Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-01-2012, 07:18 AM   #181
Full time employment: Posting here.
My Dream's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 829
Ok, I'm back, talked it over with DW and I explained that the Volt is basically a Chevy Cruze except the interior is a bit different and it's electric. She said, "that's fine", except when I told her the price tag. She still not on board with the Canadian price tag starting at around $41,545k before tax credits. I tend to agree with her so I'm back on the fence.
__________________

__________________
Newbie
My Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-01-2012, 08:59 AM   #182
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Dream View Post
Ok, I'm back, talked it over with DW and I explained that the Volt is basically a Chevy Cruze except the interior is a bit different and it's electric. She said, "that's fine", except when I told her the price tag. She still not on board with the Canadian price tag starting at around $41,545k before tax credits. I tend to agree with her so I'm back on the fence.
You don't buy a Volt for the economic benefit, it makes a statement. If it's worth what it costs to you, that's it. But guess what, every car makes a statement, even an old beater. And most cars aren't bought for the economics either. If they were, we'll all buy the cheapest reliable car and keep it for 10-20 years. BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac, Lexus, etc. would cease to exist - those buyers don't care one whit about the economics.

The economics are worth knowing for buyers, but other people's views aren't. It's interesting how people challenge hybrid & EV buyers on the economics, but not nearly as common with luxury car buyers who pay even more for less efficient cars.
__________________

__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 09:14 AM   #183
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
You don't buy a Volt for the economic benefit, it makes a statement. If it's worth what it costs to you, that's it. But guess what, every car makes a statement, even an old beater. And most cars aren't bought for the economics either. If they were, we'll all buy the cheapest reliable car and keep it for 10-20 years. BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac, Lexus, etc. would cease to exist - those buyers don't care one whit about the economics.

The economics are worth knowing for buyers, but other people's views aren't. It's interesting how people challenge hybrid & EV buyers on the economics, but not nearly as common with luxury car buyers who pay even more for less efficient cars.

I think you are mixing apples and oranges in this example... people want to buy a class of car..... they want a top of the line luxury car, so they look at Mercedes, BMW, Lexus etc. and then compare the driving aspects etc. etc. and the price... Remember when Lexus first came out it was similar class level as a Mercedes but a LOT cheaper.. they cut into Mercedes sales... people do not compare a Mercedes with a Ford Focus...


So, the Volt fits in the mid-sized car category... along with Camry, Accord, Sonata, Impala, Malibu etc. etc.. so you compare the features with these other cars... and their prices... so there is an economic componet of the decision.... how much That is different for everybody....
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 09:20 AM   #184
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
You don't buy a Volt for the economic benefit, it makes a statement. ....
Agree with the entirety of what Texas Proud just posted.

As to just what 'statement' the Volt buyer is making, well that may be in the eye of the beholder. 'Look at this car I bought with Other People's Money'? might be one.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 09:30 AM   #185
Moderator
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Eee Bah Gum
Posts: 21,074
Congrats ER 2014 on your new car, and thanks for starting this thread and giving us feedback.

The town I live in is ideal for EVs and I see many hybrids and lots of Smartcars, but have yet to see any EVs. Just a matter of time I expect.
__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Now it's adventure before dementia
Alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 09:35 AM   #186
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
I think you are mixing apples and oranges in this example... people want to buy a class of car..... they want a top of the line luxury car, so they look at Mercedes, BMW, Lexus etc. and then compare the driving aspects etc. etc. and the price... Remember when Lexus first came out it was similar class level as a Mercedes but a LOT cheaper.. they cut into Mercedes sales... people do not compare a Mercedes with a Ford Focus...


So, the Volt fits in the mid-sized car category... along with Camry, Accord, Sonata, Impala, Malibu etc. etc.. so you compare the features with these other cars... and their prices... so there is an economic componet of the decision.... how much That is different for everybody....
There is indeed an economic component, but that's not all it comes down to. So it's curious that hybrid & EV buyers are challenged on the economics, as if that should be the deciding factor. I'd like to think hybrid & EV buyers are aware of the payback period, I don't think 2MM Prius buyers were all duped.

My point on Volt vs luxury cars was not that they are comparable. It was why are hybrid & EV buyers challenged on the economics, when luxury care buyers usually aren't? It's not just economics with any car, as you noted.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:00 AM   #187
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
There is indeed an economic component, but that's not all it comes down to. So it's curious that hybrid & EV buyers are challenged on the economics, as if that should be the deciding factor. I'd like to think hybrid & EV buyers are aware of the payback period, I don't think 2MM Prius buyers were all duped.

My point on Volt vs luxury cars was not that they are comparable. It was why are hybrid & EV buyers challenged on the economics, when luxury care buyers usually aren't? It's not just economics with any car, as you noted.
I still think you are off on the 'luxury care buyers usually aren't challenged on the economics'.

