Union Venting - Grrrr!!!

[Goonie]

Now, unions are not there to protect the workers like they were back then... now just a way to prevent the workers from being fired...

As a union member for over 30 years, I have to disagree. My union local has NEVER stood in the way of a JUSTIFIABLE firing! We've actually SUPPORTED justifiable firings! In fact we supported the firing of one of my (now former) co-w*rkers last July. He was a slacker, and he posed a threat, not only to the safety of his fellow employees, but also to their reputation. I am the one who approached mismanagement about the need to terminate him.

We always believed in an honest day's work, for an honest day's pay. He didn't hold those values. He was terminated, and the union refused to back him, because they we felt the firing was justifiable. He hasn't been the only one that has been terminated. Of the several who have been terminated, the union has only stood up against one firing.....it was not justifiable....the employee had done no wrong, had violated no rules, nothing.....it was simply a matter of some one in mismanagement having a personal vendetta.

As a union, we have ALWAYS 'policed' our own. Very rarely has mismanagement EVER had to discipline one of our members. If one of our union brothers or sisters was not performing up to standards and expectations, WE took the initiative to correct it. We didn't want it to tarnish our reputation, or hinder our ability to bargain for a fair and equitable contract. ( and "NO" we never threatened to break their legs or harm their loved ones....like in Hollywood movies! )

And for the most part, ALL of the local unions around here, act in the same manner. A lazy, inept employee is not only a detriment to the employer and the union....they are a hazard to the safety and well-being of their co-w*rkers, and they have not and will not be tolerated.

There may be some union locals that will protect lazy, inept members, but that is NOT the norm. It's just like kids...99.9% of the kids are good kids.......0.1% are bad apples. You hardly EVER here about the 99.9%....only the 0.1%! Same goes for unions and their membership.....for that matter, same goes for ALL workers!

BTW...I was a union member by MY choice....NOT by coercion or mandate. And I have never been a union "official" (pres., v.p., etc.), only a dues paying member. Ours was NOT a closed shop, however, 100% of eligible employees were (are) members, by their own choice.....THAT alone speaks volumes, IMHO!!! 8)

 

[Texas Proud]

Goonie...

A couple of points....

Unions DID resort to violence back in the day.... and even today are not immune to it.. look at what happens to 'scabs'... they have shown on TV some that have been threatened and their property vandalized...

Also, in NY, there are unions that are crime syndicates... it was the garbage union that put a (I believe) horses head in the bed of the guy from Waste Management when they were trying to get some of the contracts (hazy memory here...)

I think you misunderstand me when I say about getting rid of people... the domestic auto industry is bleeding cash... they need to downsize.. that means LAYING OFF PEOPLE... but, the union says, keep paying them... sorry if you don't like it.. I have read stories of some people getting paid three years and not working (not full salary mind you, but hey)...

So, the few that get laid off because they are bad or dangerous is a drop in the ocean..

BTW, the rules are different also... I had a friend who was in the power industry... he was white... if he made a racial remark he would have been fired instantly, but blacks made racial remarks all the time and nothing happened.... one guy was running a side business at work and nothing... it was because management did not want to go through the process of getting him fired... it was 'easier' to just get someone else in to do his work and hope he got bored and left...

 

[chinaco]

Unions emerged way back when the robber barons emerged and ruled the roost... a response used to balance power. They were violent... but so were the factory owners... Ever read about Carnegie or Rockefeller!

Bottom line... Unions helped to support (politically) labor laws that made america a more safe place to work. My father was a Union member (trades) and a Union Contractor (hired union). When he went into business for himself, he felt the union offered a ready labor pool of expereinced workers.

Very early on in life I belonged to a union for a while. Most co-workers were hard working... there were a few bad apples that spent more time trying to avoid work and stir things up. Those were usually the first people to get layed off when work tapered off (I was in construction).

I agree that things have changed. Labor Unions are on the ropes today because of international competition. Unions have not fully adjusted to the new change in ecomonics yet. And that international competition is internal also (imported workers). Labor Unions do help workers to collectively bargain. They will survive. But the bottom line is that there is international competition for the work. It has the effect of lowering wages until the other countries catch up economically with the US.

On a different note... Labor unions are highly political organizations. They have all of the flaws of other organizations.

 

[Texas Proud]

Interesting conversation with a coworker...

This is based in NY. He said that they were at a building and he looked up at the ceiling. There was a ceiling tile that was out of place. Since we are responsible for them, he decided to just move it and put it back in place. While up on the ladder a hammer came flying by him... he was doing 'union work' and he was NOT union...

