Volunteering and liability

[jollystomper]

Good friend of mine --a wealthy trust funder--was driving for Uber just for fun. He suddenly realized that almost every one of his fares was a 28 year old young woman. Being alone in a car with them, he suddenly realized how much 'danger' he could be in and quit the next day.

One of my friends who drives for Uber has a dash camera to record the interior of the vehicle. He also has a sign saying "YOU ARE BEING RECORDED FOR EVERYONES PROTECTION", and tells his fares this when they contact him.

He hopes it will protect him. Interestingly, he says he loses 1-2 out of every 10 fares because of it.

 

[meierlde]

It should be noted that while carrying an uber fare uber provides the insurance, the issue has been while the app is open (presumably on duty) but with no fare who provides the insurance, I believe today Uber does since driving for uber etc shuts personal auto liability down. I suspect that in the mass of documents involved in getting onboard with uber such issues are covered. (You do read them all?)

this is how uber explains it on its web site. https://www.uber.com/drive/insurance/

However uber talks about a $1 million limit which IMHO is far to low.

 

[Senator]

I hate to pay money out of my own pocket to volunteer. I feel the range should provide it. I finally got an answer, and that is that we are not covered.
I'm going to work my next shift and then give notice. I belong to another range that pays their RO's minimum wage in order to consider them as employees so that they fall under the range insurance. I think I will switch my time over to them, and then donate the salary back to the range.

Where did you find that the RSOs are not covered?

I would find out what the insurance agent is that writes the policy and call them. I wold bet it is the NRA. Often, at many all-volunteer places, no one really knows what is happening.

Unless the range has no insurance at all, I suspect that the insurance company requires RSOs and the RSO is covered.

Then, call your homeowners insurance and see if you are covered for volunteer activities.

I suspect that this is typical Gun Range insurance.

https://mynrainsurance.com/club-insurance/gun-club
General Liability―Insures your club and its members against injury or damage with a variety of limits available up to $1 million per occurrence, up to $2 million per year, plus medical payments. Your club is also protected against claims of false advertising.

 

[Jerry1]

If you're implying that a range officer has little or no liability exposure, I disagree. If shooter X accidentally wounds or kills shooter Y, X will obviously be sued but any competent plaintiff layer will also sue the range officer, alleging that he or she failed to supervise X, knew or ought to have known that X was unsafe or unreliable, failed to take all reasonable steps to ensure Y's safety, etc. Even if those allegations are ultimately dismissed, in the meantime the range officer will incur significant legal expenses.

This (above bolded and underlined) is, to me, the most distressing thing. It's possible to walk through life and always do the right thing yet still be wiped out financially by the nature of our legal system. Anyone where a possible connection to the harm can be made will be sued. No burden, to my knowledge, exists that would mitigate this practice or pay damages to the wrongly (arbitrarily) accused.

 

[Milton]

Virtually all common law systems operate on a 'loser pays' basis, where an unsuccessful litigant is responsible for paying some or occasionally most of the other party's legal costs. That has some impact in deterring frivolous claims.

Most US states do not operate on this basis, which is one reason why your country is exceptionally litigious. More information here.

 

[Secondact]

The typical general liability policy includes volunteers under the "Who is Insured" section, while you are performing your duties. If you are injured, workers compensation coverage will not apply because you are not an employee.

 

[marko]

If you are worried about this, you better start worrying about cars crashing on the street in front of your home. You could be liable there too. Of if you give directions to someone and they crash later.

One would have to be completely nuts to preform this seemingly innocent task in today's environment. Driving liability, false accusations regarding adults/fellow teens, possible drug/alcohol use, use of power tools in untrained hands, possible electrical shock from inexperience/prior unsafe wiring,fire potential, inexperience/ plumbing waste into storm drains, broken pipes, to name a few.

Every other commercial on TV is coming from a 'slip and fall' lawyer. As my lawyer once told me "Anyone with $20 can sue you". And you don't really need a good reason. A lot of times it's just easier and cheaper to settle and that's the actual goal.

My company was once sued because we provided a part, that went on a part, that went on another part that someone misused and was hurt.

On another occasion, we were informed that a former employee was going to sue us for some innocuous claim. We were told that we could go to court, or we could just pay $10K right now and we'd never hear from them again. When we declined, they said "how about $500?"

IMO, it's not like years ago. At least not in my part of the country.
There's so many predators out there today who view anyone with a few bucks as an 'opportunity' who doesn't deserve his wealth in the first place.

 

[razztazz]

Every other commercial on TV is coming from a 'slip and fall' lawyer. As my lawyer once told me "Anyone with $20 can sue you". And you don't really need a good reason. A lot of times it's just easier and cheaper to settle and that's the actual goal.

My company was once sued because we provided a part, that went on a part, that went on another part that someone misused and was hurt.

On another occasion, we were informed that a former employee was going to sue us for some innocuous claim. We were told that we could go to court, or we could just pay $10K right now and we'd never hear from them again. When we declined, they said "how about $500?"