They are not challenged because it is clear that they want to pay for that luxury (with their own money, I will add). Personal choice, they get what they pay for whether we agree with the choice or not.

It's reasonable to assume that a hybrid buyer is buying for the economics, maybe for environmental concerns. So it makes sense to challenge if those hold water.

For an EV or plug-in, some are buying for the technology (let's call them hobbyists). That's fine (but I don't think it is right to use OPM for a hobby decision). Beyond that, the car should meet some economic and/or environmental goalpost, and those seem very questionable now.


edit/add: I think another reason for the 'challenge' is, the cars must meet those challenges if they are going to see wide-spread adoption. And if they can't, why the push/excitement?

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:16 AM   #188
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
It's reasonable to assume that a hybrid buyer is buying for the economics, maybe for environmental concerns. So it makes sense to challenge if those hold water.
We disagree on most counts (except the subsidy, we agree there), that's allowed. I think it's presumptious for you to assume hybrid buyers are buying primarily for the economics when the payback has been 5-10 years. Those 2MM buyers just didn't know what they were doing then? All cars make a statement, hybrids & EV's make several statements other than fuel cost savings (emissions, leading edge, geeky, quirky, different, green/eco-chic, foreign made) just like any other car.

Disclosure: We've had Camry hybrid for 5 years. We knew the breakeven would be years away (we didn't need anyone to tell us), but that wasn't the reason we wanted a hybrid anyway.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:22 AM   #189
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
There is indeed an economic component, but that's not all it comes down to. So it's curious that hybrid & EV buyers are challenged on the economics, as if that should be the deciding factor. I'd like to think hybrid & EV buyers are aware of the payback period, I don't think 2MM Prius buyers were all duped.

My point on Volt vs luxury cars was not that they are comparable. It was why are hybrid & EV buyers challenged on the economics, when luxury care buyers usually aren't? It's not just economics with any car, as you noted.
The Prius and Volt are a bit different than a lot of the other hybrid/EV cars... most are based on an actual vehicle you can buy with an IC engine... so there IS an economic decision in those...

So, you have decided to buy car Y.... and car Y can be bought with a 4 cyl with few bells and whistles for say $20K... You get good gas mileage... Or, you can buy it upscale with bells and whistles for $25K.. still with the same gas mileage... Now, they give you a hybrid option, but not quite all the bells and whistles as in the upscale car, but now it cost $28K...

I point out that spending that extra $3K is where the economic decision comes into play.... or should come into play... All the other decision before were on brand, class etc. etc.... but that ONE decision on which engine option you want to go with after making all the other options IS the economic decision....

That is why the Prius and Volt are a bit different.... you actually have to make the decision to buy that car and the engine option is made... so the economic decision is merged in with all the other emotional decisions...

Also, it goes the other way.... remember back when you had the option of buying that BIGGER engine for a price and got less fuel mileage... you would think about how much the engine costs along with the fuel for the benefit of being able to go faster...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:25 AM   #190
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
We disagree, that's allowed. I think it's presumptious for you to assume hybrid buyers are buying primarily for the economics when the payback has been 5-10 years. Those 2MM buyers just didn't know what they were doing then? All cars make a statement, hybrids & EV's make several statements other than fuel cost savings (emissions, leading edge, geeky, quirky, different, green/eco-chic, foreign made) just like any other car.

Disclosure: We have an 07 Camry hybrid. We knew the breakeven would be years away (we didn't need anyone to tell us), but that wasn't the reason we wanted a hybrid anyway.
Are we disagreeing? I don't think I made the conclusion you seem to think I did, I said they could be challenged.

So yes, the economics of a hybrid should be challenged. Now, if you did the math and found there is a payback for you, that makes perfect sense. I'm not disagreeing with anything like that.

As far as any other 'intangible' reasons, fine, then express what those are. No one has to agree, those are personal choices. I won't pay extra for leather seats, some will. But again, if EVs or plug-in hybrids are going to see wide adoption, I think they need to meet those challenges. Why not discuss them?

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:27 AM   #191
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
We disagree on most counts (except the subsidy, we agree there), that's allowed. I think it's presumptious for you to assume hybrid buyers are buying primarily for the economics when the payback has been 5-10 years. Those 2MM buyers just didn't know what they were doing then? All cars make a statement, hybrids & EV's make several statements other than fuel cost savings (emissions, leading edge, geeky, quirky, different, green/eco-chic, foreign made) just like any other car.

Disclosure: We've had Camry hybrid for 5 years. We knew the breakeven would be years away (we didn't need anyone to tell us), but that wasn't the reason we wanted a hybrid anyway.
We crossed posted on this... so I will add to my previous post...