And one from ME...

I was a sacker at a grocery store. It was union (btw, you can not find any more union people at stores down here because they priced themselves out of work).. I was graded a sacker and got a bit above minimul wage.. well, I was dealing with baby food and was good at throwing the little bottles up and catching them with my other hand and bagging them... well, one got away and hit the floor... I freaked out and jumped to clean up the glass... WELL, the manager of the store came RUNNING up to me yelling at me to not touch anything...

Seems that cleaning up the floor was a HIGHER pay scale than me and I could NOT be told to clean the floor (nor could I do it on my own!!)... Since we were busy and no 'janitor' was there, HE cleaned it up...

 

[Nords]

WELL, the manager of the store came RUNNING up to me yelling at me to not touch anything...
Seems that cleaning up the floor was a HIGHER pay scale than me and I could NOT be told to clean the floor (nor could I do it on my own!!)... Since we were busy and no 'janitor' was there, HE cleaned it up...

So how many more bottles did baggers break after that?

 

[chinaco]

I remember in my brief experience in construction... different unions were (obviously) protective of their turf. If I remember correctly, if you wanted something moved from point a to point b, a teamster had to drive the truck. There were other similar divisions of work that did not seem to make sense. Obviously it would not make sense for the plumber to do electrical work or vice versa... but some of the rules were geared toward nothing more than protecting certain unions turf. It all amounted to additional inefficiency and waste.


My brother worked for a while in the union. He would tell me stories about large construction jobs (like building a large nuclear power plant). People would show up and there was not enough work to do and they would sleep or play cards all day. The contractor did not care... they were getting a cut for every worker on the job.


I wonder if those days are gone now with the new competitive environment?

 

[runchman]

I wonder if this can be affecting the competitiveness of us auto companies

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

 

[chinaco]

I wonder if this can be affecting the competitiveness of us auto companies

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

It seems absurd. But hey... Where do I sign up!

 

[bow-tie]

I wonder if this can be affecting the competitiveness of us auto companies

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

I'm on the fence regarding the relevance/benefit of unions today, but in response to the above link, methinks this doesn't help either....

http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/05/news/companies/ford_execpay/index.htm

 

[Texas Proud]

So how many more bottles did baggers break after that?

I wasn't there long enough... I moved to the night and stocked... got paid $5 per hour (back when minimum was $2 something), but one guy on the team was pulling down $20 per hour... our work goal was 100 cases per hour for three people.. that is off the truck, cut open the box, price everything in the case and put on a dolly for the other to shelf... hard work IMO..

 

[runchman]

I'm on the fence regarding the relevance/benefit of unions today, but in response to the above link, methinks this doesn't help either....

http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/05/news/companies/ford_execpay/index.htm

An absurd amount of money for sure, and yet I wouldn't trade places with him. For folks in those positions, their jobs truly are 24/7. No thanks !

- John

 

[kumquat]

My first job was with Canadian provincial government department. We were non-union. A few years later our department was amalgamated with another (union) department and I became a union member, no vote, no nothing, just a 'you're in'. This was back in the 70's and inflation was > 10% so anual raises were pretty hefty. I was one of about 5 people in a job at the top of the scale. There were about 100 in the lowest scale (and I made about twice what they did) and another 100 or so in the middle. Fast forward to first contract, management offers x% across the board. Union demands (get this), pay cut at the top of scale to allow for larger %age at bottom. Management refuses. Strike vote passes and I'm expected to walk pickett line for a pay cut.

Ya, unions serve their members.

 

[Texas Proud]

Kumquat...

Yes.. they... do... NOT..

The union just came down to Houston to get the building cleaning companies unionized (which they did)... almost all of the 'strikers' were from OUT OF TOWN...

Then, when it was pointed out that most of the people working were part time because this was a second job to them... well, the union said 'there will be disruptions'... meaning they get thrown out...

The final deal (not sure) was they get an extra $1 per hour, eventually some medical they can not afford and the union gets dues and now can go to other cities and extort from others saying 'look what we did in Houston'... nobody cares about the people who got fired because they can not work a full 40 hours...

And BTW.. the top four companies were the only ones to sign the contract.. the 5th said NO... so I guess they will be moving up the ladder on 'largest cleaning firms' when the contracts run out...

 

[youbet]

The final deal (not sure) was they get an extra $1 per hour,

Actually, per the NYT, they're getting a $3.20 increase over three years going from $5.30/hr to $8.50/hr.

