Sully retires

[FinanceDude]

Not familiar with the details - did he put himself in further risk to protect others, or did he do what he needed to save himself?

It was in 1989. In mid-flight, the jet lost ALL hydraulic power, no hydraulics, nothing. No one knows how he landed the plane, because although it is built into flight simulation programs, there is a 100% failure rate of pilots trying to land a plane in that condition........

I think about 150 people lost their lives, because the plane split upon landing..........however, 100 more survived.

I guess I don't get your definition of a "hero"...why do you have to die to be a hero? A firefighter saving a child from a burning building is a hero like the "let's roll" folks were heroes.........

"Self-sacrifice" is not necessary to be a hero in my book. Audie Murphy, the most decorated soldier ever, was a hero, but he didn't die in war...........

 

[TromboneAl]

So, again.. who would you rather hear about? Who is worthy of media attention, in your opinion?

All of them are worth hearing about for a while, just not the protracted hero worship coverage that goes on and on. I'm not sure that I understand the question, there's plenty of news that's interesting that doesn't involve hero worship.

 

[Westernskies]

All of them are worth hearing about for a while, just not the protracted hero worship coverage that goes on and on. I'm not sure that I understand the question, there's plenty of news that's interesting that doesn't involve hero worship.

Agreed!

Who would you suggest as anti-heroes?

 

[ERD50]

Nothing directed at you specifically, but if I follow your logic, the only true hero is a dead hero? Since factoring in saving him or herself at the same time would negate any hero status-safe to assume that the firefighter in your example would also try to do this?

It was in 1989. In mid-flight, the jet lost ALL hydraulic power, no hydraulics, nothing. No one knows how he landed the plane, because although it is built into flight simulation programs, there is a 100% failure rate of pilots trying to land a plane in that condition........

I think about 150 people lost their lives, because the plane split upon landing..........however, 100 more survived.

I guess I don't get your definition of a "hero"...why do you have to die to be a hero? A firefighter saving a child from a burning building is a hero like the "let's roll" folks were heroes.........

"Self-sacrifice" is not necessary to be a hero in my book. Audie Murphy, the most decorated soldier ever, was a hero, but he didn't die in war...........

I'm not sure how what I said got interpreted that I thought someone had to die to be a hero I'm not saying that at all. In fact, I said:

IIRC, the guy that snuck her (Jessica Lynch) out of the hospital was putting himself in great danger - and he did that to save her. To me, that is heroic.

That guy didn't die, but he went out of his way and risked his own life to help her escape (if I'm remembering the story correctly).


I'm saying there is a difference to me in a totally self-less hero and a calling someone a hero 'just' because they do some incredible feat. Call them both heroes if you want (and that does seem to match the dictionary definition), but to me, one is a higher level of hero than the other.

The difference is, one person puts themselves in danger to save others (totally self-less), in the other case, one is already in the danger with others, so he/she saves him/herself along with everyone else. They are both good things, but I have additional respect for the person who is self-less on top of everything else.

So the pilot with the hydraulics problem performed admirably under pressure, and managed to save some lives. That's great, he performed heroically to save those lives. To me, a 'higher level' of heroism would be another pilot who heard the mayday call, flies alongside, jumps from one plane to the other (I've been watching too much TV?), and assists the pilot to land the plane. That guy could have sat idly by and thought " I can't do anything, wish them well", but he put his life into risk to save others.

Isn't that a big difference? Doesn't the person putting their life at risk (whether they die or not - and hopefully not) deserve a bit more air time than the other?

Maybe I communicated poorly, as I'm surprised this seems controversial at all?


-ERD50

 

[Westernskies]

ERD50 , I think people just have diffferent ideas about what constitutes a hero- Maybe it's because the current media definition of hero includes drug-addled wife beaters, sports dopers, philanderers, convicted felons and con artists, bankrupt wheeler-dealers, murderers, liars, and tax cheats; but excludes someone who spent 6 years in a POW camp, for example.

There is a fascination with celebrity in this country that has become a real problem, IMO- for the celebrities who cannot function in society because of the paparazzi, the stalkers, and the hangers-on, who are being held up by the media as role models for young kids to aspire to. Who really cares what Brittany had for breakfast? Or what brand of shoes Michael Vick was wearing when he was arrested?

In the media mindset, it is a short jump from celebrity to hero- whether warranted or not.
rant over...

 

[freebird5825]

Land a plane in the river and we'll all hear all about you!

Make that a very NARROW river with a really TALL steel bridge (George Washington Bridge) in your path if you can't maintain enough altitude. Not to mention the river traffic including oil tankers and cargo ships headed to and leaving the Port of NY.
I know that area very well from childhood and am still amazed he pulled it off.

I'm mass media deprived by choice so I didn't get saturated with all the hoopla.

 

[clifp]

I know this is semantics but... I think Sully was a hero but he didn't necessarily perform a heroic act in "simply" landing the plane. His live was endangered and he acted with remarkable calm (listening to him talk to ATC) and incrediable skill in saving everyone's life.