Your disclosure on your Camry indicates that even you made an economic decision on your hybrid.. you said "We knew the breakeven would be years away"... but you decided to buy anyhow... you made the economic decision to go ahead and buy one... good for you... but you did not make that decision without knowing the information...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:27 AM   #192
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
I point out that spending that extra $3K is where the economic decision comes into play.... or should come into play... All the other decision before were on brand, class etc. etc.... but that ONE decision on which engine option you want to go with after making all the other options IS the economic decision....
Unless you choose to spend the $3K for "reduced emissions, leading edge technology, geeky, quirky, different and/or green/eco-chic." They may not appeal to you (and that's just fine), but they do to millions of others...

Hybrid & EV buyers aren't obliged to base their choices on what you've decided "should come into play" - cost/fuel savings alone.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:31 AM   #193
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Unless you choose to spend the $3K for "reduced emissions, leading edge technology, geeky and/or quirky, different, green/eco-chic." They may not appeal to you, but they do to millions of others...

I guess you do not see what I am saying... All those things you quoted are economic decisions... someone chose to spend $3K for whatever reason, but that was an economic decision.... they felt they were getting value for that money....
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:32 AM   #194
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 2,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by W2R View Post
Congratulations on your new Volt! I'm glad you found a car that you really like a lot. It wouldn't be my choice, but to me that is one of the great aspects of living in this country - - we can each choose what makes us happiest and seems like the best deal to us according to what we value.

I have heard rumors that gas will be going up to $5/gallon before too long. Either way, sounds like it won't affect you much.
The comment has been made that up to now the warm winter and the low price of natural gas has shielded folks from the impact, by reducing heating and electric bills. For example electricity in Houston runs from about 7 to 14 cents per kwh depending upon the vendor, while out in the hill country the rate just came down to 8.6. In Tx in particular this will help in the summer if it does not get to hot.
__________________
meierlde is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:32 AM   #195
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Unless you choose to spend the $3K for "reduced emissions, ...
I expect that for 'regular' hybrids, the reduced emissions is probably a pretty clear advantage. They are absorbing and then using power that would have been wasted in braking (and wearing brakes). I'm not sure if the extra battery/motor/components are a significant cradle-to-grave offset to that or not, but it must account for something.

But the environmental issue does get much more questionable for EVs and plug-ins, which are largely coal burning machines.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:43 AM   #196
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
I guess you do not see what I am saying... All those things you quoted are economic decisions... someone chose to spend $3K for whatever reason, but that was an economic decision.... they felt they were getting value for that money....
When people challenge buyers of hybrids or EV's, most often the angle is 'you won't save enough on fuel to justify the higher initial vehicle cost.' You can see that earlier in this thread, or all over car forums for the last 10 years where hybrid & EV's have been debated. So that's what I meant by economic decisions...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:54 AM   #197
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
But the environmental issue does get much more questionable for EVs and plug-ins, which are largely coal burning machines.
Yes, let's confuse the issue and re-fight that battle again, it's only been a week since your post #154 Gas $4 this summer.

I have a headache now, but that's my own fault...
Attached Images
File Type: gif powertrain-emissions-mckinsey.gif (40.7 KB, 3 views)
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:55 AM   #198
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
... But guess what, every car makes a statement, even an old beater. ...
For a long time we had an embarrassingly (to our kids, who refused to even ride in it, let alone drive it) old little fugly Ford that we bought for a song and kept forever. I said to a friend that "you know you don't care what people think when you drive this car," and he said, "your car is just like my old Saab, and I don't care what people think when I drive it either."

Umm, no, and cool little old Saab is not fugly little old Ford.

There definitely is a statement being made.
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 10:59 AM   #199
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
easysurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Dream View Post
Ok, I'm back, talked it over with DW and I explained that the Volt is basically a Chevy Cruze except the interior is a bit different and it's electric. She said, "that's fine", except when I told her the price tag. She still not on board with the Canadian price tag starting at around $41,545k before tax credits. I tend to agree with her so I'm back on the fence.
I know someone who has a Chevy Cruze and she loves it.

Yet, I get what you say about you favoring the EV part of a Volt. I've been eyeing a Honda Fit but have been waiting and waiting for Honda to sell their Fit Hybrid in North America as I'd just prefer a hybrid over a regular. I think in the end Honda made a big boo-boo by having the Fit Hybrid only in Japan. As now, I'm eyeing the Prius C Hybrid instead.
__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
easysurfer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2012, 11:07 AM   #200
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by easysurfer View Post
I've been eyeing a Honda Fit but have been waiting and waiting for Honda to sell their Fit Hybrid in North America as I'd just prefer a hybrid over a regular. I think in the end Honda made a big boo-boo by having the Fit Hybrid only in Japan.
I've wanted to see a Fit Hybrid too. I can only assume Honda is afraid a Fit Hybrid would cannibalize their (already anemic) Insight sales. Honda hasn't been very successful with hybrids for example the Accord Hybrid and the CRZ, and their other hybrids have been trounced by Toyota as well so far.
__________________

__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:37 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.