These days, it's pretty much impossible to treat people so badly that they're willing to join a union, especially in the non-skilled trades. What did you Texans do to get them so riled up? Chain them to their mops and buckets? Or drop your pants and poop on the floor just to laugh at them cleaning it up? Sheeeesh........you guys bad, bad, bad.....

Edited to add: Just noticed that the Washington Post gave the new salary level as topping out at $7.75, not $8.50 as the NYT said.

The 5,300 mostly female, mostly Latino janitors represented by the Service Employees International Union will see their wages rise from $5.30 per hour on average to $7.75 by Jan. 1, 2009. Their shifts will also lengthen to six hours, as opposed to four hours or less, over the next three years, according to the agreement. They will be offered health coverage in 2009 for $20 a month for individuals, $175 for families.

 

[runchman]

The 5,300 mostly female, mostly Latino janitors represented by the Service Employees International Union will see their wages rise from $5.30 per hour on average to $7.75 by Jan. 1, 2009. Their shifts will also lengthen to six hours, as opposed to four hours or less, over the next three years, according to the agreement. They will be offered health coverage in 2009 for $20 a month for individuals, $175 for families.

The article continued, "The employers in these buildings, over the same 3 years, will gradually lose their ability to compete with their competitors using non-unionized cleaning crews. Officials estimate that 20% of these building residents will go out of business by the end of those 3 years....."

Ok so maybe the article didn't actually say that

- John

 

[Texas Proud]

Youbet...

It was the union that came down here with the goal of organizing them.... there was NOT an outcry from the group..

They did an excellent job of brow beating the companies and the owners of the buidings as they threatened to strike in other cities if they 'objected'...

The vote was open, which leads to people voting for the union... it would not have passed if it was closed..

Almost all the people who were on the picket lines were from outside the city... ALL, repeat ALL the people that were arrested were employed by the union.. they were not even workers...

The increase I was saying is based on the belief that the minimum wage will increase.. I believe there is a clause that they must get at least $1 over minimum... but had not heard the final outcome because the guy I was getting the info quit...

 

[youbet]

Youbet...

It was the union that came down here with the goal of organizing them.... there was NOT an outcry from the group..

They did an excellent job of brow beating the companies and the owners of the buidings as they threatened to strike in other cities if they 'objected'...

The vote was open, which leads to people voting for the union... it would not have passed if it was closed..

Almost all the people who were on the picket lines were from outside the city... ALL, repeat ALL the people that were arrested were employed by the union.. they were not even workers...

The increase I was saying is based on the belief that the minimum wage will increase.. I believe there is a clause that they must get at least $1 over minimum... but had not heard the final outcome because the guy I was getting the info quit...

The tactics used by the SEIU were typical including bringing in supporters and union employees from outside the area, threatening to strike in other municipalities and successfully soliciting Democratic Party political support. This is what usually happens. What doesn't usually happen is the union succeeding in being certified by the NLRB and winning it's first strike big time.

Management and owners had to have their collective heads up their arses for this to happen. Or, they were treating employees so poorly that it was a walk in the park for the SEIU folks to get them all fired up.

I'm not defending the union. I'm criticizing owners/managers. Isn't it amazing how arrogance can turn on inself?

 

[Texas Proud]

The tactics used by the SEIU were typical including bringing in supporters and union employees from outside the area, threatening to strike in other municipalities and successfully soliciting Democratic Party political support. This is what usually happens. What doesn't usually happen is the union succeeding in being certified by the NLRB and winning it's first strike big time.

Management and owners had to have their collective heads up their arses for this to happen. Or, they were treating employees so poorly that it was a walk in the park for the SEIU folks to get them all fired up.

I'm not defending the union. I'm criticizing owners/managers. Isn't it amazing how arrogance can turn on inself?

I work for one of those managers.... the SEIU picked them off one at a time.. and also used the people 'up north' against us... we kept saying NOT to sign the crap they wanted, but the people in NY are so used to unions they did sign... yes, it was the owners managers that played it wrong and got hosed...

I think the 'winner' (besides the union itself) is the 5th place cleaning company... they refused to get on board and now stand to win more contracts going forward... we will see how things go..

 

[sgeeeee]

My only real experience with unions was when I worked in the coal mines. At various times I worked on both sides -- management and union. We were mining a seam that was over 500 feet below the surface. There were lots of large multi-ton machines (shuttle cars, tractors, continuous miners, . . .)operating off of 440 volts. Cables snapping and bouncing all over the place. Roof bolting operations were going on constantly to keep the top from falling on us. The coal leaks methane gas, so you have to regularly inspect the face and make sure you have enough air flowing to disapate it. If you cut a corner, you can cause a terrible (even deadly) accident.

