The Great Global Warming Swindle

[bright eyed]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

First... let me say that global warming is occuring.. the question is how much is related to MAN...

If there was no global warming, Detroit would be next to a glacier.. a BIG one.. the Great Lakes were formed by glaciers.. they covered most of North America way back when... and they melted without any help for man...

The Earth has had many cycles of cold and warm... and it changes over many thousands of years.. man's contributions have only been about 100 or so... a very small timeframe to say we are causing some great catastrophy....

That being said... I do wish they would pass laws to prevent the amount of pollution we are putting in the air... the REAL problem is the health effects on the human race with all the crap... I can remember when I lived in London blowing my nose and having black soot all the time... the diesels spewed out so much you could not help but breath it in... so I don't much believe in the global warming as the models they use are crap (by their own admission).. but the dirty air can be SEEN...

Yes - the earth has cycles of cold/warm but the current change is spiking due to human activity, it's not occuring over time like the others have...and I totally agree w/ your second point - the back and forth is secondary to the fact that cancer rates are way up, kids are getting autism at astounding rates and americans are grossly overweight...we are junking up our earth and our health!

I once heard a native american say how she's not worried about the planet - the planet will be fine - it's the people who have to worry - for a while i didn't totally get what she meant - then the other day after I saw a discovery channel on the pre-dinosaur eras (w/ my daughter of course) i "got it" - the huge changes between toxic (for us) levels of co2 and eras of too much o2 (for us) have existed and the earth will adapt - it is just a question of whether we can adapt or survive it really...enter the thunderdome...

 

[USK Coastie]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Then again in the UN report everyone is so spun up about it says that C02 produced from animal husbandry generates more C02 than from all vehicles combined. ERGO as soon as everyone calling for wealth transfer ( a carbon tax or other fix by the US)becomes a vegan, I'll be willing to listen to there BS. Buying your way out with cardon credits does not count.

One more thing, anyone watching the receding polar caps on MARS?? Appears they are experiencing global warming also. I'm sure some will blame the eeeeeevil conservitives for that one too. Perhaps the source of all our energy (the sun) is running a little hotter these days and hence GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE. Humanity needs a crash program to develop and deploy a giant sunscreen in space.

 

[donheff]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I'm not sure what people mean when they say that efforts to curtail GW will be ineffectual. Do you mean that man won't be able to take action for political and social reasons? Or do you mean that action won't be effective.



The first problem is very real.

A bit of both. The forecasts say that CO2 levels are so elevated that temps will continue to rise even if we had the stomach to do everything we could technologically achieve. The bottom line is that we have to heat our homes and drive our cars. Even if we got really serious fast, temperatures would continue to rise for 50+ years or some such number. In addition, there appears to be no real commitment among the nations to move aggressively to curtail emissions. The US is the worst culprit and we are diddling around. The developing world is not going to cut off their futures to help us continue our profligate ways. So the people problem is huge and not going away.

By the time we get climatic effects disastrous enough to scare us into action (e.g. continuing, relentless, bad hurricane seasons; coastal flooding, blah, blah) we will be too far along for any quick palliatives. It takes a long time to turn a global weather engine around so the problems will continue for decades while we struggle to deal with them. Thus my view that we should focus on using our technology and smarts to try to learn how to adjust to a volatile climate.

I am not far from the greens in many respects -- I think we should adopt many of the changes they call for. I just think we should change the back story a bit. Talk about preventing GW raises false hopes with the potential for a backlash. Talk of national security can move us in the same direction without a backlash due to GW. In the meantime, we need to soften people up about the fact that our grandkids may be facing a more volatile planet. I suspect houses in the Outer Banks may continue to be valuable for a while but I sure wouldn't buy one with 50 years in mind. And people in vulnerable areas should plan for the future with the expectation that GW is real and will continue. E.g. we would have to be nuts to rebuild the low-lying areas in New Orleans unless we commit to a massive redesign of the dikes with GW in mind.

 

[donheff]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Humanity needs a crash program to develop and deploy a giant sunscreen in space.

You were joking but that is exactly the sort of program that we will begin exploring if the dire predictions are accurate. I am a technology optimist. I believe we will be able to engineer our way out of our problems unless we blow ourselves up or kill ourselves off with bio-weapons first. But the adaptation could prove pretty rocky for some of us or our descendants.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I notice that when you click on the link, the ad at the top of the page cycles between an ad for Shell Oil and Scottish Engergy.

The advertisers wouldn't affect the message, would they?

You shouldn't blame the oil companies for global warming ? After all they are only giving us what we vote for everyweek with our petrol purchases.