On the other hand, after landing the plane he assisted passengers and he was the last person out of the sinking plane, so its pretty hard to say he wasn't putting his live on the line to save others. BTW, any pilots know are planes like boats is the pilot like the captain suppose to be the last one off?

 

[REWahoo]

BTW, any pilots know are planes like boats is the pilot like the captain suppose to be the last one off?

Riding in the pointy end, the pilots are usually the first to go.

Kidding aside, there is no similar "last to leave the ship" tradition in air travel. However, I suspect most pilots sitting in that left front seat feel a similar obligation.

 

[ERD50]

On the other hand, after landing the plane he assisted passengers and he was the last person out of the sinking plane, so its pretty hard to say he wasn't putting his live on the line to save others.

Yes, that's an example of the kind of thing that adds to the 'heroics', by my definition.

-ERD50

 

[Rustward]

It was in 1989. In mid-flight, the jet lost ALL hydraulic power, no hydraulics, nothing. No one knows how he landed the plane, because although it is built into flight simulation programs, there is a 100% failure rate of pilots trying to land a plane in that condition........

I think about 150 people lost their lives, because the plane split upon landing..........however, 100 more survived.

I guess I don't get your definition of a "hero"...why do you have to die to be a hero? A firefighter saving a child from a burning building is a hero like the "let's roll" folks were heroes.........

"Self-sacrifice" is not necessary to be a hero in my book. Audie Murphy, the most decorated soldier ever, was a hero, but he didn't die in war...........

WikiPedia has a nice article on United 232, if you trust Wikipedia.
United Airlines Flight 232 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It might have helped to have a DC-10 instructor ferrying in the jump seat or first class offer assistance. Lots of skill and perhaps a little good luck.

Sully seemed to get so much attention because events like these usually do not turn out well, but his was unusual. Again, skill, preparation, experience, practice, and maybe some luck.
Hero? Not exactly. Deserving recognition? Absolutely.
But, maybe we have heard enough.

 

[Nords]

His live was endangered and he acted with remarkable calm (listening to him talk to ATC) and incrediable skill in saving everyone's life.

After about a thousand hours in the trainer, when it finally happens in real life then your body's autopilot just takes over and gets the job done. You're too focused on the task at hand to be listening to your inner psyche running around in little circles screaming hysterically.

You don't start shaking or having those "My God, we could've all been killed" thoughts until you get away from the crowds and have a few minutes to yourself in a quiet room. Which is probably about the time ol' Sully arrived at a retirement decision...

 

[check6]

After about a thousand hours in the trainer, when it finally happens in real life then your body's autopilot just takes over and gets the job done. You're too focused on the task at hand to be listening to your inner psyche running around in little circles screaming hysterically.

You don't start shaking or having those "My God, we could've all been killed" thoughts until you get away from the crowds and have a few minutes to yourself in a quiet room. Which is probably about the time ol' Sully arrived at a retirement decision...

With his 40% pay cut, loss of pension, airline BK, senority list integration complications between America West and US Air pilots, the drudgery of commuting between CA and SC, I am sure retirement was on Sully's mind long before the accident. The accident/book deal sped up the process.

Since he retired at 59 vs 65 we could make him an honorary member of this forum.

 

[kcowan]

I think he was considered heroic because he glided to safety based on his glider pilot experience and not his airline training. The people on his flight were damned lucky he had been a glider pilot.

I consider him to be a hero. I also think he is quiting early to capitalize on another opportunity. I don't consider this early retirement. It is a career change to become a free-lance speaker and writer.

Sure beat the hell out of being a pilot.

 

[Rustic23]

While his glider experience may have helped, every pilot knows the speed his craft stalls at, and what is lift over drag max is. I am in the camp he was saving his a$$ first, and if he wasn't then I don't want him in the cockpit. When someone is doing what they have been trained to do, I have a hard time hanging the 'Hero' title on them. When a stranger jumps in front of a train attempting to save someone, or drops on a live grenade, they are not trained to do that. I am also in the camp they don't think of the consequences either, they just do it.

 

[Lazarus]

I don't think whether you are trained to do something or not has anything to do with whether you are a hero or not.

I think its more if you have to do it or not.

If you are the pilot and the engines quit you will be landing. Plane full of people or just you, its the same. You have no choice.

Sully did a great job. Perfect emergency landing in water all engines out. Never been done before.

But he is not a Hero. I do admire his skill.

 

[kcowan]

When I was a kid, we were leaning on the edge of a cement well that a neighbour sinking into the sand. The section suddenly dropped and I grabbed their young daughter and rolled away from the well. She was most assuredly dropping head first into the well.

They thought I was a hero. I was acting on instinct. Instincts are really powerful in times of emergency. Training just improves the emergency performance (like glider training).

 

[check6]

. Training just improves the emergency performance (like glider training).

Those of us who are in the business are extremely proud of Sully and his crew and the crediblity he brings to pilot group as a whole.