IMO, it's not like years ago. At least not in my part of the country.
There's so many predators out there today who view anyone with a few bucks as an 'opportunity' who doesn't deserve his wealth in the first place.

This says more about lawyers than anything else. As officers of the court they are supposed to refuse frivolous cases. Not having a good reason is grounds to flip off the fortune seeker. But like, who really brings these law suits...?

 

[OldShooter]

For those of you so concerned about personal liability lawsuits in non-employment, non-business situations: How many people do you personally know who have had this problem? For me, the answer is zero.

If your answer is not zero, then how many of your friends' situations involved costs or judgments that were not completely covered by insurance? How much were personal $$ losses of any significance?

I really don't think there are monsters under the bed, though I do buy an umbrella policy just for good luck. It does not, however, cover me when I am flying and it did not cover me when I was racing sports cars. AFIK no personal umbrella includes those coverages. Regardless, I consider my risks to be negligible. YMMV, of course.

 

[SheitlQueen]

I am a little ticked off... This establishment is very irresponsible. On top of it, they kept on telling you that they would check it, and maybe they were hoping you would forget about it?? I wouldn't go back there even for just one day. Yes, I agree, you should go a place that takes care of its people.

Exactly. I am not going to renew my membership, not so much because I'm ticked off at them, but because I've out grown it's usefulness to me. I will let them know that they are loosing another range officer (I know of at least two others that have left for the same reason) because of liability.They seem to be able to get new members to become range officers, so I doubt they will much care.

 

[SheitlQueen]

Where did you find that the RSOs are not covered?

I finally called the president at home and asked. He never responded when asked at meetings, it was always "we'll check on it and let you know".

I would find out what the insurance agent is that writes the policy and call them. I wold bet it is the NRA. Often, at many all-volunteer places, no one really knows what is happening.

Unless the range has no insurance at all, I suspect that the insurance company requires RSOs and the RSO is covered.

Then, call your homeowners insurance and see if you are covered for volunteer activities.

I know they have insurance, and I found out apparently it covers the officers of the range (President, vice prez, etc) but not Range Safety Officers.
I could go through all the hoops of calling the insurance personally (although they would probably tell me they won't talk to me since it isn't my insurance) and I could use my own insurance (but why would I want to pay for coverage to volunteer and have it be on MY insurance record) when it's much easier just to leave and work at a different range where such issues won't arise.

 

[SheitlQueen]

For those of you so concerned about personal liability lawsuits in non-employment, non-business situations: How many people do you personally know who have had this problem? For me, the answer is zero.

I don't intend to be the first one

I also think it shows a lack of respect and caring about volunteers if an organization is not willing to make sure their volunteers are covered.
Especially in activities that have an elevated risk of danger. Volunteering to take kids to the zoo isn't the same as working at a gun range.

 

[marko]

For those of you so concerned about personal liability lawsuits in non-employment, non-business situations: How many people do you personally know who have had this problem? For me, the answer is zero.

If your answer is not zero, then how many of your friends' situations involved costs or judgments that were not completely covered by insurance? How much were personal $$ losses of any significance?

Insurance is part of the problem in a way. I read somewhere that juries will award higher judgments when they know insurance is paying and the individual will not be hurt.
On TV locally, lawyers advertise: "...the person responsible is likely covered by insurance anyway..."

As far as personal knowledge, my late grandad was named in a spurious liability lawsuit; he had insurance (rare back then) but fought and won the case. A fellow up the street (I don't know him other than to chat) is currently in litigation on a liability case; not sure of his situation but he's quite wealthy so I'd guess he'd be insured. Another woman in town (I don't know her at all, so that may not fall under "personally know") lost a case last year; not sure of who paid out. She's fairly well off so even a few $100K wouldn't ding her too badly.

Insured or not, the aggravation, pain and stress of going through something like that is the real issue IMO. Who wants to leave themselves open to the possibility or risk and then spend hours with lawyers and insurance companies?

 

[marko]

This says more about lawyers than anything else. As officers of the court they are supposed to refuse frivolous cases. Not having a good reason is grounds to flip off the fortune seeker.

That would be refreshing wouldn't it!

 

[gauss]

For those of you so concerned about personal liability lawsuits in non-employment, non-business situations: How many people do you personally know who have had this problem? For me, the answer is zero.

If your answer is not zero, then how many of your friends' situations involved costs or judgments that were not completely covered by insurance? How much were personal $$ losses of any significance?

I really don't think there are monsters under the bed, though I do buy an umbrella policy just for good luck. It does not, however, cover me when I am flying and it did not cover me when I was racing sports cars. AFIK no personal umbrella includes those coverages. Regardless, I consider my risks to be negligible. YMMV, of course.

+1

I put this in the same category as "fear of identity theft" and "fear of probate court".

These fears have become ingrained in much of society but are not always called for IMHO.

In the past, I used to get caught up in many fears. I think FI and RE have given me the time and peace of mind to look into these issues more critically.

-gauss

 

[marko]

+1

I put this in the same category as "fear of identity theft" and "fear of probate court".