If you need someone to blame, blame the people with big cars/trucks/SUVs and people with big houses and poeple who just strive to have alot of stuff.

The consumerism lifestyle is what drives global warming, not the oil companies.

 

[Running_Man]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I dont care how much is related to man.

I'd just like to do what we can to slow it down. If the answer is "nothing", then lets just all step out into traffic right now. Or get onto developing warp drive.

Cuz our grandchildren wont be able to live here.

What the hell is this. this is the perfect political spin, politicians will be able to control all activity because it is affecting "global warming". This will of course create a whole new bueacracy for monitoring and taxing. Are we going to ban volcanic eruptions as well?

I see posts like this and I see a whole class of people BEGGING to have their behavior MONITORED AND CONTROLLED by a paid political hack who will have the ability to skirt the laws "in the interest of the people".

Where I live they were concerned a few years back about landfills filling up and banned yard waste. One of our leading state sponsors lived nearby my house and was observed taking his grass clippings and dumping them in the field behind my house. When confronted his response was -- they will decompose in less than a year what are you worried about?

 

[eridanus]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

One more thing, anyone watching the receding polar caps on MARS?? Appears they are experiencing global warming also. I'm sure some will blame the eeeeeevil conservitives for that one too. Perhaps the source of all our energy (the sun) is running a little hotter these days and hence GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE. Humanity needs a crash program to develop and deploy a giant sunscreen in space.

1) Climate change on Mars is irrelevant to climate change on Earth.

2) As far as I can find, the polar caps are melting on Mars because of spring, according to NASA.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/07aug_southpole.htm

"Like Earth, Mars has seasons that cause its polar caps to wax and wane. "It's late spring at the south pole of Mars," says planetary scientist Dave Smith of the Goddard Space Flight Center. "The polar cap is receding because the springtime sun is shining on it.""

 

[eridanus]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

You shouldn't blame the oil companies for global warming ? After all they are only giving us what we vote for everyweek with our petrol purchases.

If you need someone to blame, blame the people with big cars/trucks/SUVs and people with big houses and poeple who just strive to have alot of stuff.

The consumerism lifestyle is what drives global warming, not the oil companies.

Correct. We'll have to drastically change our western, consumerism, lifestyle and or develop new technologies.

 

[Khan]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Then again in the UN report everyone is so spun up about it says that C02 produced from animal husbandry generates more C02 than from all vehicles combined. ERGO as soon as everyone calling for wealth transfer ( a carbon tax or other fix by the US)becomes a vegan, I'll be willing to listen to there BS. Buying your way out with cardon credits does not count.

One more thing, anyone watching the receding polar caps on MARS?? Appears they are experiencing global warming also. I'm sure some will blame the eeeeeevil conservitives for that one too. Perhaps the source of all our energy (the sun) is running a little hotter these days and hence GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE. Humanity needs a crash program to develop and deploy a giant sunscreen in space.

How many years of data do we have on Martian Climate?

 

[Gumby]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

How many years of data do we have on Martian Climate?

About 30, since the Viking landers.

 

[laurence]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I think the political will is lacking because GW won't cause drastic negative effects for people in 1st world countries. Waterworld is NOT going to happen! Where people will be most effected is places like Africa through famine when rainfall patterns change. A million dead in Africa doesn't do more than get Bono and the GAP to start a charity.

 

[donheff]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I think the political will is lacking because GW won't cause drastic negative effects for people in 1st world countries. Waterworld is NOT going to happen!

Probably. But if the Gulf Stream shut down, things could go south pretty fast. Of course, I live in DC so I am not betting on such a dour scenario. Now that the gun laws are overruled I can blow my head off in peace at home instead of moving to rural Montana.

 

[Texas Proud]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I once heard a native american say how she's not worried about the planet - the planet will be fine - it's the people who have to worry - for a while i didn't totally get what she meant - then the other day after I saw a discovery channel on the pre-dinosaur eras (w/ my daughter of course) i "got it" - the huge changes between toxic (for us) levels of co2 and eras of too much o2 (for us) have existed and the earth will adapt - it is just a question of whether we can adapt or survive it really...enter the thunderdome...

I have been saying that for a long time when people give me gloom and doom.. I just say the planet will 'get rid of us' if need be, but will cotinue to go on with whatever is living at the time..

 

[ERD50]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Humanity needs a crash program to develop and deploy a giant sunscreen in space.

You can take the 'winkies' away from that. The idea has been proposed, and as far out as it sounds, might be the simplest, most expedient 'solution'.

Send up a satellite that stays in orbit between the earth and the sun. This satellite unfurls a big light blocking screen. It would only need an apparent size large enough to block 2% or 3% of the sun's rays, and we get an offset to all the global warming. It would just look like a little black dot on the sun.