Lets not get too wrapped up in the glider thing. Every pilot strives to be as fuel efficient as possible by making idle power descents from cruise altitude to final approach (energy management), effectively becoming a glider on every flight. I have considerable amount of time in the plane he put it the drink and it glides just fine. I also have time in plane involved in the United Souix City accident and am still amazed they were able to come close to any airport let alone land on one and have survivors. None of the flight controls were operable.

Where Sully excelled was making a decision, runway? or the water?, (all within 2 nanoseconds) and sticking with it.

 

[REWahoo]

... plane involved in the United Souix City accident and am still amazed they were able to come close to any airport let alone land on one and have survivors. None of the flight controls were operable.

Where Sully excelled was making a decision, runway? or the water?, (all within 2 nanoseconds) and sticking with it.

What he said x2.

 

[check6]

"This Thread is USELESS without pics........."


Here is a very good simulation of Sully's flight:

YouTube - Flight 1549 3D Reconstruction, Hudson River Ditching Jan 15, 2009

 

[vicente solano]

I suspect that what T-Al is questioning is all the 'hero' talk. Was Sully really a 'hero'? I don't know all the details, but I question it. To me, a hero is someone who puts themselves (or anything they value) at risk for the benefit of others without regard for their own safety or well being.

Sully was also saving himself when he landed the plane. Would he had done anything differently if he was the only one on board?

Another thing that may have been discussed but I have not heard, is whether he did anything that the average pilot would not have done. I understand that an unconventional landing like this is much more difficulty than a standard one, but that is part of their training. If he did show extraordinary skill (and he may have), then that is a testament to his skill, but I don't think that alone makes him a hero.

Or turn it around - what if something about the timing of that landing made it even more difficult, and all the passengers died? Would Sully then be 'evil'?

I think the news media decided that 'hero' would sell well, and they ran with it. But he does come across as a really nice guy on TV, and I'd bet that he really is.

-ERD50

I was just thinking along those same lines just now as I started reading the thread.

 

[deserat]

Ahh - the connotation versus denotation of the word hero and what I call the 'numbing' down of our language due to the 24 hour news cycle, media exaggeration, and excitement addled minds requiring 'over-the top' adjectives to describe their lives. When so many actions done by people are called heroic, when in fact they may not be and the word is being used exaggeratively, then the word becomes useless in the extreme connotative sense. We then struggle to find another word to express what we really mean - hence the discussion in this thread. It's sad as there are truly some good words that have lost their ability to influence due to the mis-application of them to more routine instances.

 

[ERD50]

deserat, that was my claim also, but when I look at the dictionary definitions, there is very little regarding self-sacrifice. So maybe our own (me included) personal definitions are a bit off from historic usage?

Etymology

Via Latin hērōs (“‘hero’”) from Ancient Greek ἥρως (hērōs), “‘demi-god, hero’”) from Proto-Indo-European *ser- (“‘to watch over, protect’”)[1][2]. Related to Latin servo (“‘protect’”).


1. A real or mythical person of great bravery who carries out extraordinary deeds.
2. A role model.
3. The main protagonist in a work of fiction.
4. A champion.
5. An unwilling sufferer of an act of terrorism, terminal disease, or other tragedy.
6. A large sandwich made from meats and cheeses; a hero sandwich
7. Someone who possesses supernatural powers (in fiction) such as Spiderman.

Certainly Sully "watched over and protected", but all competent pilots are doing that, regardless of whether an exciting incident occurs or not. Is a crossing guard a 'hero' even if nothing exciting ever happens? In some ways, yes - but they won't get much media attention.

But I don't see any 'self sacrifice' or 'disregard for their own safety' in those definitions/derivation. Maybe another word is better for what we are talking about?

-ERD50

 

[Westernskies]

I think we are trying to pick the fly sh*t out of the pepper.

So, once again... If Mr. Sullenberger isn't a hero, who is? And why aren't we hearing about them in the media?

 

[deserat]

How about he is/was and excellent and most competent pilot? Although the dictionary doesn't say that a hero denotatively risks their own life, we may add that extra bit to our understanding of the definition. As for flysh*t, well, I wouldn't know about that......I do agree there are probably some true heroes we should here about in the media...or how about true news? and not just someone's opinion about the news?

Over here in Germany on AFN, we do hear about 'true heroes' - ones who risk life and limb to save others under very stressful circumstances - many of them don't survive. I'm fairly insulated against the media onslaught in the US - and notice when I do travel back to the US and turn on the TV or radio - yegads!

 

[Rustic23]

Was his co-pilot a hero? I doubt he just set there and watched! Most likely called things like air speed, altitude, and maned the radios and coordinated with the rest of the crew. How about the rest of the crew? The prepared the cabin, and got everyone off after the landing, no simple task in itself, however, they are not on the media's 'hero watch'. Sully did what he was paid to do, and in the process of saving his life he brought the rest of them along for the ride. In my book, a good pilot, not necessarily a hero.