firearms... the kids know that stuff.

 

[dory36]

I understand strongly principled objections to potentially lethal self defence. I can quote George Fox (founder of the "Quakers") and his colleagues all day long.

Those objections aside...

I have several fire extinguishers, even though we have a great fire department.

I have a spare tire, even though we have multiple options for dealing with on-the-road problems.

I had life vests on the boat, and a life raft, even though we had Sea-Tow, Tow-Boat-US, and the Coast Guard available.

I had a couple of spare radios on the boat, even though our primary radio had an extended warranty.

I carry fire insurance. etc etc etc.

So I guess I don't see much of a big deal about keeping protection against such things as home invasions -- that happen several times a month within 20 miles of here, even though locally we have been OK. etc etc etc.

 

[sgeeeee]

...
I have several fire extinguishers, even though we have a great fire department.

I have a spare tire, even though we have multiple options for dealing with on-the-road problems.

I had life vests on the boat, and a life raft, even though we had Sea-Tow, Tow-Boat-US, and the Coast Guard available.

I had a couple of spare radios on the boat, even though our primary radio had an extended warranty.

I carry fire insurance. etc etc etc.

So I guess I don't see much of a big deal about keeping protection against such things as home invasions -- that happen several times a month within 20 miles of here, even though locally we have been OK.  etc etc etc.

First, you are assuming that owning a gun is effective protection against home invasion. Most gun owners seem to envision themselves pulling out their weapon and downing the bad guy who is out to do them harm, but the facts and statistics don't seem to bear that vision out.

Second, there is the potential downside of ownership. I've never heard of a case when someone was injured by their own spare tire, life preserver, fire extinguisher, radio, or insurance policy.

And then there's the relative probability of these events. I've had to change dozens of flat tires. I've known people who have had house fires and put them out with their fire extinguisher. I've experienced radios going bad. I don't have much boat experience, but I know people who fell overboard. And I've had relatives lose their home to fires.

 

[Craig]

... the facts and statistics don't seem to bear that vision out.

With respect, the issue is more complicated, and if you really researched it, you'd find much of what you hear in the popular media is hokum.

But I have zero problem with people who choose to not own or use a firearm. OTOH, I consider those who insist on preventing others from owning and using them to be nearly as dangerous as violent criminals ... forcing others to be defenseless is effectively violence, IMHO.

 

[sgeeeee]

With respect, the issue is more complicated, and if you really researched it, you'd find much of what you hear in the popular media is hokum.

I have researched it -- in quite a bit of detail. I wouldn't depend on popular media any more than I would depend on the NRA.

 

[Craig]

We'll agree to disagree ... I have zero problem with you not owning a firearm, SG. Take care.

 

[LovesLife]

Just curious with this one. Anyone have alarm systems installed in their homes? I don't think this has been mentioned as an alternative for protection.

LL

 

[sgeeeee]

Just curious with this one.  Anyone have alarm systems installed in their homes?  I don't think this has been mentioned as an alternative for protection.

LL

I do -- sensors at all doors and windows, motion detectors in hallways. I also have a sheet metal screen door with a dead bolt in place of a storm door. I can answer my door and still have a relatively impenetrable barrier between me and whoever is knocking. Around here, the home invasion crimes usually take place when someone answers the door. The invaders then push their way in and disable the person who answered before they have a chance to respond. A simple chain on the door won't hold up to this kind of assault. People with double doors are really susceptible. Most of the double doors built around here are pretty flimsy and can easily be kicked in quickly. I haven't put decorative iron bars over the windows, but I think I would move if I got to the point where I felt that was needed.

And I have a big (dumb) dog. The police I have spoken with tell me a dog is the best single thing you can do for protection. Bubba the black lab earns his dog food.

 

[dory36]

Folks can do amazing things when aided by the miracle of chemistry. We were once the "host" of a drugged up woman who knocked at the door and then inserted her arm into the chained-up doorway, closed the door so tightly that I couldn't believe her arm wasn't shattered, and removed the chain from its holder so she could get in -- which she did.

She wasn't violent -- just in the wrong place but absolutely convinced I was her roommate's boyfriend trying to keep her out. Once she got in and saw it wasn't her apartment, she left.

So forget those chains!

The dog, on the other hand, is excellent. Heck, large dog poop deposits in strategic places are probably all you need to get a miscreant to decide to visit your neighbor instead of you. If in doubt, combine the dog poop with an NRA sticker in prominent view. (In Texas, we call this the "fire ant" solution. You can't stop it - you just divert it elsewhere.)