I can tell you that I would not want to work down there without a union. The company knew how much it cost to shut down and repair a frayed cable, how much it cost for an extra roof bolt, how much it cost to run blower and exhaust ductwork, . . . and how much it cost to burry a dead miner. They were definately not above making a financial tradeoff among any of those items. Union inspectors kept things honest and safe.

The unions elected their officers from among their ranks. These guys were often not among the best and brightest. A lot of the things they complained about and fought for were misguided. And the management-labor relationship was always strained and far from ideal. But the union was important to safety.

Some of the stories I hear people tell about union experiences have taken on the urban myth status. It's interesting when you hear the same story from people in 3 different states who don't know each other all claiming to know the guy this happened to. And does anyone ever wonder what dunderhead in management was responsible for negotiating the contract with the unions that allowed them to have one job classification for nose picker and a second classification for nose blower? The stories always indicate that the union is at fault for this, but someone from management -- in fact a management team -- signed off on that contract.

Unions are flawed. Management is worse.

 

[dumpster56]

Unions

Interesting situation with them and public education.

I have experience with unions in NJ. Look they have kept things honest. There now is a huge mess with the Teacher pension system finances. Funny though the unions were screaming 10 years ago about the trouble that was beginning when politicians stopped funding the pension during lean budget times. well it has come back to bite NJ in the arse today.

The union made it so I have a fair pension with bennies, which is NOT extravigant.

We hear how the unions have destroyed the learning process in the schools, sorry that is bull $hit.

Come down here to North carolina, there are laws against collective bargaining, There are NO UNIONS in the schools in North carolina. They pay teachers some of the lowest salaries in the country and some of the lowest scores come from this state.

People must stop bashing the unions, especially down here, I love it I hear how the unions are destroying public education from people down here and I love to tell them there are none! No union rep in the building. Nothing. The state of NC runs the show!

 

[ERD50]

People must stop bashing the unions,

Wow, that is open minded! Hmmm, you must like unions, so no one else should say anything negative about them? OK, you convinced me, let's re-name this thread "Life through Rose Colored Glasses, but only *YOUR* Rose Colored Glasses - Alternate Views not Welcome". And let's go to a one-party political system while we're at it - no need for those pesky debates. [/satire]

Look a few posts up, squeeee discussed some benefits of unions were he worked.

I find squeeee's comments interesting. I never worked in a coal mine, but when I saw the media coverage of the latest coal mine disaster, it sure looked to me that the company could have added a lot of safety for a small marginal cost. IIRC, that mine was not all that deep (150 feet?), but it was a few miles long. It looked like a few more little safety areas, stocked with a few more O2 canisters would have done a lot. Also, if the few air shafts they had were made big enough to pass a man through (or at least an O2 canister), that would help. And, didn't it take something like 2 days to get heavy equipment to the site? Keeping heavy equipment within, say 4 hours of a site would certainly help.

Yes, all that would add cost, but %-wise I can't imagine it would be much. But, apparently it is more than amortizing the cost of a few dead miners (man, that is a harsh thing even to type). I doubt people would be too upset at paying, say 1% more for their electricity if they *knew* it was going towards safer working conditions for miners. But w/o that info, sure, people want electricity at the lowest possible rate.

I'm all for free markets, but they are not perfect. Something fell apart here, whether it was the unions not protecting their workers, lax govt regulations, or a lack of a free market so that mines with better safety attracted more workers.

-ERD50

 

[Nords]

Yes, all that would add cost, but %-wise I can't imagine it would be much. But, apparently it is more than amortizing the cost of a few dead miners (man, that is a harsh thing even to type).

Yeah, but when you have to bribe hire & train their replacements-- now you're talking real money.

Same logic as the military.

 

[kumquat]

And another story

http://www.forbes.com/home/wallstreet/2007/04/04/ing-teachers-union-biz-wallst-cz_nw_0404union.html

 

[youbet]

Some of the stories I hear people tell about union experiences have taken on the urban myth status.

Absolutely!

Management/Labor relations involves achieving reasonable balance over time to be successful. Generally this balance will not remain in steady state too long or be achieved without the pendelum swinging widely from extreme to extreme...... almost like national politics. So there are always plentiful anecdotal examples of excessive behavior by either management/owners or unions. And plentiful exaggerations as well!

Without a means for small scrimages to occur and shifts to take place over time, we'd wind up with extreme concentration of wealth and capital followed by eventual revolution.