These fears have become ingrained in much of society but are not always called for IMHO.

Despite my personal experience I tend to agree. However with the OP volunteering at a gun club and (apparently) not being covered by the club's liability insurance would [-]make me think twice[/-] make it my last day there.

 

[gauss]

Despite my personal experience I tend to agree. However with the OP volunteering at a gun club and (apparently) not being covered by the club's liability insurance would [-]make me think twice[/-] make it my last day there.

+1 Agreed -- especially if this is not the norm at these locations.

 

[haha]

It's very sad that we have to think about such things; but unrealistic not to.

I wouldn't want to go back to the days when predators were largely free to molest children or women (or employers were free to expose workers to horrible risks) almost with impunity. At the same time, the pendulum has currently swung (too?) far the other way, and we would all be foolish to pretend that great liability risks don't exist.

Both Big Brothers Big Sisters and the Scouts are facing critical shortages of male volunteers ... one wonders whether they will still be around in 50 years time. While female volunteers are to some extent picking up the slack, boys (and girls, too) need male role models.

When I see a young woman on the street, I cross to the other side.

Life is good!

 

[SheitlQueen]

+1

I put this in the same category as "fear of identity theft" and "fear of probate court".

These fears have become ingrained in much of society but are not always called for IMHO.

In the past, I used to get caught up in many fears. I think FI and RE have given me the time and peace of mind to look into these issues more critically.

-gauss

I'm not worried about identity theft. The odds of these things happening are remote. But they CAN happen. We don't drive our cars without insurance and we don't leave our houses uninsured. How many of us have had our houses burn down or gotten into a serious car accident? Probably a very small minority. But you have coverage to be safe anyway. Which is why I think the range should provide insurance for the RO's.

 

[Milton]

I could go through all the hoops of calling the insurance personally (although they would probably tell me they won't talk to me since it isn't my insurance) and I could use my own insurance (but why would I want to pay for coverage to volunteer and have it be on MY insurance record) when it's much easier just to leave and work at a different range where such issues won't arise.

I fully agree with all of the above; and you are completely right about the lack of respect they are showing for volunteers.

Senator seems to believe that you should hope for the best (post 10) or try to find some way to work things out (post 28). No doubt he means well, and he is entitled to his opinion. But FWIW, I concur with your decision to simply bail and go somewhere else where you are properly appreciated and supported.

Most of us (have to) put up with occasional nonsense when we are paid employees; but there is no need to do so as a volunteer.

 

[Milton]

For those of you so concerned about personal liability lawsuits in non-employment, non-business situations: How many people do you personally know who have had this problem? For me, the answer is zero.

If your answer is not zero, then how many of your friends' situations involved costs or judgments that were not completely covered by insurance? How much were personal $$ losses of any significance?

I’ve seen many people named as defendants in non-employment, non-business situations. If you own or operate a car/boat/aircraft, own real property (icy driveway, etc.), own a dog, have a child (they cause any number of accidents), etc., the odds of facing a civil suit sometime in your lifetime are certainly not negligible.

You are correct about most defendants’ exposure being covered by insurance. That’s why (as I noted earlier) we should just try to act reasonably and lead our lives without becoming unduly fixated on potential liabilities. But do please purchase proper coverage.

 

[Senator]

I fully agree with all of the above; and you are completely right about the lack of respect they are showing for volunteers.

Senator seems to believe that you should hope for the best (post 10) or try to find some way to work things out (post 28). No doubt he means well, and he is entitled to his opinion. But FWIW, I concur with your decision to simply bail and go somewhere else where you are properly appreciated and supported.

Most of us (have to) put up with occasional nonsense when we are paid employees; but there is no need to do so as a volunteer.

Maybe it is because I have been in business for myself (in addition to a FT job) for many years and never got sued. I used to own a bar, a small landscape company, and now many rentals. I sold raccoons for pets that bit people. I had a dog that got hit running across a road, and the person that tried to save it got killed by a different car.

I would not want to be sued, and never have. I have sued several people myself. To run your life continuously worried about a lawsuit, you might as well stay in a bubble.

If you own a dog, you are statistically a 1,000,000x more likely to be sued than being an RSO at a gun range.

 

[marko]

My BIL drives for Uber and doesn't carry car insurance for it..... He also wasn't reporting the income or paying quarterlies on the income.

You might tell him that Uber files 1099s for him with the IRS.

 

[SheitlQueen]

You might tell him that Uber files 1099s for him with the IRS.

I did...he didn't seem to care. His wife, on the other hand, is having a fit about the whole thing.

 

[Senator]

I did...he didn't seem to care. His wife, on the other hand, is having a fit about the whole thing.

The 'beauty' of Uber is that after you claim the income, you have many expenses. I am not sure how you can actually make money with Uber.

You have many more miles than you actually drive. You have to get to the first stop, and drive back home. Plus any unpaid distance between stops is deductible. Any extra insurance, a cell phone, a cab camera, and adding a few passenger conveniences is also a cost.

There is a definite risk for getting robbed too.