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I do -- sensors at all doors and windows, motion detectors in hallways.  I also have a sheet metal screen door with a dead bolt in place of a storm door.  I can answer my door and still have a relatively impenetrable barrier between me and whoever is knocking.  Around here, the home invasion crimes usually take place when someone answers the door.  The invaders then push their way in and disable the person who answered before they have a chance to respond.  A simple chain on the door won't hold up to this kind of assault.  People with double doors are really susceptible.  Most of the double doors built around here are pretty flimsy and can easily be kicked in quickly.  I haven't put decorative iron bars over the windows, but I think I would move if I got to the point where I felt that was needed.

And I have a big (dumb) dog.  The police I have spoken with tell me a dog is the best single thing you can do for protection.  Bubba the black lab earns his dog food.

We have Maggie, a black lab, about 85 lbs. Wouldn't harm anything
(unless she rolled over on your foot), but she has figured out that she can
intimidate just with her size and bluster. She has scared the hell out of
meter readers and several neighborhood dogs. I am not counting on her
in a real crisis though. She only gets really worked up for food or belly rubs.

JG

 

[HFWR]

She only gets really worked up for food or belly rubs.

Me, too... :

 

[haha]

I haven't put decorative iron bars over the windows, but I think I would move if I got to the point where I felt that was needed.

I've seen these bars on a lot of ground floor apts and condos in downtown Seattle.  Are you screwed if you have a fire? Or can they somehow be removed from inside?

Ha

 

[Alan]

I had an alarm system on our old house that scared the be-jeepers out of us some years back.  We woke up at 1am with the phone ringing and the alarm sounding.  It was the alarm monitoring company who said that a "zone 1" alarm had gone off - Front, back or side door, and should they call the police.  Leaving my wife in bed on the phone, I went down the stairs with pepper spray in hand shouting back progress.  At the foot of the stairs I could see the front door open to the extent of the chain and the cat trying to get in.

My son had collected and paid for pizza during the evening and not latched the door properly or locked it.  I noticed it was quite windy so that is what probably opened the door and the cat was investigating the alarm.

Despite the VERY LOUD alarm, telephone call, and me shouting up the stairs to my wife, neither of our teenage kids woke up , but at least the chain kept the cat out  8)

 

[unclemick]

Heh, heh, heh, heh

Now that the 'season' is over - the motel has emptied rooms on both sides of us - Golden Retriever - great wath dog - but NOT in a motel.

BTY - my 12 guage is probably in Lake Ponchartrain. My only other self protection is to not carry all my credit cards in the same wallet - split cards and cash among the three women.

Sometimes I wonder about THAT maneuver.

 

[sgeeeee]

I've seen these bars on a lot of ground floor apts and condos in downtown Seattle.  Are you screwed if you have a fire? Or can they somehow be removed from inside?

Ha

I've seen these bars with a latch and hinges that allow you to swing the bars out of the way. But you have to put a pad lock on the latch that could be dangerous in a fire. The sheet metal screen door has a dead bolt latch that you can turn with your hands, but that wouldn't work for ornamental iron work.

 

[Honkie]

Oh Honkie; I just think you need to be goosed a little.

JG

what?

 

[Nords]

what?

I don't have a 170 IQ but maybe I can interpret this subtle humor.

It's a joke, see-- honking geese? Goose you?

 

[mikew]

Growing up I was around guns a lot never thought anything of it. Now living in Japan where there are hardly any guns, I think they're a bad idea overall. It seems guns have a tendency to kill people and not always the right people. Also too many stupid people are attracted to them. Look at New Orleans, rescue workers needing to carry assualt rifles. In the asian tsumami, I didn't hear of any stories of anyone getting hurt, shot at, or anything.

I understand the reality in the US for individuals and the choice to have a gun. But I think they make the US more dangerous overall.

Our self protection is basically zero, we sleep with the front door unlocked.

Mike

 

[SteveR]

I've seen these bars with a latch and hinges that allow you to swing the bars out of the way.  But you have to put a pad lock on the latch that could be dangerous in a fire.  The sheet metal screen door has a dead bolt latch that you can turn with your hands, but that wouldn't work for ornamental iron work.

I used to live in Puerto Rico and we had bars on the windows and doors. The bars on the windows were actually imbedded in cement and could not be opened. The doors were enclosed in a "cage" with a door with bars that would be padlocked with a HUGE one to deter cutting it off. I had stuff stolen from the yard from time to time. I used to keep the kids bike tires flat when they were not using them to ward off theft by riding them off (worked several times as we found the bike a block away). Had my dog poisioned, my car broken into 4 times and almost stolen twice. My neighbor shot a guy who had broken into this house during the night. Nice way to live huh? :

 

[retire@40]

Nice way to live huh?

"Dying ain't much of a living" - Josey Wales