Donheff may be right - some technology solution like this may be the only hope.

-ERD50

 

[sgeeeee]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

You shouldn't blame the oil companies for global warming ? After all they are only giving us what we vote for everyweek with our petrol purchases.

. . .

That may be true. It's just as true that you shouldn't blame tobacco companies for people smoking. Still, if they spend money and produce psuedo science to prevent society from improving, we can blame them for that.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

It would just look like a little black dot on the sun.

or they could use some kind of a huge stencil and sell advertising.

 

[Running_Man]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I think the political will is lacking because GW won't cause drastic negative effects for people in 1st world countries. Waterworld is NOT going to happen! Where people will be most effected is places like Africa through famine when rainfall patterns change. A million dead in Africa doesn't do more than get Bono and the GAP to start a charity.

Please does anyone think Al Gore really believes his own hype? It is just an easy method to score political points. Noone who truly believed mankind was going to use fossil fuels to cause the destruction of mankind would fly private jets to give speeches and live in a house consuming more electricity per year than the average American uses in a decade while exhorting the use of sweaters in your personal life to be able to turn down the thermostat.

What is the politcal solution you seek? Ceasation of cattle farming and use of cars? Required flourescent bulbs. Banning of all fires in the world? How would anyone who believed this be able to invest in stocks as the implementation of a global warming policy would be a huge drag on the economy, corporations and their spending. Basically the world would be implementing a socialist planned economy for the controll of GW.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

That may be true. It's just as true that you shouldn't blame tobacco companies for people smoking. Still, if they spend money and produce psuedo science to prevent society from improving, we can blame them for that.

To rephrase what I posted before. The problem is not so much with the oil companies as with us. The solution is not with the oil companies but with us.

Your irritation and anger at the oil companies is misplaced. So if you want to roll back global warming and oil company transgretions then fight for smaller houses and smaller cars and a more green lifestyle.

To do otherwise is to be a hypocrite.

Or to put it another way, if you want to drive a big SUV then you need the likes of Exxon and should act accordingly. To complain about how Exxon serves you is just not well thought out.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I see, its all a vast left wing conspiracy. Nothing to see here. Nothing to worry about. Just a bunch of eggheads with political aspirations unnecessarily waving their arms around while...hmm...only people with good reason to not want this made into an issue say that its not an issue.

 

[JohnEyles]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Grasshopper, what is the sound of one moron posting ?

 

[MasterBlaster]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Well when you have nothing intelligent to say or to add you can start with the name calling.

That will really get the intelligent dialog going.

 

[sgeeeee]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

. . .Your irritation and anger at the oil companies is misplaced. So if you want to roll back global warming and oil company transgretions then fight for smaller houses and smaller cars and a more green lifestyle.
. . .

I'm not irritated with the oil companies and I never said one word indicating that I thought global warming was their fault. That is entirely your own creation.

I pointed out where the ad revenue on the orignial url was coming from and asked if that could affect the message. Regardless of who is or is not responsible for global warming, the advertisers might have a bias.

Sheeeesh.

 

[unclemick]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Algae - that's the ticket - algae plus soluble iron in the south Pacific - they eat the heck outta CO2 molecules - photosynthesis and all that rot. Another memory failure - can't remember where I read that 40 or so years ago - Popular Science, Scientific American - somewhere.

Back when Cosby was young and used smoke, and fire and jello to vanquish the giant Chickenheart in Cleveland.

heh heh heh heh heh heh heh - name calling , name calling :, who me

 

[ERD50]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Algae - that's the ticket - algae plus soluble iron in the south Pacific - they eat the heck outta CO2 molecules - photosynthesis and all that rot. Another memory failure - can't remember where I read that 40 or so years ago - Popular Science, Scientific American - somewhere.

good call unclemick2. I had heard about this recently (Science Friday on NPR?), but forgot until you mentioned it.

Here's a link - not super complete, but there are a list of refs at the end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fertilization

-ERD50

 

[mb]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Algae - that's the ticket - algae plus soluble iron in the south Pacific - they eat the heck outta CO2 molecules - photosynthesis and all that rot. Another memory failure - can't remember where I read that 40 or so years ago - Popular Science, Scientific American - somewhere.

Back when Cosby was young and used smoke, and fire and jello to vanquish the giant Chickenheart in Cleveland.

heh heh heh heh heh heh heh - name calling , name calling :, who me

I recall hearing about this in the 80s back in grad school.

I don't think it is a good solution.

Seems like trying to fix one science experiment (the huge increase in burning fossil fuels over the last 150 years) with another (a huge experiment on changing the biochemistry of the oceans).

MB